The Character Balancing Act

[Deadman]

Hi All,

 

I just thought I would share the Balancing System that I have been using in my latest game.  It has been very well received and has done wonders to give me a measuring stick to pit villains against my PCs.  Please feel free to share your thoughts, suggestions or criticisms of this approach.  It is essentially a "Rule of X" method described in 6E2.

 

Balance Points

 

This is my way of attempting to balance the characters against each other and their opposition. Currently the Balance Points are set at 15 for starting characters. As the campaign progresses the Balance Points will increase allowing characters to become more powerful. This is dependent on the XP your character is awarded. For each 20 points of XP your character earns the Balance Points will increase by 1. So at 20XP you will be BP16, 40XP=BP17, 60XP=18, and so on. (I guess it pays to try to make every game

In an effort to balance the combat capabilities of characters I will break down combat abilities into the following five areas.  Keep in mind that I may impose other limitations on characters who work around this model (i.e.: Mentalists that use OMCV may be limited to 7 OMCV for balance, etc.).

 

·         Damage (DAM) – Overall Damage Classes in the character’s most powerful attack, though there could be a number of attacks at that level.

·         Offensive Ability (OCV) – Total OCV of the character with their most powerful attack. This could fluctuate with use of Martial Arts, Levels, etc.

·         Passive Defense (DCV) – Total DCV of the character when not using a maneuver that takes the place of an attack (Martial Dodge). This could fluctuate with use of Martial Arts, Levels, etc.

·         Active Defense (DEF) – Total PD/ED of the character when not using an ability that takes the place of an attack. Resistant Defenses are not included in the totals nor are Advantages that increase the usability (Hardened, Impenetrable, etc.)

·         Speed (SPD) – The Speed of the Character.

 

For purposes of this campaign the Average is assigned 3 Balance Points. Each 10 Active Points or 2DC increases or decreases this value by one. Half points are allowed but further divisions are not. All Characters are limited to 15 total Balance Points to start.

 

Averages are as follows:
DAM – 12DC Attacks (Each level is 2DC or 10 Points)
OCV – 9 (Each level is 2 OCV or 10 Points)
DCV – 9 (Each level is 2 DCV or 10 Points)
DEF – 30 (Each level is 5 PD/ED or 10 Points)
SPD – 5 (Each level is 1 SPD or 10 Points)

If you want to bump one area you will need to subtract from another area.

 

 

Examples:

 

~Brickman wants a higher DAM than the Campaign Average and wants a higher DEF. He decides on the following.

·         4 – 14DC (70 STR)

·         2.5 – OCV 8 (OCV 6 and 2 levels with HTH OCV)

·         1.5 – DCV 6 (DCV 6)

·         5 – DEF 40 (He decides to actually have a 42 PD and 38 ED)

·         2 – SPD 4

 

~Ninja Guy wants to be fast so he does the following

·         2 – 10DC (20 STR and Martial Arts with +4DC so a 10DC Martial Strike)*

·         4 – OCV 11 (OCV 9 and two levels w/ Martial Arts)#

·         4 – DCV 11 (DCV 9 and +2 DCV from Martial Strike)#

·         1 – DEF 20 (10 PD/ED and 10 PD/ED Armor)

·         4 – SPD 6
*Yes Ninja Guy does have an Offensive Strike which means he can do 12DC but it is at a -2 OCV to bring him back to the campaign average.
#While he technically can have an 11 OCV or DCV I put them on OCV for this purpose.

 

~Blaster Boy wants more damage so he breaks his out like so…

·         4 – 14DC (70 Point Multipower)

·         3.5 – OCV 9 (OCV 8 and one level with MP)

·         2.5 – DCV 8 (DCV 8)

·         2 – DEF 25 (5 PD/ED and a 20 PD/ED Forcefield)

·         3 – SPD 5

 

The Balance Points are how I begin to come to a decision on if a character is to be allowed in the game.  I also take into account the construction of powers, conception and overall feel.  I will not allow characters who are constructed in a way that abuses the system or tries to min-max to the point of including frivolous limitations.  In other words no “Not in Magnetic Fields” or “Not in Vacuum” for a -1/4 limitation.  I adhere to the philosophy that if it isn’t really a limitation then it isn’t worth points.

 

With that said I do allow extensive use of the “Unified Power” limitation.  This is a Mutant game and assigning this to all of your “Mutant Powers” within a specific concept is justified.  Keep in mind that a Drain that targets one of your Unified Powers will also subtract from the others so be careful.

 

The limitations for DCV or defenses are in effect if your character can launch an attack in that phase.  If a defensive power takes the place of an attack (i.e: Martial Dodge, Martial Block, etc.) I will allow higher levels than normal.  For example if your character normally has a 10 DCV and is in balance but also possesses the Martial Dodge maneuver it is okay that he has a 15 DCV when using it because it takes the place of his attack.

