Using Skills In Combat

[g3taso]

I've been looking through some of the Ultimate books, and I had a question about why skills aren't being used in combat to any extent. 

 

I'm thinking of using an Acrobatics roll (-1 per 5pts of the power) to avoid an attack, using Acrobatics as a complementary skill to DCV. If this is possible it would work great with the character concept and seems like a very reasonable use of skills. Does this seem far out? How might this we written up as a power/talent/skill?

[ghost-angel]

Skills are used in Combat, or you can use them in Combat all the time.

 

Though using Acrobatics to avoid an Attack bypasses the whole idea of DCV (it'd be much cheaper to buy Acrobatics to a very high roll than buying a high DCV).

 

Breakfall has some very specific roles to play in combat, with regards to Knockback/Knockdown.

 

You can use Skills as complimentary to getting Surprise while already in a fight. If the GM allows Analyze might apply in some situations (Analyze: Fighting Style for instance to gain a CSL for the fight, as a possibility). Fantasy Hero has outlined a Feint Skill for using in sword fighting if there's a focus on that in the campaign.

 

There's lots of imaginative ways a GM and Players can come up with to incorporate skills into combat if they wanted.

[g3taso]

I agree, with Breakfall and bonuses to surprise being good examples. I have played D&D / Pathfinder games since the 80s, so there is also the inherent assumption that a high DEX equates to an actual combat advantage 

 

Let me change focus slightly, and ask a more specific question.

 

1. I am aware that there is no "damage avoidance due to high agility" in 5e directly, but of course one might put Damage Reduction or PD as being that in the SFX. How might you use a good dex (and other agility skills) to reflect taking less damage in combat due to speed, maneuverability and technique?

[ghost-angel]

You could always do something like "Acrobatic: +3 DCV, Requires An Acrobatics Roll" - make your roll you get more DCV.
 

But generally, what you're talking about is the difference between Special Effect & Mechanics. Since other systems don't have the separation, they inherent mix the two ideas into one pot.

 

In Hero - you have to simulate what Effect you're going for, matched with the Special Effect of what you're describing.

 

Since Acrobatics the Skill only has the Mechanic of performing Acrobatic Tricks (that is all it does Mechanically); It has no other direct applications. In Hero whatever you want to happen Mechanically you have to purchase.

 

No, that isn't to say that they can't help with properly done Role Playing, use of Skills, and Situational Modifiers by creative GMs & Players;

 

For example;

In a fight where you have cover, an enterprising group might say at 1/2 Cover or more you can try and duck quickly, perhaps an Acrobatics Roll to gain 3/4 Cover instead...

[g3taso]

That's a really good way to look at it. I've been thinking of Acrobatics as something I should be "getting more from", because of other games I've played. I'd rather make Stealth rolls than Acrobatics rolls, anyway!

[Anaximander]

I use the "Requires a Roll" a lot for powers and bonuses a lot, especially when trying to model advantages that I don't want to be super powers or to model unusual advantages from real life.  As an example, in real life, I lot martial arts and athletes take ballet dancing to enhance their performance.  In order to create a character that uses dancing in order to enhance her martial arts, I bought some CSL with Requires PS: Dancing Roll.  In order to create a conspiracy theorist who could connect the dots based on spurious clues, I designed a Clairvoyance that required a Deduction roll when 3 or more valid clues were present.

[bluesguy]

The GMs running in our group have decided for our Fantasy games to use Analyze Combat like this:

 

You need to fight the opponent for at least 2 actions before you can analyze combat on them
You can only make one analyze attempt on an opponent

• If you are fighting multiple people/creatures who are using the same "style", you can make a roll on additional targets on your first phase fighting them.
• If you make your roll by -2, you get a +1 bonus, which you can apply to OCV or DCV vs that opponent
• If you make your roll by -4, you get a +2 bonus, which you can apply to OCV or DCV vs that opponent

This scene between Inigo Montoya vs. Westley has lots of references to Analyze Combat and a bit of acrobatics.

 

With Acrobatics we often let players use that skill in combat as a way to 'bounce' around the battlefield.  Do high flying leaps over an opponent and 'attack' from behind or just run over and attack a different opponent.  The GM may or may not roll to see if the opponent is surprised and again give the player a slight advantage for surprise.

 

IMO the Ladyhawke scene with Mouse at the Inn is a combination of Acrobatics, high DCV, DEX, and a escape like crazy.  Most of the fights in Star Wars I thru III were all about acrobatics and "super" leaping.

[pinecone]

I've been looking through some of the Ultimate books, and I had a question about why skills aren't being used in combat to any extent. 

 

I'm thinking of using an Acrobatics roll (-1 per 5pts of the power) to avoid an attack, using Acrobatics as a complementary skill to DCV. If this is possible it would work great with the character concept and seems like a very reasonable use of skills. Does this seem far out? How might this we written up as a power/talent/skill?

