Batman builds/STR Chart/NCM

[Ninja-Bear]

51 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Yup - put any limitation on it (ANY limitation - how about "OIHID", or potentially even a -0 limitation) and the NCM rule stopped applying.

 

 

800 kg = 1763.6981 pounds.  Not quite a ton.  I guess it depends on which "cinematic" we are discussing.

 

As the Bats discussion in DC Heroes years back noted, this is well beyond Olympic weightlifting records - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_Olympic_weightlifting

Umm Hugh did you look up what a snatch and a clean and jerk are? Theyre both lifting weights over ones head. That is a far from barely lifting a weight.

[Ninja-Bear]

Just looked up Deadlift-where you bring the barbel to your hips. Record is set at 500 kg.

[massey]

The most that the NCM crowd can do is point out that Batman is not realistic.  I think we all accept that.  So what?  Batman isn't limited by what is realistic.

[Cassandra]

21 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

That's a build. Now put words with it that relate it to the conversation at hand about NCM and STR.

 

Batman is an Olympic Level Athlete but is not the Perfect Human like Captain America.  Both would have 20 STR but Batman has 18 DEX while Cap has 20 DEX.  Batman has more weapons but Cap harder to hit.

 

It's the difference between a Wildcat and a Zero.

[Cassandra]

Captain America

 

Val Char Cost

20 STR 10

20 DEX 30

20 CON 20

15 BODY 10

18 INT 8

14 EGO 8

20 PRE 10

18 COM 4

8 PD 4

6 ED 2

4 SPD 10

10 REC 4

50 END 5

35 STUN 0

Total Characteristics Cost: 125 Points

 

Cost Skills

3 Acrobatics 13-

3 Breakfall 13-

8 CSL: Combat +1

3 FB: Federal Police Powers

2 Navigation [Ground] 13-

3 Reputation: Superhero 14-

3 Tactics 13-

Total Skills Cost: 25 Points

 

Cost Powers

24 Armor +8 rPD +8 rED

50 Multipower (50 Points)

5 u) EB 10d6

3 u) Invisibility [Hearing], No Fringe, No END (+1/2)

2 u) Leaping +10", 8x NCM

3 u) Missile Deflection [All Ranged Attacks] +5

2 u) Running +5", 8x NCM

3 u) STR +30

8 Running +4"

Total Powers Cost: 100 Points

 

Total Cost: 250 Points

 

150+ Disadvantages

5 DF: U.S. Army Uniform (Easily Concealable/Noticed)

5 DNPC: Peggy or  Sharon Carter (Slightly Less Powerful) 8-

10 Hunted: Red Skull (As Powerful) 8-

10 Hunted: U.S. Army or SHIELD (More Powerful/NCI/Watch) 8-

20 Normal Characteristics Maxima

20 PsyL: Code Of The Hero (Very Common/Strong)

20 PsyL: Superpatriot (Common/Total)

10 SocL: Secret of Public Identity [Steve Rogers] (Occasionally/Major)

Total Disadvantages Cost: 250 Points

 

 

Batman

 

Val Char Cost

20 STR 10

18 DEX 24

20 CON 20

12 BODY 4

18 INT 8

11 EGO 2

20 PRE 10

18 COM 4

8 PD 4

6 ED 2

4 SPD 12

8 REC 0

40 END 0

32 STUN 0

Total Characteristics Cost: 100 Points

 

Cost Skills

3 Acrobatics 13-

3 Breakfall 13-

8 CSL: Combat +1

3 Criminology 13-

3 Deduction 13-

2 Navigation [Ground] 13-

3 Streetwise 13-

Total Skills Cost: 25 Points

 

Cost Powers

24 Armor +8 rPD +8 rED

50 Multipower (50 Points)

5 u) Darkness [Sight] AE 4"r, [12c/Duration 1 Turn] (+1/4)

2 u) Desolid, Cannot Pass Through Solid Objects (-1/2), Does Not Protect Against Damage (-1), 1/2 END (+1/4)

5 u) EB 4d6, AE One Hex (+1/2), NND [LS: Self Contained] (+1), [16c] (-0)

5 u) EB 8d6, Invisible [Hearing] (+1/4), [16c] (-0)

5 u) Entangle 5d6 DEF 5, [16c] (-0)

