How are we to damage a Super Dreadnought?

[Beholder]

Ok, I just bought the book spacer toolkit and was about to start a campaing. My players are specialist like the Away team as in startrek in a 1.5 KM ship. They will participate in a large amount of different missions

 

Now, I just looked at the stats of the Apocalypse on page 61 - 62 of the spacer toolkit.

------------------------------------------------

This ship has a

- base defence of 25.

- An outer force field of 25 PD/ED

- A hull force field of 15 PD/ED

Total of 80 points of endurence (note that the ship as a REC of 500 and a speed of 3)

Further more

- Ablative armor of 38

- Hull armor of 20 hardened.

 

For a big total of 123 of defences when everything is up and 85 without the ablative armor. How in the name of god are any kind of Terran Empire ship to destroy this vessel?

 

Ok for some weird reasons, they put the armor with Ablative (shouldn't it be a force field or something with ablative? remember that Ablative defences affect a damages first)

 

Anyway, any thought on how to blow this ship with TE weaponry?

 

Beholder

 

So I need help. Short of an other Apocalypse autodestructing with its 166RKA damages.

[BobGreenwade]

Very carefully.

 

Seriously, probably the only way one could reliably destroy an Apocalypse (or Victorious or Brimstone) would be to ram it (that is, do a Move Through) at high speed with a like-sized ship.

 

It's not called a "Super-Dreadnought" for nothing!

[Beholder]

Don't know what to say.

 

Even two Apocalypses fighting one against the other one is a useless process...

 

How could you imagine a fight between 2 fleets and then only the battleships on each side are left. What do they do? Call for a truce? ram each other as you said?

 

If one of the 2 is headed for a planet to blow the planet with nuclear missiles. The only thing the other battleship can do is try to hit the missiles as they leave the other battleship.

 

Funny situation when the defences are more powerfull then the attack powers, brings a new dynamic to fighting behemots

 

Even coordinated attack woudn't change anything. They help in the stun but not in the damages.

 

Anyway, my players will be safe and sound inside that vessel, That is not too bad a situation, I wanted the campaing to center on their away mission, this way their mobile base of operation will always be there

 

Thanks for the reply about the Ram, don't know what else would work.

 

Beholder

[McCoy]

Needle gaussgun1d6 RKA vs PD, AP, Pen, autofire, 1000 charges

 

Mount a dozen or so of those where they can all fire in the same arc.

[Kristopher]

Don't attack the ship, attack points on the ship. Go for open docking bay doors, open weapons ports, sensors, the force field projectors, anything that can weaken the ship.

 

I'm not sure if standard HERO rules allow for that kind of thing.

[Beholder]

Well the penetrating idea is good, but in this case, the Apocalypse still has 20DEF Hardened.

 

For hiting inside open cargo doors, Even without the armor, the shields are still 40 points total of defences.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Beholder

Well the penetrating idea is good, but in this case, the Apocalypse still has 20DEF Hardened.

 

For hiting inside open cargo doors, Even without the armor, the shields are still 40 points total of defences.

 

That's why you get REALLY close...like, inside the outer shields.

[Monolith]

Please check out my replies in this thread:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8753

[McCoy]

Originally posted by Beholder

Well the penetrating idea is good, but in this case, the Apocalypse still has 20DEF Hardened.

 

For hiting inside open cargo doors, Even without the armor, the shields are still 40 points total of defences.

Which is why you buy the Armor Piercing along with the Penetrating, or Double Penetraiting if you prefer. In fact, checking FREd, Double Penetraiting would be better.

[Aroooo]

Originally posted by Beholder

Even coordinated attack woudn't change anything. They help in the stun but not in the damages.

 

There is an optional rule in TUV about coordinated attacks vs. ships and vehicles (pg 184). Basically, it talks about combining the BODY of coordinated attacks vs. overcomming vehicle defenses. So, even a few small to mid size ships could gang up on even the biggest ships and hurt it.

