Overpowered or not (Metamorph with all the Powers)?

[Steffen]

1 hour ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

Without knowing the whole story, I’d have to say the problem isn’t with Champions, but is with the players and the GM! These players sound like Pathfinder munchkins who don’t understand the concept of Champions at all. On one hand, it sounds like too many people trying to manipulate the rules without knowing them well enough. On the other hand it sounds like too many people who don’t want to actually play to their concepts(both their advantages AND limitations), which is critical in Champions. The openness of character creation is a benefit, but people who are trained to think in terms of classes, and all the munchkinny aspects that go with it, have a hard time with defining their own limitations. Everyone has to cooperate at this basic level first, and the GM needs to enforce a clarity of concept for each hero.

 

I think you are absolutely right although I do not blame Champions or the HERO system at all. I only think that it is not suitable for everyone. Or maybe not everyone is suitable for the HERO system.

 

Although he knows the approach of the players to roleplaying for more than two decades the GM underestimated the problems that would arise. I think he simply trusted that everyone understood what he wanted but didn't expect that he had to supervise everything.

 

I'm also quite sure that the other two players really believe that they are being treated unfair because they are not allowed to have the characters they want and should be able to build using the HERO system. The rules clearly state that the system can build everything but it is the GM who keeps them from doing so.

[massey]

The thing that stands out to me is that the power level seems extremely low. A 25 active point limit is frankly pathetic when it comes to superheroes.  Really you just might not have enough points to play certain character concepts.

 

Has the GM run Hero before?  Because it seems like there's a fear of allowing the players to have powerful characters, and sometimes that's due to inexperience.  At very low levels, munchkinism can become more pronounced.  If you have fewer points to spend, you have to be more careful in how you spend them, to make sure you get the most bang for your buck.  That might be what you're running into here.

 

For the game to be enjoyable, I've usually found that every character needs an attack power, a defensive ability, and movement.  It doesn't matter if you swing from buildings or teleport across the city, or whether you've got a fire blast or know kung fu, or if you are bulletproof or can become intangible.  As long as you've got attack, defense, and a way to get to the action, you're okay and you'll have fun.  At very low levels, many players find they don't have the points for those 3 things unless they cheese it out.  It sounds to me like most of your characters don't really have those abilities, and it's creating tension with the players who managed to get all three (because of a clever build, or more experience with the system).

 

I think the solution is to increase the points totals, so that everybody can be reasonably effective.

[Surrealone]

On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 11:46 AM, Steffen said:

 

Systems like Pathfinder give the GM and players clear rules for what is possible and allowed and clearly show which abilities a character can have at any given level while HERO only suggests rough guidelines and grants a lot of freedom.

This makes the GM directly responsible for the restrictions he imposes on this freedom in order to keep the game balanced and the campaign world in accordance with his vision. 

Hero gives VERY clear rules for what is possible and allowed … and also clearly defines how many abilities a character can have at any given point level.  At the bare minimum, a HERO GM need only set the campaign point level and adhere to RAW (rules as written) while saying 'no' to players when they try to game the system with their builds.  However, many GMs find it useful to set active point limits on offensive abilities, defensive abilities, etc … which is as simple as defining the maximum number of active points a player can have in such things at a time.  None of this is hard.  There's no confusion incurred in such freedom, because like every other RPG of this type, the GM's say is final.

 

Put another way, the system isn't the problem; a player trying to game it … who argues with the GM incessantly … is.

[Brian Stanfield]

On 12/3/2017 at 2:49 AM, Steffen said:

After the first two sessions the GM was still struggling to understand the actual theme of the player in question and discussed this with him. The theme is defined as “total body control” with the character modifying his body as needed. The character should be able to become superstrong, supertough, invulnerable, superfast, be immune to diseases and poisons, breath underwater, change shape etc.

He wants to buy powers more or less in in this order:

Increased physical Characteristics (all of them, including resistant defenses), Healing, Enhanced Senses, body modifications like gills (life support) and Extra Limbs (tentacles, additional arms etc.). He also wants movement powers like Flight and Clinging and also Shrinking, Growth, Stretching and Density Increase.

 

In all honesty, a VPP would pretty much solve this problem. With your cap at 50 CP and 25 AP, he could make a VPP and discover just how low-powered it would be. He wouldn't have enough points to make a 50/25 VPP, so would have to settle for something like a 25/25 or 30/20 VPP, which will be so limiting that it may eliminate his desire to try to do everything. It would be its own limitation. Problem solved.

