Encumbrance AND mobility penalties on armor

[NuSoardGraphite]

I was thinking about playing with the idea of adding mobility penalties to armor in addition to the current encumbrance penalties.

 

Why?

 

Because the 5th edition encumbrance charts dont provide enough of a penalty to very strong characters who wear heavy armor such as plate mail. At a STR 20, 40kg plate mail barely reaches the 10% threshold of encumbrance for such a character.

 

I was thinking about adding a DCV/DEX penalty based on the type of armor worn. This penalty represents the general level of heat, discomfort and limitations to limb movement the armor inflicts upon the wearer. I know even plate armor can allow almost any normal human movement such as handstands, cartwheels and backflips, however the purpose of this thought experiment is not to make such maneuvers impossible, only more difficult under the given circumstances.

 

So I was thinking that armor should be broken down into three categories for sake of ease. Light, Medium and Heavy categories.

 

Light armor is obviously Leather and other light armors. Generally speaking they will have a defense between 1 and 3.

 

Medium armors are those armors such as scale and chain. They generally have a defense between 4 and 6.

 

Heavy armors are those which have great weight and somewhat restrict movement such as plate mail. These generally have a defense of 7 or more.

 

I will likely begin some research and come up with something more detailed sometime down the road, but these are the basics I am going for.

 

Quite obviously, Light Armor is a -1, medium a -2 and heavy a -3. This is in addition to the total encumbrance of the character. So the strong warrior with a STR 20 wearing full plate armor will be at -4 to DCV and DEX rolls. A guy who is STR 10 will be at -5.

 

However I also plan to allow "Movement in Armor" skill levels which can reduce the mobility penalties of wearing armor. (But only that, not the Encumbrance penalties) which has to be purchased by category.

 

All of that will be detailed in a later post.

[Richgee]

When you look at it remember there is a load of permutations when it comes to armour, so a solid breast plate(front only) with chain mid thigh coat and leather trousers is not uncommon.

 

Ignore the full sets they will write them selves and look at the historic combinations worn by mobile troops. They tend to balance comfort, protection and mobility. Heavier armour on the arms and legs poses a greater mobility penalty than when strapped to the torso or head.

[NuSoardGraphite]

When you look at it remember there is a load of permutations when it comes to armour, so a solid breast plate(front only) with chain mid thigh coat and leather trousers is not uncommon.

 

Ignore the full sets they will write them selves and look at the historic combinations worn by mobile troops. They tend to balance comfort, protection and mobility. Heavier armour on the arms and legs poses a greater mobility penalty than when strapped to the torso or head.

That was some of the greater detail I was planning on going into on my next day off perhaps.

[Steve]

You could do something very simplistic by assigning a modifier of -1 for every 2 points of rDEF worn starting at rDEF 3 and above.

 

0-2 No Mod

3-4 -1

5-6 -2

7-8 -3

And so on.

[NuSoardGraphite]

You could do something very simplistic by assigning a modifier of -1 for every 2 points of rDEF worn starting at rDEF 3 and above.

 

0-2 No Mod

3-4 -1

5-6 -2

7-8 -3

And so on.

Not bad. I like the breakdown.

[Richgee]

For calculating mixed armour Dex penalty you could use the following.

 

Left leg (mod x 1.5)/9

Right leg (mod x 1.5)/9

Torso (mod x 3)/9

Left arm (mod x 1)/9

Right arm (mod x 1)/9

Head (mod x 1)/9

 

Use the mod for the heaviest piece of armour covering an area. So plate over chain gives a mod of -3.

 

Then just add the fractions and round off for total penalty.

 

Thoughts?

[Lucius]

 

I'm thinking of an armor penalty rule independent of encumbrance, from a desire to have some balancing factor for heavy armor and a disinclination to track the details of encumbrance.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Encumbering a palindromedary

[Netzilla]

I had a house rule for armor penalties based on their categories in Fantasy Hero:

Problem:
The only penalty that exists for wearing heavy or restrictive armor is the use of the Encumbrance rules, which are a
generic weight to STR comparison.  All carried weights are treated the same, be it an arm-load of firewood or a full
suit of plate mail.  There is also no provision made for characters that have been trained in the proper ways to move
and fight in heavy armor.