2 u) Gliding 10", 8x NCM

3 u) Invisibility [Hearing], No Fringe, No END (+1/2)

3 u) Missile Deflection [All Ranged Attacks] +5

2 u) Running +5", 8x NCM

3 u) STR +30

1 u) Stretching 2", Always Direct (-1/4), No Noncombat (-1/4)

2 u) Swinging 10", 8x NCM

5 ES: UV Sight

8 Running +4"

Total Powers Cost: 122 Points

 

Total Cost: 250 Points

 

150+ Disadvantages

5 DNPC: Alfred Pennyworth (Useful Normal) 8-

10 DNPC: James Gordon (Unaware Useful Normal) 8-

5 Hunted: Catwoman (As Powerful/Mild) 8-

10 Hunted: Joker (As Powerful) 8-

20 Normal Characteristics Maxima

20 PsyL: Code Versus Killing (Common/Total)

20 PsyL: Protective Of Innocents (Very Common/Strong)

10 SocL: Secret Identity [Bruce Wayne] (Occasionally/Major)

Total Disadvantages Cost: 250 Poitns

 

 

 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Cassandra 20 isn’t the cap for Human even with NCM. NCM just means that you pay double points between 20-30.  And Capt. Amaerica has been shown to be able to lift at least a motorcycle above his head.

[Cassandra]

29 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Cassandra 20 isn’t the cap for Human even with NCM. NCM just means that you pay double points between 20-30.  And Capt. Amaerica has been shown to be able to lift at least a motorcycle above his head.

 

That's why he has +30 STR in the Multipower.

[Hugh Neilson]

8 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Just looked up Deadlift-where you bring the barbel to your hips. Record is set at 500 kg.

 

Not much past that 20 STR, 400 kg limit.  Not seeing anyone getting 800 kg (25 STR, bought 5 points at double cost) off the ground to stagger forward, but I could see eyeballing those recordholders at a 25 STR - might be able to get 800 kg off the ground for a second or two,

 

8 hours ago, massey said:

The most that the NCM crowd can do is point out that Batman is not realistic.  I think we all accept that.  So what?  Batman isn't limited by what is realistic.

 

True, dat.  Like action movies, or RPG characters.  I don't find many escapist hobbies focus on the realistic.

[Pattern Ghost]

The Ultimate Brick has a nice expanded Lifting table that has actual weight lifting lifts in it. Might be worth perusing.

[Pattern Ghost]

Just some more random thoughts on the topic...

 

I wonder how much STR it would take to lift a rickshaw with a passenger in it off the ground from the ends of the poles and throw it a hex or two?

 

I've read somewhere that Lee actually lifted the rickshaw with his own strength. I'm not sure if that's true, or BS. BUT . . . this is cinematic Bruce Lee. Whether you believe that his training techniques in real life or in the movie were in play, there is a conceit in the genre that advanced physical training will let someone exceed the normal limits. I wouldn't expect too many people with Lee's build, regardless of training would be able to duplicate the feat shown above.

 

In the comics, martial arts training (and sometimes other physical training) will let characters exceed normal human limits. That's to say, there's a HUGE difference between the "training" origin, and being a normal person. Training lets you exceed normal. Often in spectacular ways. That's why NCM doesn't really belong in a superhero setting, IMO. If player wants to have stats that are impossible for a real world human to accomplish, and the origin is that they just trained better, then it's completely in genre.

 

Of course, you probably want to set some limits. Or you end up with this guy:

 

 

His workout:

 

Now, the thing is, in Hero we only have one Characteristic with a firm real world benchmark (setting aside basic movement abilities and their interaction with SPD), and that's STR. So, it's entirely reasonable to set different numbers for different characteristics as cutoffs for origins that involve training without some additional enhancement.

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

20 minutes ago, Pattern Ghost said:

The Ultimate Brick has a nice expanded Lifting table that has actual weight lifting lifts in it. Might be worth perusing.

I thought someone mentioned that in the UB that lifting a weight to hips is -5 STR and overhead is -10 STR which would make 25 STR line up not too badly.

[Pattern Ghost]

11 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I thought someone mentioned that in the UB that lifting a weight to hips is -5 STR and overhead is -10 STR which would make 25 STR line up not too badly. 

