Your Character's Costume?

[Sketchpad]

29 minutes ago, DShomshak said:

Indeed. A costume is a Focus, even if it's only Power is the 0-point one that you avoid indecent exposure, and whether Foci are breakable or unbreakable does not affect the point cost.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

But if that costume has rPD or rED, is immune to someone's powers, and can alter it's coloring or shape? 

[DShomshak]

46 minutes ago, DShomshak said:

Indeed. A costume is a Focus, even if its only Power is the 0-point one that you avoid indecent exposure, and whether Foci are breakable or unbreakable does not affect the point cost.

 

Dean Shomshak

Re-read post. Emphasis added. If a costume has confers Resistant Defense and can change color or shape, those are additional Powers that can be written up normally.

 

(Though I agree to the extent that I don't recall many, if any, costumes being literally indestructible. Just, hm, "minimally destructible.". Rips or bullet holes when dramatic, but not shredded when someone super-sneezes.

 

Dean Shomshak

Edited January 8 by DShomshak

[Sketchpad]

4 minutes ago, DShomshak said:

*Sigh* Re-read post. Emphasis added. If a costume has Resistant Defense and can change color/whatever, those are additional Powers that can be written up normally.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

I understood what you had said, Dean. So if a costume is immune to the wearer's powers, is that Handwavium or something else? Folks mistake Unstable Molecules as being armor when it's normally not. The reason why I quoted my original question is that I was wondering if anyone built them. Instead, I got arguments on how superhero costumes are immune to all damage... which they aren't necessarily... and then insulted. It's unnecessary for a simple and honest question. Hence the heated response. 

[DShomshak]

I'm sorry if I became snarky; I was rewriting my post while you responded.

 

In most cases, yeah, being immune to a character's own Powers is just handwavium. The comics often seem to be fine with that; I am fine with that; many other people seem to be fine with that. One can say "Unstable Molecules," or "Magic," or just dramatic license.

 

May I suggest your question about unstable molecules was perhaps unclear. Would a more precise question be, "How (if at all) do you write up a costume being immune to a character's own Powers? Assuming circumstances in which this goes beyond the mere fact that the costume isn't instantly destroyed by Powers that, in the real world, would destroy ordinary cloth." If I work at it, I'm sure I can think of situations where, say, the Human Torch's non-burning costume could be used for purposes other than not leaving Johnny Storm buck-naked when he turns off his flame aura. Under those circumstances, a GM might want to specify what can and can't be done with a costume when the character isn't wearing it -- even if one isn't charging Character Points for it. (Or it's a campaign where characters are not limited to arbitrary point totals.)

 

Am I getting closer?

 

Dean Shomshak

 

 

[Sketchpad]

7 minutes ago, DShomshak said:

I'm sorry if I became snarky; I was rewriting my post while you responded.

 

In most cases, yeah, being immune to a character's own Powers is just handwavium. The comics often seem to be fine with that; I am fine with that; many other people seem to be fine with that. One can say "Unstable Molecules," or "Magic," or just dramatic license.

 

May I suggest your question about unstable molecules was perhaps unclear. Would a more precise question be, "How (if at all) do you write up a costume being immune to a character's own Powers? Assuming circumstances in which this goes beyond the mere fact that the costume isn't instantly destroyed by Powers that, in the real world, would destroy ordinary cloth." If I work at it, I'm sure I can think of situations where, say, the Human Torch's non-burning costume could be used for purposes other than not leaving Johnny Storm buck-naked when he turns off his flame aura. Under those circumstances, a GM might want to specify what can and can't be done with a costume when the character isn't wearing it -- even if one isn't charging Character Points for it. (Or it's a campaign where characters are not limited to arbitrary point totals.)

 

Am I getting closer?

 

Dean Shomshak

 

Thank you, Dean. That seems to be the consensus of everyone, so I went ahead and made it just that. I had a thought that Personal Immunity might have played a role, but it didn't seem  to be something needed. Yeah, I would imagine using a costume in a creative way basically a stunt of the costume.

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

 

Wow. Ask a simple build question, and get this? Thanks, folks. Man, since everyone knows what kind of campaign I'm running, I look forward to future comments before I even begin talking about them. I didn't realize using the system in different ways would invoke the Fun Police. 

 

 

Yeah, Dude; if you took that as anything personal- as anything other than "why I have never statted-up unbreakable costumes, I encourage you to read it again, because that is all there is in there:

 

"Why I don't bother doing that."

 

My apologies if it hit you wrong.

 

 

[Sketchpad]

On 1/8/2024 at 11:20 AM, Duke Bushido said:

Charging for an indestructible costume that has _zero value_ beyond not being naked is a jackass move.

 

 

On 1/8/2024 at 3:29 PM, Duke Bushido said:

My apologies if it hit you wrong.

 

 

Well, yeah, it hit me wrong Duke. We're good... but comments like the above kind of burn me a bit, as I really enjoy the game I've been playing since the mid-80s, and whenever someone looks for help that skews a bit different, I get chastised or a lecture on how I should run my game. Gods, that just makes me angry. I don't need lessons on how to run my campaign, I'm just looking for build advice most of the time. If I need help with my campaign, trust me, I will ask. 

[Duke Bushido]

Not trying to run your game for you, Sir.