You mean like +2 DCV, RSR: Acrobatics?   That is a doable thing...old school Acrobatics cost a fair bit more, and had that baked in. Now a days everything is split out, but you can put things back in.

 

The most common skill use I've been seeing is Analyze...(Combat use that is...)

 

If what you're looking for is "I jump out of the way" the take a look at "Dive for cover" that might be what you have in mind...

[ghost-angel]

All this said; it's entirely possible to create a Game which is mostly, or all, Skill Based instead of Power based.

 

You just have to be careful how much benefit comes from a Skill versus other, more traditional, sources. Or at least, how often the benefit comes into play, and you'll probably be rolling dice a lot more often for what be otherwise simpler tasks.

 

If you do try this, have the group sit down and outline exactly what kinds of benefits various Skills and levels of success get you...

 

Fighting in the rigging of a ship? Climbing can be used to reduce/remove penalties, enhance movement, used to gain surprise, or mitigate it...

 

As an example of ways you can get creative with Skills & Combat, with or without the use of Power Based Talents...

[g3taso]

I use the "Requires a Roll" a lot for powers and bonuses a lot, especially when trying to model advantages that I don't want to be super powers or to model unusual advantages from real life.  As an example, in real life, I lot martial arts and athletes take ballet dancing to enhance their performance.  In order to create a character that uses dancing in order to enhance her martial arts, I bought some CSL with Requires PS: Dancing Roll.  In order to create a conspiracy theorist who could connect the dots based on spurious clues, I designed a Clairvoyance that required a Deduction roll when 3 or more valid clues were present.

I really thought hard about dancing instead of acrobatics, thinking back to capoeira and other martial arts incorporating dance movements

[g3taso]

You mean like +2 DCV, RSR: Acrobatics?   That is a doable thing...old school Acrobatics cost a fair bit more, and had that baked in. No a days everything is split out, but you can put things back in.

 

The most common skill use I've been seeing is Analyze...(Combat use that is...)

 

If what you're looking for is "I jump out of the way" the take a look at "Dive for cover" that might be what you have in mind...

I'm really liking Diving for Cover, or perhaps the big brother Flying Dodge. They drift from real-world to wuxia a bit but reflect the dark-championsism notion of action hero powers, not superpowers. The Transporter compared to Superman.

[pinecone]

I'm really liking Diving for Cover, or perhaps the big brother Flying Dodge. They drift from real-world to wuxia a bit but reflect the dark-championsism notion of action hero powers, not superpowers. The Transporter compared to Superman.

Cool, though Dive for cover can get real bothersome if the roll is too good...

[Tasha]

I'm really liking Diving for Cover, or perhaps the big brother Flying Dodge. They drift from real-world to wuxia a bit but reflect the dark-championsism notion of action hero powers, not superpowers. The Transporter compared to Superman.

 

Dive for Cover is for not getting toasted by Area of Effect attacks.

[g3taso]

How about a naked advantage for Roll With A Punch, Trigger Being Successfully Attacked.    I am thinking of this as something that happens automatically when the character is successfully attacked, even if he has doing something else like attacking or something that round. Would that work? What would it look like as a writeup?

 

I know it's not really part of this thread, but it just popped into my head and it seemed nifty. As far as my Transporter reference goes, this would follow his schtick of amazing maneuverabilty to avoid damage and deal damage to a lot of people in close quarters.

[Lucius]

Roll with it: (Total: 30 Active Cost, 9 Real Cost) Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points); Requires A Roll (Block roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Only Works Against Attacks the character is aware of (-1/4) (Real Cost: 9)

 

As long as the character has freedom of action and is aware of an attack it is possible to make the same sort of roll as a Block maneuver (this does not require an attack action) to cut the damage of physical attacks in half.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

It should be obvious that the palindromedary has Defense Maneuver

[Surrealone]

I've been looking through some of the Ultimate books, and I had a question about why skills aren't being used in combat to any extent. 

 

The following are classified as skills ... and are commonly used/relied upon in combat:

• Analyze
• Autofire Skills
• Breakfall
• Contortionist
• Combat Driving
• Combat Piloting
• Combat Skill Levels
• Defense Maneuver
• Fast Draw
• Language Skill (your people DO talk in combat, right?)
• Martial Arts
• Mental Combat Skill Levels
• Movement Skill Levels
• Oratory (for PRE attacks)
• Paramedics
• Penalty Skill Levels
• Persuasion (for PRE attacks)
• Rapid Attack
• Stealth
• Teamwork
• Tactics
• Two Weapon Fighting
• Weapon Familiarity

 

That's off the top of my head.  Given the above, can you shed some light on why you feel "skills aren't being used in combat to any extent"???