Solution:
Heavier armors will impart various penalties to a character’s performance if they are not used to moving in such armor.  
The table below breaks all armors into specific types (the same types found on the Armor table on page 217 of Fantasy
Hero).  The penalties listed are DCV, DEX Rolls (including DEX-based skills) and increases to the character’s
Temperature Level (HSR 441-442) (to reflect how hot & stifling armor gets).
 

Armor Type             DCV   DEX Roll   Temperature Level
----------             ---   --------   -----------------
Cloth/Hide/Leather      -0      -0             +0
Reinforced Leather      -1      -1             +1
Scale                   -2      -2             +1
Chain                   -3      -3             +2
Plate                   -4      -4             +2

In addition to the above penalties, wearing a helmet can invoke additional penalties.  If a helmet covers Hit Location
3 (the face) the wearer suffers a -2 Sight Perception penalty.  If a helmet covers Hit Location 5 (the skull), the
wearer suffers a -2 Hearing Perception penalty.

All of the above penalties are in addition to the penalties incurred from a high Encumbrance.

Armor Familiarity
It is possible to off-set some of the above penalties by purchasing levels of Armor Familiarity.  Each level of Armor
Familiarity cancels 1 point of DCV and DEX penalty.  It does nothing to counter Temperature Level penalties nor will it
counter the Perception penalties incurred by helmets.  Each level costs 3 Character Points and no character may purchase
more than 3 total levels.

Armor Familiarity levels are purchased as:
+1 Penalty DCV Level vs. Armor Penalties [1.5 pts] plus +1 Penalty Skill Level vs. Armor Penalties [1.5 pts].  Total Cost = 3.

 

[dmjalund]

Add extra end cost to running

[NuSoardGraphite]

I had a house rule for armor penalties based on their categories in Fantasy Hero:

 

Problem:

The only penalty that exists for wearing heavy or restrictive armor is the use of the Encumbrance rules, which are a

generic weight to STR comparison. All carried weights are treated the same, be it an arm-load of firewood or a full

suit of plate mail. There is also no provision made for characters that have been trained in the proper ways to move

and fight in heavy armor.

 

Solution:

Heavier armors will impart various penalties to a character’s performance if they are not used to moving in such armor.

The table below breaks all armors into specific types (the same types found on the Armor table on page 217 of Fantasy

Hero). The penalties listed are DCV, DEX Rolls (including DEX-based skills) and increases to the character’s

Temperature Level (HSR 441-442) (to reflect how hot & stifling armor gets).

 

Armor Type			 DCV   DEX Roll   Temperature Level
----------			 ---   --------   -----------------
Cloth/Hide/Leather	  -0	  -0			 +0
Reinforced Leather	  -1	  -1			 +1
Scale				   -2	  -2			 +1
Chain				   -3	  -3			 +2
Plate				   -4	  -4			 +2

In addition to the above penalties, wearing a helmet can invoke additional penalties. If a helmet covers Hit Location

3 (the face) the wearer suffers a -2 Sight Perception penalty. If a helmet covers Hit Location 5 (the skull), the

wearer suffers a -2 Hearing Perception penalty.

 

All of the above penalties are in addition to the penalties incurred from a high Encumbrance.

 

Armor Familiarity

It is possible to off-set some of the above penalties by purchasing levels of Armor Familiarity. Each level of Armor

Familiarity cancels 1 point of DCV and DEX penalty. It does nothing to counter Temperature Level penalties nor will it

counter the Perception penalties incurred by helmets. Each level costs 3 Character Points and no character may purchase

more than 3 total levels.

