Targeting Drain and Life Support

[Christopher R Taylor]

This question came up on the Facebook Hero page:
 

If you have a drain (or Transfer or suppress) vs. Life Support, do you get to choose what part of the life support you drain?
ie - Can you drain and target their immune to extreme heat? Or target their does not breath?

 

 

And it made me wonder: is Life Support one big power or a bunch of separate elements under a single heading?

That is, is your purchase of need not breathe, immortal, and endure heat extremes one power, or three powers under a single heading?

 

The reason this comes up is what Allan Price asks on Facebook: draining life support and targeting separate elements.  Do you have to drain it all to get any of the elements to shut off, or can you choose one and drain only that?

 

My thinking is that its separate powers, but maybe it only looks that way or can be purchased that way.  For example, one could theoretically have a small power pool control cost (5 active point maximum) but a fairly large pool.  that would let you buy a lot of small abilities and use them all at once. So you could buy LS: Temperature extremes, LS: immune to disease, and LS: breathe water as three separate powers in the pool.  But you couldn't buy, say, 5 ED, and 5 ED, and 5 ED as three separate powers unless they were clearly built to be distinct (like, RSR so they each one are less likely to work, or something like that).
 

[Grailknight]

My RAW interpretation would be that it is all separate powers. In my games, I consider life support to be inherent and thus immune to Adjustment Powers with the exception of Dispel vs Foci.

[Cantriped]

I don't think it is explicitly noted anywhere, but I would treat each Life Support Element as a separate instances of the same power (like the various forms of Damage Reduction, or Damage Negation). We simply tend bundle them all together to save line-space.

 

By which I mean:

You don't have to buy Drain Life Support (Does Not Breath) or Drain Life Support (Immortal); you simply buy Drain Life Support.

Drain Life Support affects any one of following powers: Life Support (Does Not Breath), Life Support (Immortal), or Life Support (Immune To Poison). However it only affects one of them per activation. I assume the player would define which one they target, the same way you might have to pick between draining Damage Reduction (Physical) or Damage Reduction (Mental) when using Drain Damage Reduction.

 

For example, one could theoretically have a small power pool control cost (5 active point maximum) but a fairly large pool.  that would let you buy a lot of small abilities and use them all at once. So you could buy LS: Temperature extremes, LS: immune to disease, and LS: breathe water as three separate powers in the pool.  But you couldn't buy, say, 5 ED, and 5 ED, and 5 ED as three separate powers unless they were clearly built to be distinct (like, RSR so they each one are less likely to work, or something like that).

I was going to say that Life Support cannot go into frameworks... but apparently it isn't classified as a Special Power... So it is totally legal, if somewhat cheesy, to build a Cosmic Life Support VPP and just give yourself whatever immunity you need on the fly.

Likewise, having three separate defense slots in the same framework is also legal (even though that is also kind cheesy). Technically speaking none of them are actually adding to one another (unlike having Blast 5d6 and Blast +5d5 to produce Blast 10d6), they all just happen to stack because that is how Defenses work regardless of how they are purchased. Most especially cheesy, each of those 5 ED slots would be a separate power for the purposes of being Drained. So the enemy would have to hit you with at least 3 Drains (or 1 Drain VPP) to deprive you of all of your defenses.

I don't think I would generally allow such shenanigans at my table, but per RAW they appear to be perfectly legal.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah inherent kind of bothers me.  I get that it should cost something to be unremovable, but it seems like some powers should just be that way innately.  If you have extra limbs, should you need to spend more just to make sure they don't fall off when someone shoots you with the drain gun?  Changing inherent growth to just be a complication and some definition gets away from that problem but still, there are some oddities.

 

On the other hand, even though my sight is inherent, I can still be blinded with a bright flash or something nasty thrown in them.  Its sort of an odd concept.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I would treat each Life Support Element as a separate instances of the same power (like the various forms of Damage Reduction, or Damage Negation). We simply tend bundle them all together to save line-space.

 

That's how I'm leaning as well, I like how you put it with the drain being one power because of the heading, rather than needing to buy all the different elements targeted separately.  On the other hand I can see if someone says that Life Support is supposed to be a single power and you have to drain it all at once because dang, draining someone's LS: heat extremes is so cheap.

 

 So it is totally legal, if somewhat cheesy, to build a Cosmic Life Support VPP and just give yourself whatever immunity you need on the fly.

 

 

Well it makes more sense if someone is a shapeshifter or magician, for example.

[Cantriped]

Yeah, Drain/Suppress Life Support is super cheap. It is the sort of thing I generally wouldn't allow (also up there are Drain/Suppress Extra Limbs, any Automaton Power such as Does Not Bleed, and Multipower Reserve/Variable Power Pool).

Life Support is the sort of power which should almost always be considered Inherent, but is rarely actually purchased as such. For Example, the Zombie in CC has Life Support Total and a bunch of Automaton Powers, but didn't purchase any of them Inherent. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I struggled with that when I built my Bestiary.  Almost everything a creature is built with should be inherent, but do I want every one of the builds to be 25% more expensive just to reflect something that almost certainly will never come up?  Especially for undead who are already cost-bloated due to automaton rules?

[Cantriped]

As an author/perfectionist I might. Just because the Hero System Bestiary didn't "do it right" doesn't mean I can't. However it would also be perfectly reasonable to just declare as a campaign guideline that such powers are Inherent at no additional cost (unless they were bought through Foci perhaps)*, and that Drain/Suppress Powers targeting those game elements were generally prohibited.