 

Note: Keep in mind that Martial Arts are part of your character while Standard Maneuvers are not. Therefore martial arts abilities are taken into account for your character’s power level.

 

I will also be looking into other Characteristics, Powers or Abilities which give the character an unfair advantage. No fair loading up on STUN and REC to compensate for your relatively low defenses. I strongly adhere to Character Conception.

There is some trade off with certain Archetypes. I will allow Bricks to have higher STUN and REC scores but won’t allow that combined with High DEX scores. Conversely I will allow Martial Artists to have higher DEX scores but balance it against their STUN/CON/REC. Blasters and Mentalists have the benefit of variety with their capabilities which is an asset unto itself so I will scrutinize their other Characteristics accordingly.

[Steve]

My current superhero campaign uses the method for balancing characters written up in the "Gestalt" campaign setting by Scott Bennie, which uses Speed as a control number to determine the limits on other character abilities. It's worked well for me so far.

 

In regards to DEF, how are you planning to deal with Damage Reduction and Damage Negation? Those two powers will have a big impact on defensive ability if there is no corresponding modification of PD/ED.

[Deadman]

With regard to Damage Reduction/Negation I use the Active Points of the "Normal" version (meaning that again Resistant Protect has no bearing).

 

For Example:

 

Rockboy

 

DAM - 3 - (60 STR)

OCV - 2.5 - (6 OCV and 2 levels with HTH OCV)

DCV - 1.5 - (6 DCV)

DEF - 6 - (15 PD/ED and 50% Physical/Energy Damage Reduction and -1 DC Physical/Energy Damage Negation) [basically he has 30 Active Points of standard Defense, 40 Active Points of Damage Reduction and 10 Active Points of Damage Negation which is above the 60 Active Point average by 20 Points so +2 Balance Points]

SPD - 2 - (4 Speed)

 

I hope this answers your question.

[Steve]

How do powers like Growth, Shrinking, Density Increase and Desolidification affect BP?

 

How do exotic defenses like Flash Defense or Power Defense affect BP?

 

Is there any limitation on a non-Mentalist buying up their DMCV?

[Surrealone]

Hi All,

 

I just thought I would share the Balancing System that I have been using in my latest game.  It has been very well received and has done wonders to give me a measuring stick to pit villains against my PCs.  Please feel free to share your thoughts, suggestions or criticisms of this approach.  It is essentially a "Rule of X" method described in 6E2.

 

Balance Points

 

This is my way of attempting to balance the characters against each other and their opposition. Currently the Balance Points are set at 15 for starting characters. As the campaign progresses the Balance Points will increase allowing characters to become more powerful. This is dependent on the XP your character is awarded. For each 20 points of XP your character earns the Balance Points will increase by 1. So at 20XP you will be BP16, 40XP=BP17, 60XP=18, and so on. (I guess it pays to try to make every game

In an effort to balance the combat capabilities of characters I will break down combat abilities into the following five areas.  Keep in mind that I may impose other limitations on characters who work around this model (i.e.: Mentalists that use OMCV may be limited to 7 OMCV for balance, etc.).

 

·         Damage (DAM) – Overall Damage Classes in the character’s most powerful attack, though there could be a number of attacks at that level.

·         Offensive Ability (OCV) – Total OCV of the character with their most powerful attack. This could fluctuate with use of Martial Arts, Levels, etc.

·         Passive Defense (DCV) – Total DCV of the character when not using a maneuver that takes the place of an attack (Martial Dodge). This could fluctuate with use of Martial Arts, Levels, etc.

·         Active Defense (DEF) – Total PD/ED of the character when not using an ability that takes the place of an attack. Resistant Defenses are not included in the totals nor are Advantages that increase the usability (Hardened, Impenetrable, etc.)

·         Speed (SPD) – The Speed of the Character.

 

This empirical, objective model seems to have gaping holes.  As an example of what I mean, note that it focuses on combat stats/capabilities and completely fails to consider flexibility.

 

To wit:

How would you handle a completely average (or below) 2 SPD, 3 OCV, 3 DCV character with a cosmic VPP ... who either doesn't bother to attack the villains ... or who  relies on AoE to hit?  He can erect the appropriate defense (or simply avoid combat with full invis, desolidification, etc.) as appropriate.  Sure he's not fast as the others ... or a heavy hitter ... but he can bring the RIGHT thing to bear and pick his timing, approach, etc. -- and can potentially be the nastiest on the team if played well (especially if the team uses the Teamwork skill and this character plays a support role to defend/augment the others on the team ... or help maximize their capabilities).

 

As I read it:

You indicated that you "will scrutinize their other Characteristics accordingly" when it comes to those who "have the benefit of variety with their capabilities which is an asset unto itself".  This means you completely ignore your empirical, number-based system/model and become subjective for anything that doesn't fit your model.