 

Armor Familiarity levels are purchased as:

+1 Penalty DCV Level vs. Armor Penalties [1.5 pts] plus +1 Penalty Skill Level vs. Armor Penalties [1.5 pts]. Total Cost = 3.

Excellent post. Similar to the amount of detail I want to cover.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I like the concept of Armor Familiarity. However, I would treat it like Weapon Familiarity. There is an additional penalty to wearing armor that goes away when the familiarity is purchased. Probably a penalty of -2 in addition to the Armor's inherent mobility penalty. Thus someone unfamiliar, wearing Chainmail which has an inherent penalty of -2 would be at -4.

 

I'm thinking Maneuvering in Armor levels must be purchased seperately for each class of armor (Light, Medium and Heavy) but can also be purchased for specific armor (such as Studded Leather or a Chain Hauberk).

 

Each level for a category is 3pts. For a specific armor set within a category is 2pts.

 

It is essentially 5pt DCV levels bought OIF (-1/2), only to remove DCV penalties from armor type (-1/2). For 2pt levels add Only when wearing [specific armor] (-1/2)

[bigdamnhero]

I like the concept of Armor Familiarity. However, I would treat it like Weapon Familiarity. There is an additional penalty to wearing armor that goes away when the familiarity is purchased. Probably a penalty of -2 in addition to the Armor's inherent mobility penalty. Thus someone unfamiliar, wearing Chainmail which has an inherent penalty of -2 would be at -4.

Hmm...It seems like the minute you introduce Armor Familiarity, any PCs that plan on wearing armor will immediately buy the appropriate Familiarity. NPCs might or might not, but their DCVs are whatever the GM thinks they should be regardless. So I'm not sure what you've accomplished for the additional work, aside from creating something else to spend points on?

[Manic Typist]

Um, if they spend points on Armor Familiarity (especially if they have to buy multiple kinds to cover different kinds of armor), then they have less points on other things, and this helps distinguish dedicated fighters from other concepts? 

 

That's what it's accomplished. Plus if you get really granular you can slow PC force escalation when they can't just find a new shiny suit of +X magic armor in a dungeon and slip it on right away, good to go!

[Netzilla]

Hmm...It seems like the minute you introduce Armor Familiarity, any PCs that plan on wearing armor will immediately buy the appropriate Familiarity. NPCs might or might not, but their DCVs are whatever the GM thinks they should be regardless. So I'm not sure what you've accomplished for the additional work, aside from creating something else to spend points on?

 

You could make the same argument in regards to Weapon Familiarity.  Whether or not purchasing Armor Familiarity is a meaningful choice depends on 1) character concept and 2) total character points available.  Also, at 3 points per level, a single level of AF is equivalent to the cheaper Martial Arts maneuvers or a new skill.  So, in a lower-points game, that can be a meaningful choice.  In a high points game, 3-9 points won't mean much, so AF may not be an appropriate house rule there.  Kind of like how Weapon Familiarity isn't really that meaningful in a superheroic game.

[Christopher R Taylor]

It depends what you're trying to achieve.  Realistically, even a modestly healthy person can move pretty normally even in full plate.  I even watched a demonstration of a man leaping over a fence and vaulting onto a horse's back wearing full period plate (and he was not some super athlete).

 

But if you want to create some sort of balance by penalizing heavy armor to offset its defense, then the present system doesn't do much of that.  Personally, I think DCV, perception, and END penalties are more plausible than movement penalties.

[bigdamnhero]

WFs aren't meaningful in a superhero game because you pay points for equipment. Giving heroic characters equipment for free, but then making them pay points in order to use that gear seems to defeat the concept. We do that with weapons because there are so many different types of Weapon Familiarities; you buy the ones you want, paying extra points for added versatility. Armor Familiarity as described here doesn't have versatility, just depth, more like a single PSL that can be bought at multiple levels.

 

Plus if you get really granular you can slow PC force escalation when they can't just find a new shiny suit of +X magic armor in a dungeon and slip it on right away, good to go!