[Steffen]

7 hours ago, massey said:

The thing that stands out to me is that the power level seems extremely low. A 25 active point limit is frankly pathetic when it comes to superheroes.  Really you just might not have enough points to play certain character concepts.

 

Has the GM run Hero before?  Because it seems like there's a fear of allowing the players to have powerful characters, and sometimes that's due to inexperience.  At very low levels, munchkinism can become more pronounced.  If you have fewer points to spend, you have to be more careful in how you spend them, to make sure you get the most bang for your buck.  That might be what you're running into here.

 

For the game to be enjoyable, I've usually found that every character needs an attack power, a defensive ability, and movement.  It doesn't matter if you swing from buildings or teleport across the city, or whether you've got a fire blast or know kung fu, or if you are bulletproof or can become intangible.  As long as you've got attack, defense, and a way to get to the action, you're okay and you'll have fun.  At very low levels, many players find they don't have the points for those 3 things unless they cheese it out.  It sounds to me like most of your characters don't really have those abilities, and it's creating tension with the players who managed to get all three (because of a clever build, or more experience with the system).

 

I think the solution is to increase the points totals, so that everybody can be reasonably effective.

 

Please note that all players were aware that we would start with inexperienced low-level characters that would gain XP very quickly. The original post was written 10 months ago, we played once a month and received 5-10 XP per session. Right now all characters have 205 CP.

 

The GM has run HERO before but with a different group and a completely different setting. As far as I know the characters were built with even less points and the players were still having fun.

 

I also know from experience that you can build and play superheroic characters with 150-200 CP and have fun.

 

Your assumption that characters were not able to afford attacks, defenses or movement powers is not correct.

 

[Steffen]

45 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

In all honesty, a VPP would pretty much solve this problem. With your cap at 50 CP and 25 AP, he could make a VPP and discover just how low-powered it would be. He wouldn't have enough points to make a 50/25 VPP, so would have to settle for something like a 25/25 or 30/20 VPP, which will be so limiting that it may eliminate his desire to try to do everything. It would be its own limitation. Problem solved.

 

The original question was not how the character concept could be built, it was if the concept should be allowed. The GM was aware that a VPP was the most logical way to build it but decided that he didn't want VPPs in his campaign for (legitimate) fear of abuse.

 

The GM simply didn't want a superhero with the theme "all the powers the player thinks are useful".

[Brian Stanfield]

7 minutes ago, Steffen said:

 

The original question was not how the character concept could be built, it was if the concept should be allowed. The GM was aware that a VPP was the most logical way to build it but decided that he didn't want VPPs in his campaign for (legitimate) fear of abuse.

 

The GM simply didn't want a superhero with the theme "all the powers the player thinks are useful".

 

Ahh, I see. Well, regardless, this may be one of those cases of “give ‘em exactly what they want,” and let them fall out of love with the idea because a weak VPP is no fun to play. It’s virtually impossible to abuse at such low levels. Perhaps the best way to teach how to play to concept is to take the opposite approach and let them be anything they want, but very poorly. This could reinforce the idea that a tight concept has its own rewards.  But as you say, this is one of the few things the GM has disallowed, so the point is moot.

[massey]

205 points is still not much.  Consider that a low powered starting hero is usually about 250.  You guys have been playing for a year and you aren't even there yet.  I'd say you're still in the range where there's not much room for error in character design. 

 

Metamorph characters are usually pretty weak.  The truth is, a character with a lot of different powers (like a Superman or a Martian Manhunter) generally have to split their points between so many separate abilities that they end up doing nothing well.  A more focused character will usually be much more effective than one who tries to do everything.

 

You haven't given us any character sheets or anything, so I can't tell exactly why you're having problems in the game.  I'm not up on Pathfinder enough to know what the game balance between classes looks like, but you know those powerhouse classes that everyone wants to play?  A metamorph is not that.  Metamorphs would be more akin to those classes that nobody plays because they are well behind the power curve.  And you're wondering if they should be allowed because it's overpowering your game.  This information just does not compute.

[Steffen]

14 minutes ago, massey said:

You haven't given us any character sheets or anything, so I can't tell exactly why you're having problems in the game.  I'm not up on Pathfinder enough to know what the game balance between classes looks like, but you know those powerhouse classes that everyone wants to play?  A metamorph is not that.  Metamorphs would be more akin to those classes that nobody plays because they are well behind the power curve.  And you're wondering if they should be allowed because it's overpowering your game.  This information just does not compute.