 

​If you're going to be subjective in some cases ... then why bother with an objective approach, at all? It seems far more fair to (and easier for) all players involved if you are subjective with everyone (if you're going to be subjective, at all) -- rather than singling out some characters and not others just because your empirical, objective model is incomplete. 

 

Put another way -- why aren't you either objective with everyone ... or subjective with everyone?  Isn't anything else less than fair to your players due to you treating some one way and others another way?

[Hyper-Man]

While I applaud the effort that goes into creating any such systems, I think END needs to be factored in as well as because staying power beyond 1-2 Turns can be just as important as all the other measurable numbers.  I have yet to see a system like this that can handle my rookie version of Superman who is NOT a world beater at this level but typically gets counted as one.

 

HM

[Deadman]

This empirical, objective model seems to have gaping holes.  As an example of what I mean, note that it focuses on combat stats/capabilities and completely fails to consider flexibility.

 

To wit:

How would you handle a completely average (or below) 2 SPD, 3 OCV, 3 DCV character with a cosmic VPP ... who either doesn't bother to attack the villains ... or who  relies on AoE to hit?  He can erect the appropriate defense (or simply avoid combat with full invis, desolidification, etc.) as appropriate.  Sure he's not fast as the others ... or a heavy hitter ... but he can bring the RIGHT thing to bear and pick his timing, approach, etc. -- and can potentially be the nastiest on the team if played well (especially if the team uses the Teamwork skill and this character plays a support role to defend/augment the others on the team ... or help maximize their capabilities).

 

As I read it:

You indicated that you "will scrutinize their other Characteristics accordingly" when it comes to those who "have the benefit of variety with their capabilities which is an asset unto itself".  This means you completely ignore your empirical, number-based system/model and become subjective for anything that doesn't fit your model.

 

​If you're going to be subjective in some cases ... then why bother with an objective approach, at all? It seems far more fair to (and easier for) all players involved if you are subjective with everyone (if you're going to be subjective, at all) -- rather than singling out some characters and not others just because your empirical, objective model is incomplete. 

 

Put another way -- why aren't you either objective with everyone ... or subjective with everyone?  Isn't anything else less than fair to your players due to you treating some one way and others another way?

 

Obviously the "gaping holes" that you elude to are filled by the simple statement "I also take into account the construction of powers, conception and overall feel."  I also state that this is "an effort to balance the combat capabilities of characters" it isn't intended as all-inclusive.  I completely understand that there are creative players out there who wish to do things outside the box.  With this said, my games include combat which means that a player who makes a character that has no combat capabilities is going to be missing out on a large part of the game and not help the team in this regard.  If you are speaking about a character that has no damage dealing abilities then he would still be using Active Points to create his other powers.  That would fill in where the DAM portion would be.

 

There is a subjective element to every character and this model is merely a starting point.  So to your point I am subjective with everyone.  There are a great deal of game related elements that this model doesn't touch on (Endurance, Initiative, Variety, etc.).  This is the subjective portion and some characters will require more of it than others.  In your example of a VPP user (something that I am very skeptical of to begin with) I would base most things on the control cost or what he could put into any particular power.  I also require all of my VPP users to construct a sheet of powers that they may use in a game and they can only go outside of that with permission during the game.  If someone relies on AoE to hit there is a specific advantage tied to that which alters the Active Point cost.

 

I have been playing this game for a very long time and feel that I personally don't need it to weed out abusive characters.  On the other hand it gives me a way to show the players where their characters strengths are and where they may be lacking where combat is considered.  There are all types of gamers out there and it is important for a GM to not let a min-maxing, rules-lawyer ruin the game for everyone.  It is hard enough to balance gameplay with everyone without something like that entering into the picture.

 

Thank you for your input,

[Surrealone]

I personally feel that, if at the heart of it you're fundamentally subjective (as are all good GM's), then you don't need the pretense of objectivity to justify your decisions or to help preclude min-maxing and/or rules lawyering.  You're the GM, after all...

 

That said, if the approach is one you find beneficial, then by all means, enjoy and use it.

[Deadman]

How do powers like Growth, Shrinking, Density Increase and Desolidification affect BP?

 

How do exotic defenses like Flash Defense or Power Defense affect BP?

 

Is there any limitation on a non-Mentalist buying up their DMCV?

 

Those powers are dealt with based on their impact to combat.  Meaning that the STR that Growth confers (and other characteristics) would be applied to the system to determine his level.  Similarly, the DCV that Shrinking confers would be applied to that.  Desolidification is dealt with as a defense that takes the place of an attack.  Now if the character is able to affect the physical world while desolid that would be a decision I would have to make outside of the system.

