5e questions from a newish group

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

My group's picked up HERO System and been loving it for a couple months, but occasionally we've run into something that stumps us.  We're using Fifth Edition Revised. 

 

Desolidification: A character with Desolid affected by magic is clearly blocked by a magic Force Wall.  But can they use their attacks without Affects Physical World to affect said wall?  What about a Force Wall with Affects Desolid?  What about a magic Focus? 

Of particular interest to me is Entangle.  Does an Affects Desolid Entangle force a desolid character to deactivate the desolidity to begin trying to escape (barring Affects Physical World)? 

 

Density Increase: It feels like the mass increase downside is trivially circumvented with Flight.  What are ways to make sure a heavy flyer is still impacted by their mass? 

Can a character buy limitations on the Leaping increase that Density Increase provides?  If so, how should that limitation be handled? 

 

Drain vs Suppress: Why would I want Drain instead of Suppress with Reduced Endurance 0 END?  It seems like the former costs more and gives less.  What am I overlooking? 

Same question regarding Aid and Succor. 

 

Leaping vs Running: What makes Running worth twice as much as Leaping?  I can see some advantages, but not enough in my mind to merit twice the cost.  What am I missing? 

Similar question for Running vs Flight with No Turn Mode and possibly Only In Contact With A Surface. 

 

Summon: What makes Specific Being worth +1?  Why is "Summon my guardian angel" so much more expensive than "Summon guardian angel"?  It seems more like a Limitation since conditions and damage accrue.  What am I missing? 

 

Telekinesis vs Strength: Somebody in my group wants a high STR character with TK.  They don't want to "pay twice" for the STR.  Are there any good solutions beyond "Multipower it"? 

 

Grabs and Knockback: Character A has grabbed character B.  B suffers knockback from an attack.  What happens?  Does it matter which direction the knockback is in? 

 

STUN Only: A player has expressed interest in being able to selectively apply the STUN Only limitation (-0) to their STR to comply with their Psychological Limitations without compromising their ability to break things.  Since they're getting their STR through an Element Control, Multipower isn't an option.  Is there a good way to do this? 

[Christopher]

I know my way around 6E a lot better, but these are the kind of rules that have not generally been affected by the version change.

 

Desolid: I think the general answer was no. Attacking anything from Desolid requires the "Affects Physical World" Advantage, +2. Attacking from Desolid is a very powerfull ability, hence the high price tag.

The special effect you are still affected by is a limitation. A mandatory limitation. To make certain the "absolute unaffectable" does not run away.

There is a exception that allows you to attack characters with the same special effect for Desolid freely. This can even be seen happening in this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yrrh6BsVfLE

Of coruse the GM is free to expand this onto Magic Foci, Magic Force walls and the like. But doing so can quickly become a balancing nightmare.

 

Density Increase: 6E has the writeups that allow you to disect powers like Density Increase, Growth and Shrinking into their component powers.

The heavy mass of density increase is primarily a feature, I think. It is where the knockback resistance comes from.

As long as Normal Stats + Density increase do not exceed the campaign limits, it should be fine. If they do, DI has to be reduced or dropped. It is supposed to be a cheaper way to get to Campaign limits, not to consistent exceed them.

 

Supresss is a constant power. If you are stunned or knocked out, 100% of the effect is lost. Drain is a instant power. Hit them once, and the effect has to decay over time. A number of cases of "red sunlight weakens Supermans Kryptonian Powers" might be better done with Drain then Supress.

 

Leaping vs Running: Running is actually just the baseline power. It was deemed that on average, Leaping is a whole lot less usefull the running. The limitations are pretty steep as it is flying with very limited control.

However the pricing of movement powers is highly succeptible to the campaign. In a underwater campaign for example, the prices for flight and swimming should propably be flipped: Swimming is de-facto flight underwater. And you will get as rarely to fly in the air as you swim in the normal campaings.

If leaping becomes too usefull due to special things in teh world, the price can be increased closer to running easily.

 

Summon: I will have to copy the 6E text here as my 5E PDF does not support copy & paste. But this part of the rules seems to have been unchanged to a letter. speicific beign is potentialyl dangerous, wich is why in 6E it is marked with a STOP sign. Effectively it is a form of unbreakable Mind Control.