 

The original question of this post has been settled. I am not wondering anymore if the metamorph is overpowering the game. This is not the reason why the group does not work.

[IndianaJoe3]

11 hours ago, massey said:

205 points is still not much.  Consider that a low powered starting hero is usually about 250.  You guys have been playing for a year and you aren't even there yet.  I'd say you're still in the range where there's not much room for error in character design. 

 

I think it's possible to do a street-level superheroic game at the 175-point level. The trick is scaling the rest of the game to fit. 

[Steffen]

5 hours ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

I think it's possible to do a street-level superheroic game at the 175-point level. The trick is scaling the rest of the game to fit. 

 

That's correct. The GM tried to keep the challenges and fights suitable for our characters.

 

However, I have to admit that the low starting points have been a problem for the player of the TK character. She wanted to make a reluctant character that would would never be seen with the group and would look like an innocent bystander when using her powers while the rest of us were fighting villains. All of her powers were supposed to be completely invisible and cost no endurance at all but this resulted in a very low TK Strength and Blast so she was unhappy. Oh yes, and she wanted to have a gun.

 

The GM was unhappy because from the start he had asked us to create good superheroes without Killing Attacks that wanted to help people and explicitly mentioned to not have brooding misanthropes with deep seated emotional problems that refused to be part of the group.

 

The ensuing discussions and arguments were the main reason why my enthusiasm was quickly curbed.

[Scott Ruggels]

Been reading this thread, and it strikes me that the player of the Magical girl did everything right. The GM imo wasn’t firm enough. Mutli-Animal Man, sounds... young, especially with his arguments with the Magical Girl’s concept appearing more versatile than his character. And in previous non Hero games, what sort of role did he fill in the group?  He sounds to me as if he may be a bit of a spotlight hog, and that causes problems with the more team based nature of a lot of Champions games. 

[Steffen]

Multi-Animal Man prefers versatile characters that can always do something no matter the situation. He loves having a solution for every problem, a plan for every challenge. As far as I know he usually plays wizards or other magic-users with lots of spells in Pathfinder and in earlier editions of D&D he loved psionics because they were extremely powerful. The more options his characters have the better.

But I have never heard before that he wanted another character to be less versatile than his own.

 

You are probably right that the GM was not firm enough but he wanted everyone to be happy with their character and now it's just not worth the trouble anymore. 

[Doc Democracy]

On 10/11/2018 at 4:44 PM, massey said:

For the game to be enjoyable, I've usually found that every character needs an attack power, a defensive ability, and movement.

 

I think this is generally true UNLESS the campaign trope is against it.  I ran a very enjoyable game where I asked the players to have a singular power.  Much more like the original X-Men.

 

one player had invisibility, another had invulnerability, another had super-strength and one had eye-beams.

 

It was a very interesting game precisely because they did not have rounded characters.  In a normal game though, everyone needs to feel comparable in the basics to have fun.

 

Doc

[Brian Stanfield]

On 12/3/2017 at 2:49 AM, Steffen said:

For information:

We are playing characters at the start of their career with 50 CP for the unpowered human and 50 CP for superpowers with an AP limit of 25 points.

 

It sounds like maybe there’s a communication problem with the GM here? Just to review, it sounds like you have 100 point characters. Is this true? Because that’s really the source of the problem, even for beginning supers. It’s crazy-low points, which will leave everyone feeling dissatisfied if they think they will have powers that can do anything useful. 50 points with a 25 point AP cap doesn’t sound like anybody could build a character they’d be happy with. Perhaps the GM had an idea that everyone would eventually grow into useful powers as they get experience? This would be a slow process, but has some merit as long as this is communicated to the group. 

 

21 hours ago, Steffen said:

 

That's correct. The GM tried to keep the challenges and fights suitable for our characters. . . .

 

The GM was unhappy because from the start he had asked us to create good superheroes without Killing Attacks that wanted to help people and explicitly mentioned to not have brooding misanthropes with deep seated emotional problems that refused to be part of the group.

 

The ensuing discussions and arguments were the main reason why my enthusiasm was quickly curbed.

 

17 hours ago, Steffen said:

You are probably right that the GM was not firm enough but he wanted everyone to be happy with their character and now it's just not worth the trouble anymore. 

 

Yeah, this really sounds like a problem with GM expectations, communication, and enforcement. Champions is not hard to learn at a basic level, but it takes a long time to master. It sounds like perhaps the group ought to hit a reset button and rebuild their characters with a better understanding of what the constraints are. And the GM needs to be more proactive in a supervisory role with the character building process. 