 

Exotic defenses are brushed over as "other" and I would deal with them on a case by case basis.

 

Not until they hit the ceiling that they have set with their DCV.  If a character had a 5 DCV but an 8 DMCV he would then need to set his "DCV" score higher than his actual score would normally be.

 

While I applaud the effort that goes into creating any such systems, I think END needs to be factored in as well as because staying power beyond 1-2 Turns can be just as important as all the other measurable numbers.  I have yet to see a system like this that can handle my rookie version of Superman who is NOT a world beater at this level but typically gets counted as one.

 

HM

 

You're absolutely right.  One of the things that I do while deciding whether a character should be allowed in the campaign is go by the rule of 2.  Meaning that very few combats last more than 2 turns in a superheroic game.  If a character has enough END to support him for that amount of time using standard attacks I call him good.  I find that unless a character has an enormous defense (either passive or active) they rarely get past that point.  If they don't have enough END to get to that point, they may want to look at their character's END.  This, of course, does not address circumstances where the character is throwing Multi-attacks or pushing all of the time.  I try to take that into account as well but do so during my evaluation of the character.

 

Thank you both for your comments,

[Deadman]

I personally feel that, if at the heart of it you're fundamentally subjective (as are all good GM's), then you don't need the pretense of objectivity to justify your decisions or to help preclude min-maxing and/or rules lawyering.  You're the GM, after all...

 

That said, if the approach is one you find beneficial, then by all means, enjoy and use it.

 

I agree whole-heartedly but I have found that this system really helps with new or less experienced players and also keeps those rules lawyers from feeling that I am somehow biased against their character.  "What do you mean that my 80 STR, 50 PD/ED, 6 SPD, 12 OCV powered armor guy isn't allowed?  He is under the points."  There it is in black and white, right?

 

Oh, and I never said I was a good GM.  You'd have to ask my players that.

[Steve]

Does KB Resistance figure in anywhere as a BP adjuster?

 

In regards to Growth and Density Increase, since they also provide defensive abilities, they seem to weigh on total BP more. However, since Growth also reduces DCV, that power would be less of a BP increase, but I haven't run numbers to see how much each level of Growth is worth in BP.

 

How about abilities like Regeneration or Healing? Would they add to defense?

 

How would Aid or Absorption figure into things?

[Surrealone]

Or Desolidification?

[bigdamnhero]

I like it!  I typically do an eyeball estimation along these lines, but this is a much more methodical and thought-out method. I typically give players a range for abilities ala 6e1 p35; but I've found that means my players usually work to have everything at or near the top of the range, which defeats the point and limits variety. So I like the idea of forcing them to make tradeoffs. And yeah, obviously there are a lot of creative powers that will fall outside these guidelines, but at least it gives you a way to compare the "usual suspects" as it were.

 

A few observations:

 

Resistant Defenses are not included in the totals nor are Advantages that increase the usability (Hardened, Impenetrable, etc.)

I don't get the point of this. A character with 20 points of Resistant, Hardened PD is far tougher than one with 20 points on nonresistant PD. Or do you not have a lot of Killing Attacks in your games? Why not just use AP?

 

For purposes of this campaign the Average is assigned 3 Balance Points.

Seems liek you could just as easily make them 0 with values being positive or negative; then each starting character has to zero out? Works out the same of course, but might be easier to explain. And that way any NPC with a negative score is weaker than the PCs, and NPC with a positive score is more powerful than the PCs (before adding XP of course).

 

Each 10 Active Points or 2DC increases or decreases this value by one.

So if they're not the same, which controls? Say I have an attack with Advantages that don't add to the DC, so my AP cost is higher than my DCs?

 

I will not allow characters who are constructed in a way that abuses the system or tries to min-max to the point of including frivolous limitations.  In other words no “Not in Magnetic Fields” or “Not in Vacuum” for a -1/4 limitation.

I'll sometimes allow stuff like that just to see the look on the player's face when I actually throw that situation at them. My policy on Limitations (and Complications) is that if you put it on your character sheet you're telling me you want it to come up in game, so don't get pissed at me when it does. But that's extraneous to this system, since you're balancing AP/DC, not RP.

 

I will also be looking into other Characteristics, Powers or Abilities which give the character an unfair advantage. No fair loading up on STUN and REC to compensate for your relatively low defenses. I strongly adhere to Character Conception.

Well, if my Character Conception is that my character has low Def, but can soak up a lot of STUN before going down, or RECovers quickly, then I don't see that as an unfair advantage - I am paying points for it after all. So it seems like you'd need to have some way to take that into account in your balancing system.

[bigbywolfe]

Or Desolidification?

He already answered that.

[Asperion]

How would you handle enhanced senses? With the right mods and creativity, they can greatly exceed their low point cost.

[Surrealone]

He already answered that.