 

Let's consider that the value of an undamaged suit is not being naked.  In game mechanics terms, not being naked has zero value because there are zero mechanics for or affected by naked / not naked.  (Note that this is _not_ the same,as protected / not protected, such as heavy clothing against the cold or bright clothing versus a stealth check.)

 

  Points buy mechanics, period.  A character can be defined as being covered in venomous spines.  That is what he looks like; he has those spines for free- no points.  However, there is no effect from them (aside from a possible boost to intimidation, because SFX have a nebulous (and increasingly tenuous) relationship with 'small potential bonuses and penalties' interactions with mechanics) until the character uses points to buy a mechanic:  Killing Attack, Damage Shield, Clinging, even High Range Radio Hearing-  something that makes them have a genuine, measurable effect on Characteristics or other Mechanics.  

 

A damaged suit or an unbreakable suit has no such thing: there is no mechanic for 'This much suit damage means X' or 'Pristine suit means Y.'  There are no damage statistics against which to apply either; there are no specified interactions or dice of effect to be applied against other mechanics.

 

They are free.  The apoearance of the suit is a special effect of the super suit, and unless it violates the core rules of a campaign, for the individual player to determine and define.

 

A GM is free to define his world in such a way that 'clothes must take damage' and even 'unbreakable clothes cost points.'  However, in keeping with the rest of the game, he should have a prepared mechanic in place to ensure that there is mechanical value- a measurable, applicable effect against a specific damageable characterisitc or other mechanic:  perhaps X percentage of missing clothing applies an automatic "look at this guy!" Disadplication with a roll- say 6-, with an additional 2 added for every additional X percentage of super suit that takes damage.

 

That leads to problems with determining percentages of damage, what does and does not damage the clothing, and of course the problems or complaints that simpler or more revealing suits require far less damage to achieve any given percentage of damage, or that actual armor users or Iron Man types must suffer penalties against their armor (to which the Iron Man characters will complain mightily, unless you have an additional explanation within your mechanic that defines how armor being part of the costume does or does not affect the way the suits take damage).

 

 

Shorter version:

 

Throughout the game, points buy only mechanics (which is likely why so many people create actual mechanics for their game with regard to Luck and Unluck: to fill in what instinctively feels like outlier 'lack of mechanics' powers, and why so many people- including the current custodian of the game- build new, measurable mechanics for Change Environment).  

 

Things that do not come with mechanics are considered SFX, and by tradition, those are free.

 

If you are prepared to put in the work to create the mechanics that give value to points expenditures--  and remember that even a single point can mean the difference between buying another die of some other ability or not being able to buy it; that a single point is a level of PD or some other valuable character-defining ability-- then by all means, do so.

 

 

I had a shorter-still version, but I opened with it earlier, and it didn't go over so well.

 

I would people to keep that in mind when they wonder why my posts are usually so damned long.

 

 

 

 

[Stanley Teriaca]

Im reminded of a gadgeteer I created, the heroic crossdresser The Damsel. He was a scientist working on a project to create a chemical formula to spray over clothing to make clothing totally indestructible. For His Own self enjoyment he added one of his southern belle dresses to the mix of test subjects. Oddly, it was the only one which reacted well to the flamethrower and Tommy gun test.

 

Note, the dress is indestructible, not the person wearing it.

Edited January 10 by Stanley Teriaca

[Tech]

Generally, most heroes have made their own costumes. However, nowadays, most suits are made by E (from The Incredibles).

[DShomshak]

HERO is so good at representing everything and anything in mechanical terms that I think it's easy to slide into thinking that everything *must* have a mechanical representation, paid for with points on a character sheet. I can unfortunately imagine an exchange something like this:

 

Rubber Band Man's Player: "The Sun Stone could be a source of limitless energy! I need to get it back to my lab to study."

 

GM: "How do you plan on moving it? Like the name says, it's as hot as the surface of the Sun. It isn

't burning anything right now because it's magnetically levitated. If you take it out of the starship engine, it won't be."

 

I'm On Fire Guy's Player: "My costume doesn't burn up when use my Damage Shield, so let's make a bag from my costume. We can carry it that way."

 

GM: <fixes glittering eye on player> "Oh? And did you spend points on your costume being fireproof all the time? If it's not on the character sheet, it doesn't exist."

 

Now, I think The GM is being a jerk. Players should be rewarded for clever use of resources and capabilities. Sketchpad found the phrase I was looking for before: Using the costume this way is a *power stunt,* which is a thing in HERO but mentioned so briefly that it's easy to forget about it. And even that's been "mechanic-ized" by adding the Power skill, with rules for your chance to fail depending on the Active Points of the stunt effect.

 

(One way, and not the only one, in which I think earlier editions were better *because* they were looser.)

 

Dean Shomshak

Edited January 10 by DShomshak

[Rich McGee]

1 hour ago, Tech said:

Generally, most heroes have made their own costumes.

Ma Kent and Alfred Pennyworth feel underappreciated. 

 

1 hour ago, Tech said:

However, nowadays, most suits are made by E (from The Incredibles).

PS238 had a few competing brands, from the high-end Heroic Xpressions to the more basic Steel Wear.

 

If you've never read the Las Vegas story arc where Julie "84" Finster loses her Steel Wear cape in action you really ought to.  It's one of the more touching moments in that series.  Starts with issue 28 and runs over 29 and 30.  There's reasons that comic got a HERO book of its own.