[Brian Stanfield]

By the way, I’m totally sympathetic here because I’ve been thinking of teaching Champions to all new players, and this scenario is exactly why I haven’t tried yet!

[Ninja-Bear]

On 10/12/2018 at 7:14 AM, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

I think it's possible to do a street-level superheroic game at the 175-point level. The trick is scaling the rest of the game to fit. 

You know if you stick most villains such as thugs at Normal or Skilled then yeah this is a doable concept. Perhaps maybe boosting them to and even 200 CP.

[IndianaJoe3]

3 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

You know if you stick most villains such as thugs at Normal or Skilled then yeah this is a doable concept. Perhaps maybe boosting them to and even 200 CP.

 

I did run a game at 225 points and it worked OK. One of the reasons I was playing with such low point totals was so a, "trained normal" could plausibly compete with supers. It also meant I didn't have to explain why the world didn't change drastically when people started getting superpowers.

[Steffen]

2 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

It sounds like maybe there’s a communication problem with the GM here? Just to review, it sounds like you have 100 point characters. Is this true? Because that’s really the source of the problem, even for beginning supers. It’s crazy-low points, which will leave everyone feeling dissatisfied if they think they will have powers that can do anything useful. 50 points with a 25 point AP cap doesn’t sound like anybody could build a character they’d be happy with. Perhaps the GM had an idea that everyone would eventually grow into useful powers as they get experience? This would be a slow process, but has some merit as long as this is communicated to the group. 

 

Yes, we started our first session with 100 point characters but everyone was fully aware that the characters would only be slightly super in the beginning. The GM told us that we could only afford 2-4 powers for the first session but that we would be able to increase or buy powers very quickly although it would take some time before we would be as powerful as comic book or movie superheroes. Our characters should start as "people with powers" similar to the "Heroes" TV show so that criminals with guns would pose a danger and slowly evolve into superheroes.

During the first session we played the origin story, discovered and used some of our new powers and mainly talked and used skills. We got 10 points for this and 5-15 points after the following sessions so we could quickly improve our characters.

 

Maybe there is a communication problem but then it is with the two other players who dismiss the information they receive from the GM.

[Brian Stanfield]

18 minutes ago, Steffen said:

 

Yes, we started our first session with 100 point characters but everyone was fully aware that the characters would only be slightly super in the beginning. The GM told us that we could only afford 2-4 powers for the first session but that we would be able to increase or buy powers very quickly although it would take some time before we would be as powerful as comic book or movie superheroes. Our characters should start as "people with powers" similar to the "Heroes" TV show so that criminals with guns would pose a danger and slowly evolve into superheroes.

During the first session we played the origin story, discovered and used some of our new powers and mainly talked and used skills. We got 10 points for this and 5-15 points after the following sessions so we could quickly improve our characters.

 

Maybe there is a communication problem but then it is with the two other players who dismiss the information they receive from the GM.

 

Sounds like a cool concept. I’ve considered doing something like this before. But more importantly it sounds like the GM needs to have a powwow with the non-compliant characters. Good luck to your group! It sounds like it could be fun. 

[Steffen]

2 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

By the way, I’m totally sympathetic here because I’ve been thinking of teaching Champions to all new players, and this scenario is exactly why I haven’t tried yet!

 

You shouldn't be put off by the problems we are experiencing. If your players are cooperative and you didn't have problems with them before you will probably also not have problems with them when playing Champions.

[Steffen]

4 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

Sounds like a cool concept. I’ve considered doing something like this before. But more importantly it sounds like the GM needs to have a powwow with the non-compliant characters. Good luck to your group! It sounds like it could be fun. 

 

Thanks for the good wishes but as I wrote when resurrecting the thread we will only play about two more times to finish the story arc and then never again play Champions with the non-compliant players. The complaints and discussions have spoiled the  campaign for my girlfriend (Magical Girl character) and me.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 10/13/2018 at 12:20 PM, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

I did run a game at 225 points and it worked OK. One of the reasons I was playing with such low point totals was so a, "trained normal" could plausibly compete with supers. It also meant I didn't have to explain why the world didn't change drastically when people started getting superpowers.

Cool! I’ve been playing around writing up some Public domain Supers at 225!

 

And a side note, I just watched Batman: Bad Blood, and I think anyone who shoots at a Hero automatically takes a -3 OCV. But only with guns.