It wasn't clear to me what was meant by "Desolidification is dealt with as a defense hat takes the place of an attack." -- which is why I inquired about it, specifically.

 

Unlike Martial Dodge (as outlined in the original post), one can passively use Desolidification as a defense (during one's Phases as well as during segments on which one has a Held Action) and still attack after something has passed through him/her (provided s/he hasn't already consumed his/her Action) -- specifically because Martial Dodge counts as an Attack Action ... but turning on Desolidification (or simply standing there with it already on) is NOT an Attack action.

 

Example:

Consider that a high-DEX character attacks our Desolid hero on our Desolid hero's phase (or on a Segment across which s/he is holding an action).  The attack passes through harmlessly.  Our Desolid hero then half-moves up to his/her attacker, drops his/her Desolidification, and whops his/her attacker in the very same Phase.  (Or, have him/her drop the Desolidification, then half-move and attack -- your choice.)  That wouldn't be possible if our hero had to use his/her action to Martial Dodge the attack from the high-DEX character, as the Martial Dodge would count as an Attack Action and our hero wouldn't have an Action to take on the same Phase.

 

I hope this explains why it wasn't clear to me what Deadman meant with his answer -- since the "defense that takes the place of an attack" example he gave in his original post ... entails maneuvers that count as Attack Actions ... while Desolidification's use does not.  

 

So what's the math that translates Desolidification into a defense?  Convert its Active points to however much rPD/rED it'd buy and call it that?  Divide it by the cost of Damage Negation and call it that many levels of Damage Negation?  Something else?  I think Growth and Shrinking were adequately considered when asked about, but I think the response given on Desolidification didn't quite make sense ... or I just didn't understand it.

[Deadman]

Does KB Resistance figure in anywhere as a BP adjuster?

 

In regards to Growth and Density Increase, since they also provide defensive abilities, they seem to weigh on total BP more. However, since Growth also reduces DCV, that power would be less of a BP increase, but I haven't run numbers to see how much each level of Growth is worth in BP.

 

How about abilities like Regeneration or Healing? Would they add to defense?

 

How would Aid or Absorption figure into things?

 

I don't count KB Resistance in as it doesn't figure into the standard combat formula in my opinion.  Can it be very useful?  Absolutely but it acts more as a secondary defense against secondary effects of damage.

 

I haven't actually worked out the BP per level of Growth or DI but a character could end up with several different BP levels if he is capable of shifting to many different forms.  All things that effect the five levels should be accounted for so for example Growth, at the 25 point level confers +15 STR, +3 PD/ED, and effectively -2 DCV.  So the BP would be +1.5 DAM, +0.5 DEF and -1 DCV.

 

I also don't count Recuperative abilities into the BP though I can see how that could be a major failing of the system as a whole.  Ultimately I don't think Regeneration will amount to much but Healing could play a big factor.  In the grand scheme of things I think that Healing would be one of those items that takes the place of an attack but instead of damaging an enemy it would heal an ally.  Seems to work out with the same BP as DAM all things considered..

 

I like it!  I typically do an eyeball estimation along these lines, but this is a much more methodical and thought-out method. I typically give players a range for abilities ala 6e1 p35; but I've found that means my players usually work to have everything at or near the top of the range, which defeats the point and limits variety. So I like the idea of forcing them to make tradeoffs. And yeah, obviously there are a lot of creative powers that will fall outside these guidelines, but at least it gives you a way to compare the "usual suspects" as it were.

 

A few observations:

 

I don't get the point of this. A character with 20 points of Resistant, Hardened PD is far tougher than one with 20 points on nonresistant PD. Or do you not have a lot of Killing Attacks in your games? Why not just use AP?

 

Seems liek you could just as easily make them 0 with values being positive or negative; then each starting character has to zero out? Works out the same of course, but might be easier to explain. And that way any NPC with a negative score is weaker than the PCs, and NPC with a positive score is more powerful than the PCs (before adding XP of course).

 

So if they're not the same, which controls? Say I have an attack with Advantages that don't add to the DC, so my AP cost is higher than my DCs?

 

I'll sometimes allow stuff like that just to see the look on the player's face when I actually throw that situation at them. My policy on Limitations (and Complications) is that if you put it on your character sheet you're telling me you want it to come up in game, so don't get pissed at me when it does. But that's extraneous to this system, since you're balancing AP/DC, not RP.

 

Well, if my Character Conception is that my character has low Def, but can soak up a lot of STUN before going down, or RECovers quickly, then I don't see that as an unfair advantage - I am paying points for it after all. So it seems like you'd need to have some way to take that into account in your balancing system.