*So that you could have an Amulet Of Sustenance as a minor magical item, which would still be effected by Drain/Suppress Magic Items without having to take an "Uninherent" Limitation making them even cheaper than they already are.

[Ninja-Bear]

Fantasy undead paradox : undead should be immune to space and by the appropriate life support however you get what you pay for and if you never go to space then undead don't require it. It's there for completeness.

[dsatow]

I'd treat life support like  senses.  If you don't assign a specific sense/sense group, it will drain one at the defender's choice.

[Derek Hiemforth]

I think you logically have to treat it as separate powers.  While the RAW may not be totally explicit about this, I think it's clearly implied by both the way Limitations apply to Life Support, and by the cost table for Life Support (where each type has its own cost or cost range, rather than saying "+x points" in the manner that, say, Invisibility does).

[Hyper-Man]

I think I would also require a special effect to be defined upfront for such an Drain though.

 

From 6e1 pages 137-138:
 

SPECIAL EFFECTS AND SPECIFIC POWERS
Generally speaking, characters buy Adjustment Powers in one of two ways. The first way is to buy an Adjustment Power that affects the target Characteristic or Power regardless of the Characteristic’s or Power’s special effect. For example, an Aid STR affects any type of STR, whether it comes from a character’s natural muscles, a suit of powered armor, a magic spell, super-steroids, or the like. Similarly, a Drain Blast would affect any sort of Blast — a power beam, a lightning bolt, a rubber bullet, and so on — regardless of special effect.

The second way is to define the Adjustment Power as only affecting Characteristics or Powers of a given special effect. Typically this is done with the Variable Effect Advantage or the Limited Special Effect Limitation (see below).

 

HM

[Hugh Neilson]

I was going to say that Life Support cannot go into frameworks... but apparently it isn't classified as a Special Power... So it is totally legal, if somewhat cheesy, to build a Cosmic Life Support VPP and just give yourself whatever immunity you need on the fly.

Green Lanterns and mystical characters use LS: UBO from their power pools all the time.

 

Yeah inherent kind of bothers me.  I get that it should cost something to be unremovable, but it seems like some powers should just be that way innately.  If you have extra limbs, should you need to spend more just to make sure they don't fall off when someone shoots you with the drain gun?  Changing inherent growth to just be a complication and some definition gets away from that problem but still, there are some oddities.

Is the flaw that the Extra Limbs were not Inherent (maybe they are a Mutant Power in a game that regularly features Power Suppression - an Inherent Extra Limb stays, but most would be "unmutated"), or is it in the Drain Gun? "Explain what it is about your Drain that causes it to reduce or remove extra limbs, or the ability to breathe underwater" seems just as reasonable as "explain why your water breathing or extra limbs can be drained".

 

On the other hand, even though my sight is inherent, I can still be blinded with a bright flash or something nasty thrown in them.  Its sort of an odd concept.

My STUN is also inherent, but attacks reduce it. One oddity is that we end up able to Drain or Suppress extra limbs, or the ability to breathe water, but not base limbs or the ability to breathe Earth's atmosphere.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah for me its less about how drains work than trying to understand how inherent works.  It seems radically inconsistent to me

[Hyper-Man]

Yeah for me its less about how drains work than trying to understand how inherent works.  It seems radically inconsistent to me

 

I think the consistency of implementation of Inherent has some parallels with the implementation of Background Skills that almost never get used in game.

 

HM

[Cantriped]

My STUN is also inherent, but attacks reduce it. One oddity is that we end up able to Drain or Suppress extra limbs, or the ability to breathe water, but not base limbs or the ability to breathe Earth's atmosphere.

Although your Characteristics are inherent (in that they are a natural part of your anatomy), they aren't "Inherent" (in that they cannot be Adjusted).

It is sort of odd though that you can Drain Extra Limbs, but not 'Basic Limbs'. Not being able to Drain your ability to breathe air makes some sense though, because that isn't an Everyman Power, its an Everyman Complication (which buying the appropriate Life Support is equivalent to buying off). 

[Ninja-Bear]

I thought the oddity of inherent canme with wings. If you bought flight-as wings with inherent, then drain flight (or even aid flight in some games) became problematic. I.e. If you made a gravity well defined as drain-flight, now wings won't be afffected even though sfx wise it should.

[Hyper-Man]

I thought the oddity of inherent canme with wings. If you bought flight-as wings with inherent, then drain flight (or even aid flight in some games) became problematic. I.e. If you made a gravity well defined as drain-flight, now wings won't be afffected even though sfx wise it should.

 

That supports the argument that Drains should always be tied to a SFX. However, what exactly is Inherent being applied to? Flight or Extra Limbs.  I didn't think it was legal to be put on a movement power.

 

edit

per HD, applying Inherent to a movement power would also require 0 END and Persistent first.

 

HM

[Christopher R Taylor]

That supports the argument that Drains should always be tied to a SFX

 

 

Well, and conversely, power defense should be SFX based as well.  I've long thought that Power Defense, the catch-all defense for a host of effects, is too cheap and should be broken down a bit more.  Maybe 3/2, then 1 point for specifics like "only vs drains" or "only vs magical effects."  I can buy Energy Defense working against fire and electricity as one cost, but not power defense working against being turned into a newt, radiation burned, and having your Ego drained by Cthulhu's insane presence all at once.  Its too diverse.