Vulnerability as Drain

[bigdamnhero]

I have a fire-based superhero NPC that I want to be Vulnerable to water, but instead of taking damage I want it to work as a Drain on her fire-based powers. APG1 has guidelines for this: at x1.5 level Vulnerability, the character suffers a Drain equal to half the AP of the attack, and at the x2 level the Drain is equal to the full AP of the attack. I don't want the character to be completely nerfed, so let's go with x1.5 Vuln at least for now. (The character's fire powers are all Unified, so they will all be affected by the Drain simultaneously - yeah, it's meant to suck.)

 

Simple enough so far. But I'm trying to decide how many dice to assign to common "water attacks" that aren't built as powers, like being doused with a pitcher of water, hit with a fire hose, or setting off the building fire sprinklers.

 

6e1 p194 has an example fire extinguisher built as a 10d6 Dispel, any 1 fire power at a time (+1/2) for 45 AP. So that would translate to a 2.5d6 Drain, which seems a tad light but okay. Villainy Amok also gives some stats for fire hoses, ranging from 7d6 Dispel for a 1.5" line (63 AP with +2 Advantage for All Fire Powers simultaneously), up to 11d6 for a 5" line (99 AP with same Advs). So that translates to a 3d6 Drain from a 1.5" line, or 5d6 Drain from a 5" line. So using those as a starting point, I extrapolated made up the following:

• glass of water:      10 AP  =>  1/2d6 Drain
• pitcher of water:    25 AP  =>  1d6+1 Drain
• fire extinguisher:   50 AP  =>  2.5d6 Drain
• garden hose:        50 AP  =>  2.5d6 Drain
• fire hose, 1.5":      60 AP  =>  3d6 Drain
• fire hose, 2.5":      75 AP  =>  3.5d6 Drain
• fire hose, 5":       100 AP  =>  5d6 Drain
• fire sprinklers:       75 AP  =>  3.5d6 Drain
• light rain:               60 AP  =>  3d6 Drain
• heavy rain:            80 AP  =>  4d6 Drain
• monsoon:            100 AP  =>  5d6 Drain

I dunno - does that feel about right? Too high, too low, too something else? Your feedback please.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

• glass of water:      10 AP  =>  1/2d6 Drain- Probably too low
• pitcher of water:    25 AP  =>  1d6+1 Drain Probably too low
• fire extinguisher:   50 AP  =>  2.5d6 Drain  Shoudln't have effect
• garden hose:        50 AP  =>  2.5d6 Drain  Probably too low
• fire hose, 1.5":      60 AP  =>  3d6 Drain     Probably too low
• fire hose, 2.5":      75 AP  =>  3.5d6 Drain Probably too low
• fire hose, 5":       100 AP  =>  5d6 Drain    Probably too low
• fire sprinklers:       75 AP  =>  3.5d6 Drain Probably too low
• light rain:               60 AP  =>  3d6 Drain THE ONLY ONE I THINK IS TOO HIGH
• heavy rain:            80 AP  =>  4d6 Drain   Probably Good
• monsoon:            100 AP  =>  5d6 Drain   Probably WAY TOO LOW

 

Your character should carry an umbrella!!!

[bigbywolfe]

I don't think a glass of water (or even a pitcher) should have any effect, it's just not that much volume and most fire characters would flash steam it before it even hit them.

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

What my personal thought is.. 

 

The water would be more harmful if concentrated. A small glass may not have a lot of water, but it is highly concentrated, where as a light rain is not very concentrated at all. The more concentrated something is, the more effect it should have. 

 

The fire extinguisher is not water at all. It is a mixture of chemicals like KNO3. It shouldn't have an additional effect.

[Doc Democracy]

Hmm.  concentrated water, huh?  :-)

 

I think the volume of water per second should be the deciding factor.  the glass of water will only have a phase effect before evaporating, the light rain will have a lesser effect but will have an ongoing effect.

 

Not concentrated, more about volume...

 

Doc

 

PS: though for those that understand water is 55.7M concentration.

[Surrealone]

I'm with Doc on this ... the greater the volume across a given duration, the larger I'd expect the effect to be.

[bigdamnhero]

Yeah there's definitely a difference between Instant (glass or pitcher) vs Constant (rain, sprinklers); the latter may have fewer dice but have a much greater effect over multiple phases (segments?).

 

The effect range I kindof had in mind was that a glass of water would be more of an annoyance; a pitcher or ice bucket would have a minor-but-noticeable effect for a Phase or two; but getting the hose is a major drain. Similarly, a light rain is a bit of a downer but she can burn through it, a heavy rain she can still operate in but at reduced power level, and if it's a monsoon outside it's time to stay home.

 

It's worth noting if you want all of them to have more of an effect on the character, its easy enough to go with the 2x Vulnerability, which doubles the Drain dice. But I think that's more of a handicap than I want it to be.

 

Fair point that fire extinguishers are not water. But if the sfx of the Vulnerability is "because water puts out fire" (as opposed to some sort of chemical allergy) then I can't see how fire extinguishers would have a lesser effect. Maybe a more precise wording would be "Vulnerable to water and fire suppressants?"

[DasBroot]

What about if someone used telekinesis to dump a ton (maybe literally) of sand on her? It's better at putting out fires than water is.