 

With regard to Resistant Defenses (and Hardened, Impenetrable, Exotic Defenses, etc.) they protect against other types of damage that are outside my standard damage formula.  I do generally look to see that a character has some resistant defenses so that he doesn't end up dead after one altercation with a thug with a gun.  But ultimately it is up to the player to understand (with my input of course) that having no Resistant defenses is a bad idea.  I find it far easier to simplify things by using just raw PD/ED scores.  This decision was made easier with the change in the rules that made the Stun Multiplier on Killing Attacks 1-3 rather than 1-5.

 

You're absolutely right, I could have used 0 as the baseline but I hate negative numbers.  Personal preference I guess.

 

I only take into account Advantages which impact Damage directly, or the ability to hit with an attack.  Makes things easier.  If they want to add Personal Immunity or Reduced Endurance it helps them but doesn't do anything to how they hit or how much damage they do.

 

I do the same thing occasionally but I just don't like the practice of that.  I don't want to have to throw Lodestone or a Magnetron in every 4th adventure to make them pay for something they did to save a few points.

 

You bring up a great point with this and it is something I may have to deal with in the future.  This is the first campaign that I am using it and haven't worked out all of the kinks admittedly.  I ran into an effectiveness spreadsheet a while back and though it took many of the things that you and others have brought up into account, it was just overly complicated.  I am going for simplicity and usability and so far it has worked out pretty well.

 

Thank you both for your input.  This is exactly the type of dialogue that I had hoped for.

[Deadman]

How would you handle enhanced senses? With the right mods and creativity, they can greatly exceed their low point cost.

 

Enhanced senses, while certainly useful, don't really fit into the standard combat formula.  Now if they decide they are going to use those to add a Naked Advantage for attacks (like Armor Piercing for example) that would factor in.

 

It wasn't clear to me what was meant by "Desolidification is dealt with as a defense hat takes the place of an attack." -- which is why I inquired about it, specifically.

 

i.e. Does this mean he takes the active points in Desolidification, divides it by the point cost of Resistant Defense, and then computes how much resistant PD/ED it'd be worth?

OR does it mean he takes the active points in the power that the Desolidification negates and computes how many damage classes it's worth and treats it as Damage?

OR something else?

 

i.e. What's the actual math, here, that converts Desolidification as a defense into something usable within the PD/ED weighting, above, for balance comparisons???

 

What I meant by saying a Defense that takes the place of an attack is this.  If a Defense (whether Desolidification, Martial Dodge, Martial Block, Barrier or whatever) prevents the character from attacking it can pass the BP level as long as the character is impeded by it as well.  In the case of Desolidification a character can't effect the real world either so it becomes a wash.  In the case of Martial Dodge (or Block) the character essentially gives up his attack action to make himself much harder to hit.  But it only lasts until his next phase.  Barrier is a bit trickier but since a character can't attack through his own Barrier it serves the same purpose.

 

Now as I said previously, if the character specifically buys powers to work around this it becomes a different story.  I would have to deal with that on a case by case basis and balance it accordingly.

 

Make sense?

[Surrealone]

I only take into account Advantages which impact Damage directly, or the ability to hit with an attack.  Makes things easier.  If they want to add Personal Immunity or Reduced Endurance it helps them but doesn't do anything to how they hit or how much damage they do.

 

Food for thought:

​Personal Immunity can absolutely be used to amazing effect to impact how someone hits. 

 

Consider:

Our Desolid hero, from above, can control matter at the atomic level -- which allows him to interleave the particles of his being into the spaces between the particles that make up atoms (hence his Desolidification).  His ability also allows him to move matter around, at will -- and one of his tricks is to create a momentary vacuum in a given space.  He is OCV 3 with low natural/normal defenses but he's got the weird stuff going on.  His vacuum attack basically boils the blood of living beings within it for one second, doing little/no BODY but a pile of system shock (STUN).

 

The attack power would look like this:

67 Active, 33 Real

Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (NND w/ defense being able to exist in vacuum [i.e. Life Support: Safe Environment - Low Pressure/Vacuum and Self-Contained Breathing]; All Or Nothing; +1/2), +10 Increased STUN Multiplier (+2 1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Limited Range (-1/4), Limited Power: Does not work in Vacuum (-1/4)

 

​This character needs 11- to hit a DCV 3 hex and has a 62.5% chance of doing so on 3d6.  But wait, adjacent hexes (and the hex in which a character is standing) are DCV 0, not DCV 3.  Since our Desolid hero is immune to his own attack, he half-moves up to his previous attacker (with Desolidification on), shuts it off (zero-phase action, permissible after a half-phase non-attack action), and creates a 4m radius vacuum right where he's standing, needing 14- to hit his own hex, and having a 90.74% chance of rolling it on 3d6.  If we assume an average roll of 3 on the BODY die and 3 on the STUN die, our hero just did 36 STUN to his opponent and anyone other than himself within the 4m radius/8m diameter ... unless they have Safe Environment: Low Pressure/Vaccum AND Self-Contained Breathing. 