OK, so I've only bought "medium" Armor Familiarity, and I find a suit of plate mail. (Magical or not shouldn't make a difference.) Guess what will be the first thing I buy at the next XP dump? So all you've done is inconvenience the character for a session or two and forced them to spend a few more points to use a piece of equipment you gave them? I'd prefer to control force escalation by not giving them the damn suit of magic armor in the first place.  

 

 

In theory I don't hate the idea of having some kind of armor penalty that's not tied to STR. But if you allow characters to buy it off, 99% of them are almost certainly going to. Especially if you label it a Familiarity, which everywhere else in the rules means "You must buy this if you want to use that." So basically you've figured out a way to make them pay points for wearing armor. [shrug] I just don't see the point personally. Wearing armor is kindof a baseline in fantasy games, and based on my limited time in the SCA, it's really not all that complicated.

[Netzilla]

I was using "superheroic" primarily in reference to the point totals involved and not the idea of buying everything with points.

 

Yes, if someone wants to wear a suit of plate armor they will buy that level of AF.  If someone wants to use swords, spears and axes, they'll buy WF: Common Melee Weapons.  Hero is an open-build system so there's nothing more that prevents everyone having the same WFs than there is them having the same AFs.  I don't see this as a counter-argument to AF.

 

Also, GMs still have the option of not putting that suit of magical plate in the game.  AF has no bearing on what prizes you award in the game other than a GM seeing 3 levels of AF on the character sheet will have a pretty good indicator that the player in question would eventually like have their character wear heavy armor.

 

Sure, you can vault onto a horse or even turn a full cartwheel in plate armor.  However, there is a (small) adjustment period in getting used to the change in balance.  However I'm generally not to worried about "realism" in gaming.  I'm much more concerned with genre emulation.  The fantasy genre has a very common convention of heavily armored warriors being slower and less agile than those in lighter armor.

[Manic Typist]

 

 

 

OK, so I've only bought "medium" Armor Familiarity, and I find a suit of plate mail. (Magical or not shouldn't make a difference.)

 

 

Guess what will be the first thing I buy at the next XP dump? So all you've done is inconvenience the character for a session or two and forced them to spend a few more points to use a piece of equipment you gave them? I'd prefer to control force escalation by not giving them the damn suit of magic armor in the first place.

 

 

Says you. Mk II Elven Arcana Armor can be a tricky system- if you don't know the right phrases and ways to activate its features, you'd be better off not wearing it at all. (A way to make magic armor more interesting than just +X defense)

 

Guess you'll be feeling sheepish when I point out that you don't know anyone who's qualified to train you to use the armor, since the Elves fled the land 300 years ago. Of course, you could always make it a point to track down the lost knowledge, and that sounds like an adventure hook. We don't level up in this here campaign.

 

Me, I control force escalation by not engaging in force escalation at all. I do however encourage character differentiation/specialization, and creating different decision points for how to spend your points.

 

By your reasoning, fireballs are standard in fantasy fare. Why make anyone pay for it? Because HERO uses these methods to provide a rough method of comparing characters, and you can turn up (or down) the granularity. If you don't want Armor Familiarity (or Weapon!) that's fine. Follow your bliss. But if someone is running a campaign where there is added value from certain elements added in, don't try to rain on their parade. Maybe it makes sense that the Roman centurion transported to feudal Japan has to take time and effort (and points!) to figure out how to properly wear Japanese samurai armor to achieve maximum efficacy and comfort, and that can add to the group story being told.

[Christopher R Taylor]

OK, so I've only bought "medium" Armor Familiarity, and I find a suit of plate mail. (Magical or not shouldn't make a difference.) Guess what will be the first thing I buy at the next XP dump? So all you've done is inconvenience the character for a session or two and forced them to spend a few more points to use a piece of equipment you gave them? I'd prefer to control force escalation by not giving them the damn suit of magic armor in the first place.

 

 

That's no more true than with weapon familiarities.