 

OK, I looked it up. It gives percentages for different lifts. Not really a table, but part of the text under the header "Optional Lifting Parameters":

 

Bench Press: 75%

Clean and Jerk: 50%

Dead Lift: 90%

Leg Press: Double (or +5 STR)

Snatch: 40% (Like a Clean and Jerk, but have to keep the weight up for a bit)

 

So, for a 20 STR:

 

Bench: 300 kg / 661 lb (World Record: 1102 lbs)

Clean and Jerk: 200 kg / 440 lb (World Record: 263 kg / 580 lbs)

Dead Lift: 360 kg / 794 lb (World Record: 1041 lbs)

Snatch: 160 kg / 353 lbs (World Record: 220 kg / 485 lbs)

Leg Press: 800 kg / 1763 lbs (World Record: Appears controversial)

 

Now, a 25 STR would blow those World Records away by a long shot. Maybe 21 to 23 is appropriate for the very strongest humans? And at the time the STR table was conceived, these records hadn't been set. So, 20 STR = 400 kg seems to have been a pretty solid estimate of the upper limit of actual human STR.

[Ninja-Bear]

I’m reading DC Oresents vol 5 of Batman. He just punched a thug through a door. How many DCs is that?

[Cassandra]

4 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I’m reading DC Oresents vol 5 of Batman. He just punched a thug through a door. How many DCs is that?

 

Interior Door only has a DEF 3.

[assault]

The key thing with Champions is "design for effect", not "design according to dogma". Of course the two aren't entirely distinct, since "dogma" determines the effect you want. In this case, Batman sucks. (And all the other comparable characters don't exist, or suck even more.)

 

If we want to examine it from a game mechanical point of view, we could consider the following theoretical characters:

 

"Batman1": This character is subject to NCM, doesn't exceed the limits it suggests, and instead buys "other stuff" to compensate. I would never play this character, so I will leave it for other people.

 

"Batman2": This character is subject to NCM, but pays the extra cost to exceed the limits it suggests.

 

"Buttman": This character isn't subject to NCM, buys the same characteristics as "Batman2", and can blow smoke out of his butt. (Darkness)

 

"Iron Munchkin": This character is subject to NCM, but buys the same characteristics beyond the NCM "limits" as "Batman2" through a focus, and buys some other stuff as well.

 

They all spend the same number of points.

 

If NCM is a Disadvantage rather than a campaign guideline, three of these characters get 20 points for it. The other ("Buttman") takes a different 20 points worth of Disads. Do these Disads disadvantage the character more than NCM? If so, "Iron Munchkin" wins. If not, "Buttman" gets extra stuff "Batman2" doesn't, for no extra point cost.

 

If we need a baseline for considering the different characters, maybe "Batman2" buys his Dex to 26 and his Spd to 6. Everything else is below the NCM "limits" and thus costs the same for all characters.

[assault]

If we want to benchmark characters, how about 1956 DC? Marvel wasn't publishing superheroes at this time, and the subsequent flood of DC superheroes hadn't started yet.

 

Basically, there were the following characters:

Superman/Superboy (I'm just going to consider Superman from now on.)

Wonder Woman

Batman

Flash (started being published in 1956.)

 

These all had their own titles.

 

There were also the following backup/supporting characters:

Robin

Aquaman

Green Arrow

Speedy

Batwoman (Kathy Kane)

 

(Technically there was also the Martian Manhunter, but who cares about him?)

 

This gives us a good set of benchmarks. I'm going to roughly clump them together. We don't need to argue the finer points.

 

In terms of strength, from highest to lowest:

Superman

Wonder Woman

Aquaman (Mostly a "guy who talks to fish" at this point.)

Batman/Green Arrow

Flash/Batwoman (adults)

Robin/Speedy (kids)

 

Dex/Speed:

Flash/Superman

Wonder Woman

Batman/Green Arrow

Batwoman/Robin/Speedy

Aquaman? (Maybe on a part with the characters immediately above)

 

"Toughness"

Superman

Wonder Woman

Aquaman (Arguably, he could be comparable to Wonder Woman. I wouldn't object to a build that did that.)

Batman/Green Arrow

Flash/Batwoman/Robin/Speedy (Split these up if you want. The point is that they are inferior to the characters above.)

 

Obviously these lists can be disputed, but I think they are broadly correct.