 

In this example, Personal Immunity is the key to the character's OCV being the equivalent of 6, instead of 3 -- and is responsible for increasing hit probability by a whopping 28.24%.  Personal Immunity also made complete sense for the character and his special effects ... and it cost 3 active and 1 real while having the effect of 15 active points of OCV!  Granted, solid tactical play was involved, but still...

 

In a nutshell:

Personal Immunity can absolutely impact a character's ability to hit... and you may wish to consider it very carefully when you see it.

 

 

What I meant by saying a Defense that takes the place of an attack is this.  If a Defense (whether Desolidification, Martial Dodge, Martial Block, Barrier or whatever) prevents the character from attacking it can pass the BP level as long as the character is impeded by it as well.  In the case of Desolidification a character can't effect the real world either so it becomes a wash.

I still don't see this one -- because I can use Desolidification as a defense in my Phase ... and still attack in that Phase (by shutting off Desolidification).  If I'm Desolid and DEX 10... and a DEX 20 guy shoots at me, it'll pass right through me ... and on my DEX I can shut down Desolidification and bust him up ... effectively allowing me to use the defense AND an attack in the same phase ... something I couldn't do if I had to abort to a Martial Dodge at DEX 20 to keep from getting hit by the DEX 20 guy.

[Deadman]

Food for thought:

​Personal Immunity can absolutely be used to amazing effect to impact how someone hits. 

 

Consider:

Our Desolid hero, from above, can control matter at the atomic level -- which allows him to interleave the particles of his being into the spaces between the particles that make up atoms (hence his Desolidification).  His ability also allows him to move matter around, at will -- and one of his tricks is to create a momentary vacuum in a given space.  He is OCV 3 with low natural/normal defenses but he's got the weird stuff going on.  His vacuum attack basically boils the blood of living beings within it for one second, doing little/no BODY but a pile of system shock (STUN).

 

The attack power would look like this:

67 Active, 33 Real

Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Personal Immunity (+1/4), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (NND w/ defense being able to exist in vacuum [i.e. Life Support: Safe Environment - Low Pressure/Vacuum and Self-Contained Breathing]; All Or Nothing; +1/2), +10 Increased STUN Multiplier (+2 1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Limited Range (-1/4), Limited Power: Does not work in Vacuum (-1/4)

 

​This character needs 11- to hit a DCV 3 hex and has a 62.5% chance of doing so on 3d6.  But wait, adjacent hexes (and the hex in which a character is standing) are DCV 0, not DCV 3.  Since our Desolid hero is immune to his own attack, he half-moves up to his previous attacker (with Desolidification on), shuts it off (zero-phase action, permissible after a half-phase non-attack action), and creates a 4m radius vacuum right where he's standing, needing 14- to hit his own hex, and having a 90.74% chance of rolling it on 3d6.  If we assume an average roll of 3 on the BODY die and 3 on the STUN die, our hero just did 36 STUN to his opponent and anyone other than himself within the 4m radius/8m diameter ... unless they have Safe Environment: Low Pressure/Vaccum AND Self-Contained Breathing. 

 

In this example, Personal Immunity is the key to the character's OCV being the equivalent of 6, instead of 3 -- and is responsible for increasing hit probability by a whopping 28.24%.  Personal Immunity also made complete sense for the character and his special effects ... and it cost 3 active and 1 real while having the effect of 15 active points of OCV!  Granted, solid tactical play was involved, but still...

 

In a nutshell:

Personal Immunity can absolutely impact a character's ability to hit... and you may wish to consider it very carefully when you see it.

 

 

I still don't see this one -- because I can use Desolidification as a defense in my Phase ... and still attack in that Phase (by shutting off Desolidification).  If I'm Desolid and DEX 10... and a DEX 20 guy shoots at me, it'll pass right through me ... and on my DEX I can shut down Desolidification and bust him up ... effectively allowing me to use the defense AND an attack in the same phase ... something I couldn't do if I had to abort to a Martial Dodge at DEX 20 to keep from getting hit by the DEX 20 guy.

 

So I would encourage your to take a look at the build of that power.  It isn't really sound.  For one thing, since it doesn't have the Does Body Advantage it would only do Stun.  Secondly, he still has to be solid to launch the attack.  So what you have here is an 82 Active Point power that Mr. 3 OCV can target next to him (since he can't afford to take any penalties).  While he stands no chance of taking damage his adversaries may be taken down quite a few Stun.  I don't feel, even with the creative construction, that it really breaks anything.  It is an 82 point attack and should bring the hurt so to speak.  To your point, yes, Personal Immunity can have an impact as you said.  But the ultimate point here is that Mr. Vacuum is now in the middle of the battle with a 3 DCV.  Kind of comes out in the wash in my opinion.  What are the target's teammates going to do?