[bigdamnhero]

I'll often let players use Acrobatics to gain a +1 Surprise Maneuver or positional bonus of some kind; in fact RAW specifically addresses that use. I've also used it as a Required Skill Roll for Combat Luck, Damage Reduction or DCV bonuses. I've also seen players use Persuasion/PRE Atks to bluff or feint their way into a combat bonus. Heck, I've even seen PS: Dancing used in combat (two words: mosh pit).

 

So yeah, there are a lot of ways a clever player/GM can use noncombat Skills in combat. Tho keep in mind the more rolls you bake into combat, the more you slow things down.

[dmjalund]

Is Mosh Pitt Brad's Jewish half brother?

[Tasha]

I agree, with Breakfall and bonuses to surprise being good examples. I have played D&D / Pathfinder games since the 80s, so there is also the inherent assumption that a high DEX equates to an actual combat advantage 

 

Let me change focus slightly, and ask a more specific question.

 

1. I am aware that there is no "damage avoidance due to high agility" in 5e directly, but of course one might put Damage Reduction or PD as being that in the SFX. How might you use a good dex (and other agility skills) to reflect taking less damage in combat due to speed, maneuverability and technique?

 

Remember that Hero is a HUGE toolkit with a lot of good tools in it. Many of the things you talked about can be modeled in the system you just have to get beyond "system Literality" ie don't get bogged down with the names of powers and skills overmuch.

 

ie I can model Damage Avoidence in many ways.

 

1) I can buy a lot of Dex and Skill levels (in 6e I would just buy lots of DCV) this is the most obvious

 

2) I could also buy Skill levels for DCV based on a skill roll (ie your Acrobatics make me harder to hit superskill)

 

3) I could buy Damage Reduction (I move so well that blows don't damage me because I always roll with the punch, or move so a blast just grazes me)

 

4) I could buy Armor (Resistant Protection in 6e). (See above, "I move so well that blows don't damage me much, and ranged attacks tend to graze me or hit my cape).

 

You should always think about the effect you want like you were writing it down in a story. Then look at the many Powers/Skills/Characteristics/Talents that could also model that ability. Perhaps one or more will do the job.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I have a universal formula I apply to skills if it could apply in combat. If the skill roll is successful, the user gains +1 to OCV or DCV (whichever is applicable). If the skill roll is a critical success, they gain +2.

 

The skill could be acrobatics, contortionist, sleight of hand, Fast draw, etc. Depends on the context etc. Heck, I even allow the use of Interaction skills like Oratory (you can give a temporary bonus to your comrades) Interrogation (the intimidation option. cow your opponent into making a mistake) or Acting (pretend to be less competent so your opponent gets sloppy and provides an opening) to combat under the correct circumstances.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Dive for Cover is for not getting toasted by Area of Effect attacks.

I allow Acrobatics to replace the Dex roll for Dive for Cover. The character gracefully sommersaults to safety instead of leaping haphazardly behind cover.

[bigdamnhero]

I allow Acrobatics to replace the Dex roll for Dive for Cover. The character gracefully sommersaults to safety instead of leaping haphazardly behind cover.

I like the idea. What concrete advantage does that give over a standard DEX Roll, aside from if the character has bought up their Acrobatics Roll? Is the roll any easier? Do they still end up prone? Not to diminish the "looking cool" factor, but I'm curious.

[ghost-angel]

Here's how I would play it:

 

Acrobatics means you don't end up prone.

DEX Roll means you end up prone.

 

It's a small thing, but paying points for an actual Skill should get you a little something something.

[Tasha]

Here's how I would play it:

 

Acrobatics means you don't end up prone.

DEX Roll means you end up prone.

 

It's a small thing, but paying points for an actual Skill should get you a little something something.

 

IMHO it should probably be Breakfall that allow you to dive for Cover and then end up on your feet. Though by RAW 5e and later you can't use either Acrobatics or Breakfall to avoid the DCV penalty and ending up prone after the maneuver.

[ghost-angel]

I see Breakfall more when you're not in control of the fall; Knockback, Knockdown, actually falling off of something, Thrown...

 

Acrobatics is a controlled fall, more or less. Use Acrobatics instead of DEX as a Dive For Cover roll seems logical, and having the added benefit of using an actual skill should (or could) give you the added benefit of not ending up Prone: that moment when the hero dives out of the way of the explosion, and rolls up to a crouched position behind cover; for example.

 

This is as much about giving Skills some use in Combat as it is preventing everything from falling down onto one skill only; Breakfall already has a myriad of defined uses, spreading the fun around a little can give characters who focus on such things a bit of a chance to shine a little more (just about everyone buys Breakfall, not so much Acrobatics). Also, even if everyone has both on their sheets, using different Skills in different situations makes everyone feel like their whole character sheet is getting used, not just a narrow focus.