 

Aroooo

[Beholder]

Originally posted by Aroooo

There is an optional rule in TUV about coordinated attacks vs. ships and vehicles (pg 184). Basically, it talks about combining the BODY of coordinated attacks vs. overcomming vehicle defenses. So, even a few small to mid size ships could gang up on even the biggest ships and hurt it.

 

Aroooo

 

...And on page 216 of star hero, thanks for pointing that out to me

 

[Monolith]

 

Your examples were very instructive in the other thread, thanks a lot. I noticed that I simply restarted the same thread all over again

 

Can you tell me where are the rules for the antimater missiles? I have Star hero and Spacer toolkit.

 

BTW, I bought the herodesigner writeup of TE and Spacer toolkit and the ablative in these writeups uses the optional rule that makes the ablative defences lose 5 active points at the place of decreased activation roll. I like that a lot.

 

Thx again

Beholder

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Beholder

Your examples were very instructive in the other thread, thanks a lot. I noticed that I simply restarted the same thread all over again

 

Can you tell me where are the rules for the antimater missiles? I have Star hero and Spacer toolkit.

The Nuclear Space Missile is in Star Hero on page 195. The Antimatter Missile uses the same write up but increases the damage to 25d6. This is in Terran Empire on page 165.

[Sketchpad]

You could also use something to dispel the force field and send in your strike team via a transporter to set charges against the reactor ... the only problem is getting out before they find you

[DigitalGolem]

In addition to the ideas mentioned so far, Find Weakness could be extremely useful. This could be used to simulate a gunner's ability to hit weak points in the target's defenses, or as a fire control computer designed for the same purpose. If the Find Weakness roll is high enough, and the hardware isn't too large or expensive, this could make any ship with such a system very dangerous, even to a super-dreadnought.

 

However, I don't have the ship's stats with me; how much Lack of Weakness does it have?

 

thanx heaps,

 

DGv3.0

[Beholder]

Originally posted by DigitalGolem

However, I don't have the ship's stats with me; how much Lack of Weakness does it have?

 

thanx heaps,

 

DGv3.0

 

None IIRC. So here`s another weak point for the ship.

 

The idea of dispel to permit and infiltration is also very nice. I do not permit teleportation in my setting, but a strike team in an electronic cloaked shuttle could indeed infiltrate the other ship.

 

Nice, very nice.

[Sketchpad]

Originally posted by Beholder

None IIRC. So here`s another weak point for the ship.

 

The idea of dispel to permit and infiltration is also very nice. I do not permit teleportation in my setting, but a strike team in an electronic cloaked shuttle could indeed infiltrate the other ship.

 

Nice, very nice.

 

Thanks

[Starwolf]

Here are a couple of ideas from Alternity and Wing Commander (the game not the "ACK!" movie).

 

1) From Alternity Boarding pods... These are missile type pods that attache themselves to ships hulls, There are several variants; one that drains shielding (suppress vs FF/FW), one that drains ships energy (Drain vs END), One that acts as a Grapple (TK), one that Shuts down FTL thus preventing escape, and my favorite, one that holds a boarding party of space marines/Commandoes.

 

2) From Wing Commander... Most fighters are tougher than in movies taking from 2 missile strikes to many laser hits to destroy. But fighters can be very threatening to ships by carrying torpedoes... For instance imagine a wing of 12 fighters each armed with lasers for fighter to fighter combat and each also carrying a belly slung Anti-Matter Torpedoe (missile). Even a dreadnought would fear a coordinated strike from a dozen Anti-Matter topedoes of 25d6 AP mega scale explosions. The fighters don't need to get that close, only firing range for the torpedoes.

 

There are historical precedence for the fighter tactics....during WWII the most feared attack against Naval vessels was torpedoe fighter/bombers.