 

I guess what you are missing is that everyone else can tell that you're Desolid.  Why would they attack you?  Why wouldn't they hold their phases until you are solid?  Since you can't turn on Desolid as an abort to escape damage then turn it off and attack it means that at some point you would have given up an attack action to become Desolid right?  You couldn't have attacked and then turned it on.  You also could not have turned it on in the beginning of your phase and turned it off later and attacked.  So it took the place of an attack at some point.

 

The fact is that the Hero System is so deep and malleable that there will always be an attack that is nearly indefensible.  Just as there will always be Defenses that are nearly impregnable.  My system addresses the norm and in my humble opinion, does it quite well for as simple as it is.

 

Thank you for your comments, 

 

~Edited to take out reference to Rare attack as a Common->Rare is a +1/2 Advantage

Edited March 5, 2016 by Deadman

[Steve]

You have briefly discussed recuperative abilities, but you might consider adding a BP factor involving STUN/END and REC. A character could buy a high REC and STUN, but what do you deem to be too high for each archetype? Without it being shown as having a BP effect, it's entirely subjective.

 

Do you allow abilities from the Advanced Players Guides?

 

Since your BP on attacks is driven by Active Points, does that mean that Personal Immunity or Reduced END is treated the same as Armor Piercing? Some Advantages don't affect damage done to a target, so maybe they could be ignored in the BP calculation?

[Deadman]

Hey Everyone,

 

If you want to see this in practice you can visit our Campaign Website at https://champions-mutant-chronicles.obsidianportal.com/

 

All of the PCs have their Balance Points listed on the character sheet.  Become a fan of the page!

 

Thanks for you input,

[bigdamnhero]

Since your BP on attacks is driven by Active Points, does that mean that Personal Immunity or Reduced END is treated the same as Armor Piercing? Some Advantages don't affect damage done to a target, so maybe they could be ignored in the BP calculation?

He answered that; see #17.

[Surrealone]

So I would encourage your to take a look at the build of that power.  It isn't really sound.  For one thing, since it doesn't have the Does Body Advantage it would only do Stun.  Secondly, he still has to be solid to launch the attack.  So what you have here is an 82 Active Point power that Mr. 3 OCV can target next to him (since he can't afford to take any penalties).  While he stands no chance of taking damage his adversaries may be taken down quite a few Stun.  I don't feel, even with the creative construction, that it really breaks anything.  It is an 82 point attack and should bring the hurt so to speak.  To your point, yes, Personal Immunity can have an impact as you said.  But the ultimate point here is that Mr. Vacuum is now in the middle of the battle with a 3 DCV.  Kind of comes out in the wash in my opinion.  What are the target's teammates going to do?

 

I guess what you are missing is that everyone else can tell that you're Desolid.  Why would they attack you?  Why wouldn't they hold their phases until you are solid?  Since you can't turn on Desolid as an abort to escape damage then turn it off and attack it means that at some point you would have given up an attack action to become Desolid right?  You couldn't have attacked and then turned it on.  You also could not have turned it on in the beginning of your phase and turned it off later and attacked.  So it took the place of an attack at some point.

 

1. 67 Active point power (not sure where you came up with 82).
2. Yes, it's STUN only because it's a NND -- intentionally so since it fits the special effects.
3. Not sure why you called it unsound, as a character going last can pop solid, take the shot, then abort back to desolid on the next segment, if needed.  Tactically, it's very sound, as the period of 3 DCV while solid ... is minimal.

 

I understand your commentary about desolidification being visible -- but in combat, with range penalties to PER rolls as well as penelaties due to various combat conditions (smoke, debris, effects of characters using change envifonment, partial cover, etc.) ... I don't think desolidification would be as immediately apparent (at least for the first shot) for all opponents as you seem to indicate.  Then again, perhaps you and/or your players don't model your combats to account for and/or take/make full advantage of environmental conditions...

 

If you want to handwave desolidification being the same as Martial Dodge, that's your call.  However, since performing one of these (activating Desolidification) is a Zero phase non-attack action and performing the other (Martial Dodge) is a half-phase action that counts as an attack action ... I don't agree with that handwave -- specifically because you can use Desolidification as a defense in your own phase ... and still attack in the same phase -- and I just showed you an example of how.  (Aborting is a different matter, entirely; they're actually comparable, but so is any defense when aborting to use/raise it.)

 

Frankly, I see it as a hole in which Desolidification is ripe for abuse -- since your weighting system doesn't properly account for it (IMHO).

[Steve]

He answered that; see #17.

 

Ah, you're correct. I missed that part.

 

Going on to other powers: Darkness and Invisibility affect an opponent's ability to see and their CV. Could that have a BP effect?

 

How about Drains on OCV or DCV?