 

Or someone grappled her using a fire blanket?

[bigdamnhero]

What about if someone used telekinesis to dump a ton (maybe literally) of sand on her? It's better at putting out fires than water is.

 

Or someone grappled her using a fire blanket?

...Good question.

[Doc Democracy]

Starting to allow real world impact on superhero physics. Never ends well and you lose the little bit of flavour you are looking for amid the hugely convoluted power build...

 

You could say fire-suppressants rather than water. You could simply require oxygen, since these things cut off the supply of that. You could simply agree a limited power with the player where half the power (or more) has limited effect in the presence of fire suppressants or absence of oxygen. You could agree with the player the kind of limitation under a variety of conditions and cut out a whole load of bureaucracy during gameplay.

 

Beware of detailed science intruding into superhero goodness!!! :-)

[ghost-angel]

Taking into consideration Volume/Time... why not keep the drain moderately low for most effects, but move the recovery rate out.

 

A glass of water: 1D6 Drain: Recovers After 1 Turn

A light downpour: 1D6 Drain: Recovers After 1 Hour

A garden hose after 1 Phase: 1D6 Drain: Recovers After 1 Minute, and 1D6 / Phase their hit with the garden hose.

 

Or something like that. Forced drying off, can naturally, mitigate the Complication, but without that, it's a matter of air drying and powers recovering.

 

There's also the saturation point; once the character is good and soaked, is that the nadir of the power loss? Total, or Most of their Powers reduced and more water can't reduce it further...

[eepjr24]

I would say if you are going for a per phase effect, glass of water and pitcher of water are more of a "Let's piss off the Fire Mutant" kind of effect than any real drain. Just not enough volume as other mentioned. 

 

Garden hose (largest available at good house PSI, less than 25 feet from spigot): 72 GPM

1.5": ~150 GPM

2": ~260 GPM

 

You see a rough doubling there, which in my mind should be equivalent of another 5 AP or 1/2 D6 drain. So your guesses are as close as mine would have been I think.

 

You can find similar numbers on the web for various amounts of rainfall if you like.

 

- E

[Surrealone]

I dunno, I think it depends.  A glass of water with a called shot to the head ... could and probably should do really interesting things to the Fire Mutant. 

[eepjr24]

<shrug> There are exceptions to everything. I would give bonus points to things bought as "fills lungs with water" or if you managed to stick a garden hose in his mouth, but that doesn't affect how I would scale the dice generally.

 

- E

[Tom Cowan]

this sounds more like Susceptibility then Vulnerability to me

[bigdamnhero]

Starting to allow real world impact on superhero physics. Never ends well and you lose the little bit of flavour you are looking for amid the hugely convoluted power build...

I actually disagree with this. To paraphrase Harry Dresden, the fire may be magically summoned, but once it's here it's still fire, it still needs oxygen, it still behaves like fire, etc. So I don't think there's anything wrong with treating it like fire. I know a lot of people are totally allergic to that approach, and that's fine, but I've never had a problem with it.

 

That said, I completely agree about not wanting anything elaborate and detailed; I'm just looking for some general guidelines that feel about right, both in terms of playability and realism. Fortunately this is for an NPC, so I don't have to worry about arguing with the player about what's fair.

 

Taking into consideration Volume/Time... why not keep the drain moderately low for most effects, but move the recovery rate out.

Or you go the opposite route and make it more of a Suppress than a Drain, where the effect ends as soon as the hose turns off. Depends on how you envision the sfx, as always.

 

this sounds more like Susceptibility then Vulnerability to me

Yeah, that was actually my first thought too. I only switched to Vulnerability because APG1 had some notes on using Vulnerability that way, and I do like the idea of determining the #d6 Drain based on the quantity of water being used - it's just a question of assigning AP values to various quantities. I think accounting for quantity would be harder to do with a Susceptibility. But really it's kindof a tomayto-tomahto thing.

[Doc Democracy]

I actually disagree with this. To paraphrase Harry Dresden, the fire may be magically summoned, but once it's here it's still fire, it still needs oxygen, it still behaves like fire, etc. So I don't think there's anything wrong with treating it like fire. I know a lot of people are totally allergic to that approach, and that's fine, but I've never had a problem with it.

 

I think I am somewhere in the middle.  If you have a fire generated by a player's power, then treat the fire like fire.  Use normal real world physics to deal with normal real world phenomena.  If you the fire is the player's power (or possibly even is the player) then it is already not acting like a real world phenomena (control, fuel and oxygen requirements etc) and should probably not be subject to real world physics.

 

Real world understanding should show some effect - messing around the edges stuff that is mentioned in varying game effects due to specifics of power special effects.  I would have no problem with a fire based damage shield doing less damage if the player puts on some asbestos gloves (added ED for example) but it would not be hugely significant.  What you are doing is going beyond that and giving the power some real limits and I think there is kudos there as it allows the players to proactively effect what is going on in the game by having good ideas.

 

 

That said, I completely agree about not wanting anything elaborate and detailed; I'm just looking for some general guidelines that feel about right, both in terms of playability and realism. Fortunately this is for an NPC, so I don't have to worry about arguing with the player about what's fair.

Absolutely!! Just make sure you don't have a drop down, drag out argument with yourself during the game...I find that really makes the players feel uncomfortable...

 

 

Doc