Sociotard Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 I misspelled that, I just know I did. Anyway, back to the question. This would probably require player permission, but has anyone ever tried a scenario in which there is absa-friga-lutely no chance the players will survive, much less win, just to see how long they can hold off the inevitable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 I have run horror games, if that's what you mean. -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 First scenerio in Champions Battlegrounds. Almost no way to keep the bomb from going off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 I've run and played in many short-runs with few or no survivors. Sometimes it's great to see who can die with the most style. -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trechriron Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 No. Umm, is that ok? The short answer? I feel kinda wierd but I felt compelled to answer SOMETHING. ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 Most of the games I've played in had enough risk built in to every fight that intentional KMs were not really necessary. That said, we did slog through several fights that we were meant to run away from. Most of those involved dragons IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost who Walks Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 Not in the Fantasy genre, but in the Superheroic I have. I set the players back in time to 1453 Constantinople (Modern day Istanbul). The turks were besieging the city, and the players were sent there to recover a magical artifact, needed in the future. In history, the city falls, and the Turks overrun most of SE Europe for the next 400 years. However, if the players had stopped it, there would have been no flood of refugees into Italy that started the Reinassance... They found the object they were looking for at the last minute, and escaped. I wanted to do a big war-battle type scenario, and this was an obscure enough place/time to do it. D20 even did a scenario module about Constantinople, as I recall. For Fantasy games, Turks make a great "evil empire" to research. (No offense to the modern Turks that I know ). Tolkien base his concept of "orcs" partly on Turks. Far as I am concerned, if it advances the plot and storyline, the players can lose. Just be sure to leave hints that they may not win this one. Note: Have never set up a situation to really kill off characters, having them get beaten is usually enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 I'm running one in my PBEM Vampire game right now. The scenario isn't designed to kill them in so much as it is designed to put them in a position where they have to make hard decisions. I've been fairly impressed with the level of roleplay thats emerged (thus far). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 Originally posted by D-Man I'm running one in my PBEM Vampire game right now. The scenario isn't designed to kill them in so much as it is designed to put them in a position where they have to make hard decisions. I've been fairly impressed with the level of roleplay thats emerged (thus far). Now -that's- something I do as a matter of course, with willing players -- put them in situations where there are no right or wrong answers, just difficult decisions that explore their characters and stretch their characterizations. For me that's the most rewarding game of all. -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterdeath Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 Re: Anybody ever pull a "Kobayashi Maru"? Originally posted by Sociotard I misspelled that, I just know I did. Anyway, back to the question. This would probably require player permission, but has anyone ever tried a scenario in which there is absa-friga-lutely no chance the players will survive, much less win, just to see how long they can hold off the inevitable? If the players know first, and are amenable, sure. That would require sort of knowing what's going on/what's going to happen to some extent. Let me know why/or that there's a really good reason, and you can red-shirt my character like there's no tomorrow. If not, no go. Lots of players, me included, put lots of loving care into their character, and having him wacked because the GM gets "a Kewl Idea" isn't copacetic. D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormraven Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 Never. Never, never, never. I detest no-win scenarios. I hate them as a player, so I will never inflict them upon my players as a GM. Note, however, that a lot of what other people say they've created aren't exactly 'no-win' scenarios. Setting up a situation where the characters have to run isn't 'no-win'. They can survive and return to fight another day. The whole point of the Kobayashi Maru scenario was that the Enterprise couldn't run and couldn't win. I'll set up situations where the characters have to run. I'll set up situations where the only options are unpalatable. I will not set up situations where the characters have no options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 It also depends on how the GM and players define "winning." I've set up situations where the PCs are going to get captured, no two ways about it, because that's where I want the plot to go. Now I've had players who are fine with that, because they know that there's going to be a payoff down the road; and I've had players who utterly despise that, because (in their minds) I toyed with them before humiliating them. (Then again I've also had players who just hate losing period. I don't care for them much.) In any campaign I try to track which way the players lean, so I can tailor my scenarios appropriately. That's the important thing, since we're all collaborators on a collective storyline. (My own preference as a player is to match the genre at hand. In a standard fantasy or gritty modern game, I'll try to be creative and get out of a dangerous trap any way I can. In a Star Trek or a Golden Age Champs game, though, if I'm in a room and gas starts pouring in, I'll clutch my throat, burst into a coughing fit and collapse to the floor. I don't need prompting to know how the genre works. ) -AA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted November 25, 2003 Report Share Posted November 25, 2003 Re: Never. Originally posted by Stormraven Setting up a situation where the characters have to run isn't 'no-win'. They can survive and return to fight another day. The whole point of the Kobayashi Maru scenario was that the Enterprise couldn't run and couldn't win. No, in the Kobayashi Maru scenario the Captain had the