 

Also note that IRL the mission of Carrier/Fleet escort vessels includes having the destroyer intercept and take the torpedoe hit itself, if need be, so that the Carrier can survive to launch its fighters and bombers. That is why ships operate in fleets and almost never alone.

 

Your resident retired Navy dude (20 years)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Starwolf

Your resident retired Navy dude (20 years)

20 years in the Navy and you now live in Utah? Landlubber.

[Starwolf]

Well I couldn't get a better compromise....I live within 3 miles of the largest body of salt water in the world outside of the ocean....

[Farkling]

Heh heh heh.

 

Boarding shuttles.

 

10d6 Suppress versus Force Field...only affects field immediately surounding shuttle craft.

 

And for the hull....1" Tunnelling through DEF 25...Armor Piercing.

[levi]

Instead of Suppress, you could buy it as Desolidification, Only to pass through FF. That way there's no monkeying around with dice and active points.

[Lord Liaden]

Now that could be a nasty little advanced "secret weapon" - the Phase Torpedo. Phases out of normal space until it passes through a ship's defenses, rematerializes inside it, then BLAMMO!

 

Don't think I'd want something like that as a regular part of my campaign, unless it was being used by a particular advanced race; but stealing the prototype or the secret of defending against it would make a nice espionage adventure.

[DigitalGolem]

Originally posted by Farkling

Heh heh heh.

 

Boarding shuttles.

 

10d6 Suppress versus Force Field...only affects field immediately surounding shuttle craft.

 

And for the hull....1" Tunnelling through DEF 25...Armor Piercing.

 

One of Saberhagen's Berserker stories had something like this. It was a boarding craft with a long ram in front, designed to pierce the hull, absorb the shock (yeah, right.) and the front end had an air lock for boarding the Berserker after the impact.

 

I'd simulate this as extra Def, 3/4 damage reduction, and extra armor-piercing damage, only useable with move-thru maneuver, one non-recovering charge, side-effect (vehicle is semi-permanently stuck in target) and requires skill roll (piloting, or maybe luck). I like that tunnelling idea, too!

 

Assuming all this would work as a boarding technique, it also raises the possibility of using the same system to deliver a warhead. Sounds like a combination of armor-piercing and indirect.

 

As an aside, I'd be cautious of getting carried away with all these bizarre methods to defeat super-dreadnought defenses. If taking out a ship like this was too easy, then nobody would bother building it to begin with. On one level, it's a matter of cost-effectiveness. You don't go to war in a billion-credit dreadnought if a million-credit weapon system can destroy it; your enemy has a thousand-to-one monetary advantage. I don't usually quote president Bush, but he summed up the problem quite well, after 9-11.

 

"I'm not going to launch a million-dollar cruise missile at a ten-dollar tent in the desert just to hit some camel in the butt."

 

thanx heaps,

 

DGv3.0

[Starwolf]

As an aside, I'd be cautious of getting carried away with all these bizarre methods to defeat super-dreadnought defenses. If taking out a ship like this was too easy, then nobody would bother building it to begin with.

 

This is exaclty why we don't build battleships today. A single fighter (around $14 million with weapons installed) can take out a multi-billion dollar ship single handed. And usually the aircraft can stand off, out of the ships weapon ange to fire said weapons.

 

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Now that could be a nasty little advanced "secret weapon" - the Phase Torpedo. Phases out of normal space until it passes through a ship's defenses, rematerializes inside it, then BLAMMO!

 

Also done in a Saberhagen 'Berserker' story. Missiles that incorporated a short hyperspace jump drive, they would skip towards their target, popping into real space for brief instants in order to make course adjustments. The last time they pop into real space, of course, is inside the target.

 

Another option might be the meson gun from Traveller High Guard. You fire a cloud of unstable mesons at a target. Mesons decay (and explode) after a set interval, but you can control their decay rate by accelerating them to relativistic speeds. They don't interact with normal matter so the idea is to time the decay to happen inside the other guy's ship. Hard to score a hit with but ignores armor and sandcasters.