[Steve]

I think you could just limit the number of such levels that can be bought, maybe a maximum of one or perhaps two. Heavy armors would still penalize, and training only partly mitigates that. Magic armor might have built-in levels, so a suit of magic platemail would not be cumbersome.

 

Perhaps instead of levels, a form of limited STR to offset the penalties, like some of the talents available that go towards weapon STR minimums?

[Richgee]

I think armour penalties for real world armour has the ability to bring some balance to some areas that cause issues in a fantasy game. We accept the encumbarance penalty from armour, the dex penalty would seem reasonable with the option of buying off the penalties with skill or familiarity, so what about magic skill penalties.

 

Using the same thought process you can argue that spells that need intricate movements to cast would also be affected by wearing armour. The need to buy skill in armour would discourage your party wizard from slapping on that magical plate armour to boost his RPD if they were due a hefty magic skill roll penalty for wearing it. Role master and other systems have an armour penalty for magic based on the type of magic you use that helps to balance magic use. I think changes to armour penalties in hero could simulate this without unbalancing anything.

 

So I've been inspired to look at it for my next campaign. I'll post my attempt when I'm finished.

[Christopher R Taylor]

In my magic system, all DCV/Dex roll penalties apply to magic rolls wearing armor.  Plus, typically a spellcaster does not spend points on strength because they need it for other things so the weight is significant to them, using up endurance and such.

[bigdamnhero]

By your reasoning, fireballs are standard in fantasy fare. Why make anyone pay for it?

Um...is that a trick question? How about: because only a tiny fraction of the populace knows how to throw fireballs? Because it takes extensive time, study and effort to learn how to do so? Because they're not equipment that anyone can buy at Ye Local Armour Shacke?

 

If you don't want Armor Familiarity (or Weapon!) that's fine. Follow your bliss. But if someone is running a campaign where there is added value from certain elements added in, don't try to rain on their parade.

[sigh] Please point to any post where I told someone else how to run their game or implied that they were badnaughtystupid? All I said is that I don't see the point of it personally. That's called providing feedback, which I thought was the whole point?

 

But your "Elven Arcana armor" and "Roman vs Samurai armor" examples neatly illustrates why I think the comparison to Weapon Familiarities doesn't track. If your campaign does in fact have a wide variety of completely different types of armor (Rifts maybe?), then yeah it might make sense to require different Familiarities to use them. With WFs, there are dozens of different types of weapons and most characters are only proficient with a handful of them, so it makes sense to say "I know these, but not those" and pay points accordingly. But what has been proposed here for AF is a single Familiarity that applies to any suit of armor (ie even if you only buy it at -1, that -1 applies even if you're wearing heavy plate). Which means anyone who wants to wear armor effectively has to buy the same AF. Which to me means, why bother?

 

I would also say that charging 3 points per level of AF seems way out of balance to me compared to 1 point for a full WF. Particularly since in my (admittedly limited and anecdotal) experience, learning to wear armor takes a small fraction of the time needed to, say, learn to shoot a bow effectively.

 

All IMO, YMMV, VCD, etc, since apparently we have to state that explicitly in every post now.

[bigdamnhero]

Using the same thought process you can argue that spells that need intricate movements to cast would also be affected by wearing armour.

Well, except most "gestures" in most magic systems are typically portrayed as hand gestures. If we're talking about some kind of shaman dance or something more elaborate, then I could see that. But I'm not sure how wearing a chainmail shirt makes it harder to wiggle your fingers.

 

I think armour penalties for real world armour has the ability to bring some balance to some areas that cause issues in a fantasy game.

Hmm...Maybe this is where I differ from the rest of you, because I've never seen armor as causing any particular balance issues? So from my perspective AF seems like a solution in search of a problem.

[Steve]

An earlier post mentioned a heat increase as a penalty for wearing armor, which would explain why full plate is not a good idea in the Sahara. Perhaps use a form of Life Support to reduce the heating effect on a character? I could see each point spent offsetting one level of temperature increase, but perhaps only 1-2 points could be spent this way.