 

Batman and Green Arrow consistently show up in the middle of the lists. That's why I argue that Batman is a mid-range superhero in terms of power, not one at the bottom of the pile.

 

Add other characters to taste, but I don't think a fair sample would really change things.

[Ninja-Bear]

Thing is with Complications being less than Disadvantages, NCM isn’t as needed as before. I think NCM was attractive pre6th if you are like me and try to scramble to get disadvantage points.

[Lucius]

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 5:25 PM, Pattern Ghost said:

That's a build. Now put words with it that relate it to the conversation at hand about NCM and STR.

 

Up to that point, the conversation at hand as far as I could tell hadn't been about NCM and STR.

 

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 12:01 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Yup - put any limitation on it (ANY limitation - how about "OIHID", or potentially even a -0 limitation) and the NCM rule stopped applying.

 

 

It doesn't take a Limitation. You can put an ADVANTAGE on a Characteristic and make it CHEAPER.

 

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 4:17 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

Cassandra 20 isn’t the cap for Human even with NCM. NCM just means that you pay double points between 20-30.  And Capt. Amaerica has been shown to be able to lift at least a motorcycle above his head.

 

NCM doesn't mean you pay double points between 20 and 30. First of all, you could keep going past 30 and keep paying double. Second, 20 was where the double cost cut in only for certain Characteristics: END and STUN had higher points before doubling, SPD had a lower point. (no one can legally get a SPD of 20 anyway.)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says it's probably just a matter of time before Lucius Alexander brings out the Florist Friars again

[Hugh Neilson]

Lucius, I think the 30 point "cap" came from commentary in CU products that any stat over 30 was superhuman.  It was not imposed on NCM, but why would you apply NCM if you are going to buy any primary stat to 30?

 

I toyed with a Fantasy Hero Elf with 30 DEX, for 90 points.  He gets a 4 SPD and 10 CVs out of the gate, with 60 points to buy other stuff.  He'd get along nicely with the Florist Friars.

[Lucius]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Lucius, I think the 30 point "cap" came from commentary in CU products that any stat over 30 was superhuman.  It was not imposed on NCM, but why would you apply NCM if you are going to buy any primary stat to 30?

 

 

It might have been imposed on you as a campaign rule.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary imposed a rule that if an 18 is rolled, everyone passes their character sheet to the player to the right.

[Ninja-Bear]

10 minutes ago, Lucius said:

 

It might have been imposed on you as a campaign rule.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary imposed a rule that if an 18 is rolled, everyone passes their character sheet to the player to the right.

Lucius I took the 30 point as a Cap because unless the GM rules otherwise, 30 is maximum a Normal human can have. So if your taking NCM you shouldn’t buy any stat above 30. Clairify you shouldn’t buy any stat above benchmark maximum that the GM imposes on Normal. ( I forget that some stats are in the 50 Range, for me, mentioning 30 is short hand for benchmark maximum.)

[Greywind]

NCM also interacted with the Age Disadvantage which is where the 50 comes from.

[Pattern Ghost]

11 hours ago, Lucius said:

Second, 20 was where the double cost cut in only for certain Characteristics

 

Specifically, all the Primary characteristics. Figureds were 8 for PD/ED, 4 SPD, 50 END and STUN, and 10 REC. I think most people talking about NCM think of the primary stats first.

[Pattern Ghost]

1 hour ago, Greywind said:

NCM also interacted with the Age Disadvantage which is where the 50 comes from.

 

50 comes from baseline END and STUN. Age lets primaries in non-physical primary stats go to 25 for 40+ and 30 for 60+, while dropping everything else except DEX and SPD.

[Hugh Neilson]

20 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

It might have been imposed on you as a campaign rule.

 

Sure, but now we're talking about a mechanic intended to enforce a campaign guideline (its effectiveness in achieving that goal is another matter entirely).

 

As a disadvantage/complication, it is free points if you had no intention of buying higher stats, and would never be taken by someone with many stats above the NCM breakpoint.  Again, why can my Brick not get complications for "pays double for mental powers"?  He's restricting his point spends too.  Not as significantly, but that means it should be worth less, not worthless, if we accept that such concepts are appropriate complications.  Maybe the value should double if he can't spend points on these items at all, instead of just doubling the cost?