option of not violating the Neutral Zone. Remember one possibilitythat had to be considered was that this was not a legitimate distress signal, but a trap by the Romulans to create a diplomatic incident. It was a no-win scenario because it was impossible to rescue the ship sending the distress call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkling Posted November 29, 2003 Report Share Posted November 29, 2003 I have run no-win scenarios... but for throw away campaigns... The first time I GM'd chartmaster (I mean Role Master!, a friend brought over the books and said, "can you run this?"), I manufactured twelve characters at mid level, handed them out to the six players, and told them this was a playtest only, not permanent characters. Only one survived, and that was by leaving in the midst of the confrontation. I also did one of those scenarios as a playtest for Amber, to get the players used to the system before the attribute auction. The players eventually gave up on the scenario and decided to retreat into Corwyn's Pattern...which exited into the Abyss in Corwyn's world. They could not figure out any way to escape, and we called the game then and there. And anyone who has EVER played Paranoia is intimately familiar with the no-win scenario... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badger3k Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 With the exception of paranoia and cthulhu, I've never had a no-survive game (well, one that is designed for pcs not to survive - there's a difference). I've never really had one where the players couldn't win (in the long run - some losses are part of the campaign/storyline). In most situations, the players can win if they play smart. It's just that sometimes winning calls for a tactical withdrawl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catseye Posted November 30, 2003 Report Share Posted November 30, 2003 Well, i kinda believe in two things... (1) Players should have a chance to gain a feeling of accomplishment. Usually this means havign a goal they can reach, though maybe not the way they most like to reach it. (2) I don't deprive players of their PCs unless they are either intensely stupid, violate repeatedly some of my base house rules (such as "be a hero"), or request it. Having said that, i HAVE run two different TORG games that seem to start out with utter disaster and then gvie the players a chacne to redeem themselves. (My favorite, the one I wrote, "Time Pessages" takes them back in time to chnage the situation and then in the end foward again in time to the same scene they strated in, only now armed with what they need to succeed.) I think that can be VERY satisfying to the players. The closest I've ever come to running a "Kobiashi-maru" was ANOTHER TORg game I wrote, "The Faustus Project." the players DO end up achieving an important, even critical goal, that they were unaware of to start with. but in the process they discover at the end they have been fighting, and in fact been injuring and/or killing, the people they were originally tasked with saving. Its a sublte, bitter-sweet sort of thing and I usually don't push it too hard. I make one observation about the battlefield at the end and then leave it at that. One player actually asked me if they had done anything wroign adn i assured him that thre really was no other way the situation coudl have played out and that the scenario is desigend to sucker them in that way. Players seemed pretty satisfied. My theory is they did so because they coudl stil lsee that they did the best they coudl do with a less then eprfect situation and DID accomplish something significant and important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WonderStuff Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 A Moral Dilemma Hi. I found an interesting adventure on the internet (kudos to original author whom I've foregotten). This comes the closetest to a no-win I've ever run. Here's the premise (in short)... Scientist Bob is murdered by an assassin. Some time later, Bob comes back as undead to avenge his death and stop futher killings. Bob has a special awareness towards his killer and can locate him anywhere. Being a "Super Assassin", all authorities and super groups have been unable to find him. Heroes catch wind of all this. Being Undead, Bob's spirit can only be stopped by something like an exorcism which will vanquish his spirit and soul and prevent it from reaching "heaven". Anything less than this and Bob's "body" will reform and continue to track down assassin and kill him. Do the Heroes prevent Bob from killing the assassin and condemn him to "purgatory" ? Or do they allow him to hunt down and kill his assassin? (which is morally objectionable unless your Heroes are all Punisher/Wolverine types.) Anyone wanna hear what my Players did? The ramifications are felt to this day. (about 3 years since adventure was run) What would your Hero do? Mark (Wonder Stuff...great Band, fun character) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Divago Posted December 1, 2003 Report Share Posted December 1, 2003 A master i konw has put, in a old DnD- Mystara campaign, a Kobayashi Maru; the player are going to confront with SuperWizard gargantua. He's VERY VERY VERY powerful, and he can blast away the party with a simple hand, but he don't want their death, he want only their magic items The party cannot defeat Garagantua, but can accept the condition, and give him some Magic Items. Only one has accepted, and lose a little bit of magic items. Other have tried to confront him, and lose ALL their Magic Items... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korvar Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Re: A Moral Dilemma Originally posted by WonderStuff Anyone wanna hear what my Players did? The ramifications are felt to this day. (about 3 years since adventure was run) Well, I'm intrigued... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seenar Posted December 6, 2003 Report Share Posted December 6, 2003 I want my players to be able to win, but not win easily. I have been known to place players into situations where I have absolutely no idea how they are going to get out of it. The best example is having a dragon attacking their tower. I did nor foresee the group Paladin charging the damn thing as it hovered just off the ground and then climbing on its back! Meanwhile other on the team used a dimensional portal to go get help. All very clever. Though the best may have been in a Strikeforce: Moritoi based game where on player suggested stealing a mothballed space ship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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