" Summon normally allows a character to Summon a specifc type of creature — a wolf, for example, but not a dog, fox, or lion. Te Summoner may pay extra Character Points to Summon creatures from broader groups (see Expanded Class, below). Characters should not use Summon as a cheap form of Teleportation, nor as a way to Summon an individual so the Summoner can kill him. A character should only use Summon to Summon a type or class of being, not a specifc being (unless the GM gives permission and the character pays for the appropriate Advantage; see below)."
" A Summon power with this Advantage can Summon a specifc individual, whether that individual is defned generically (the King of Valdoria) or by name (King Arkon of Valdoria). In general, the GM should only allow
this Advantage when the Summoned being is deceased (Summoning his spirit through necromantic powers) or has been precisely located with some other power.
A Summoned specifc being appears in his current condition at the time of Summoning. If he’s injured, he’ll be injured; if he’s sleeping or Knocked Out, he’s asleep or unconscious; and so forth. If the specifc being is killed, the character permanently loses the Character Points spent for the ability to Summon him (though the GM may allow the character to convert the power into the ability to Summon the specifc being’s ghost, spirit, or the like)."

'My guardian angel' should fall into GM allow territory. It still allows potentially gathering information by sending the summoned being on suicide scouting (Naruto Shadowclone Style).

 

Telekinesis: Telekinesis is somewhat dangerous for game balance. It is effectively "STR, on Range, Does not suffer Damage Shields". The last thing you need is letting a character also excert the same STR as a Brick (unless of course he was build on more points then said brick).

Stretching allows you to use your strenght on range, but it does subject you to damage shields and coutner attacks. And possibly attacks along the way.

 

Grab and Knockback: For that I would have to dig.
 

STUN Only: You are in a power framework. So just buy an extra variant of STR, STUN Only (-0), can not be used with other STR Powers (-?) in paralell. Elemental control always had such issues, wich is why in 6E it got removed. Multipower and VPP and a "affect by drain as a group" limitation is all that is left.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

Thank you for your insights! 

 

I think I understand Specific Being better now, I was approaching it (and Summon as a whole) as "Summon thing that would normally not be in campaign" without considering the possibility of "Summon thing from elsewhere in campaign". 

 

The answer to Grab and Knockback is, so far as I can tell, completely absent from 5E Revised. 

[Asperion]

I am not positive of the actual RAW right now (no books around), but this is how I would handle grabs and KBs.  Both chars will be hit by the attack and suffer the KB.  If one has KB resist, then the KB is reduced by that amount.  Any remaining KB will be applied to their combined mass.  Then both will be knock back by that amount and suffer additional damage.  This most likely will force the grabber to release the grabbee (unless the grabber succeeds in a roll maintain the grab).  

[Grailknight]

As I remember, for Grab and Knockback, the Grabber makes a STR roll at minus the inches of KB to retain the grab.

[archer]

On 12/9/2018 at 8:41 PM, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

My group's picked up HERO System and been loving it for a couple months, but occasionally we've run into something that stumps us.  We're using Fifth Edition Revised. 

 

Desolidification: A character with Desolid affected by magic is clearly blocked by a magic Force Wall.  But can they use their attacks without Affects Physical World to affect said wall?  What about a Force Wall with Affects Desolid?  What about a magic Focus? 

Of particular interest to me is Entangle.  Does an Affects Desolid Entangle force a desolid character to deactivate the desolidity to begin trying to escape (barring Affects Physical World)? 

 

I'm not sure if there's a definitive answer.

 

If I were running the game, a power which Affects Desolid is desolid itself on some level and can be interacted with by the Desolid character. A Desolid character can interact with a Force Wall which is stopping him, can use basic Missile Deflection without any advantages to interact with any attack which Affects Desolid, etc. Whatever is happening to the Desolid character is solid to him or it wouldn't be affecting him.

 

There might be some special effects for Desolidification power where I wouldn't think handling it like that is appropriate but for a character like Kitty Pryde, that's how I'd do it. Otherwise a 1d6 Entangle which Affects Desolid just completely neuters multiple published characters, heroes and villains. And how would a classic character like a haunting ghost who is permanently Desolid ever do anything after being hit with that 1d6 Entangle?

 

 

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Density Increase: It feels like the mass increase downside is trivially circumvented with Flight.  What are ways to make sure a heavy flyer is still impacted by their mass? 

Can a character buy limitations on the Leaping increase that Density Increase provides?  If so, how should that limitation be handled? 

 

The Density Increase drawbacks are being offset by having to spend points to purchase another power and spending END on that power. That makes it pretty much self-limiting, in my opinion.

 

As for the limitations on Leaping, probably no more than a -1/4 limitation on the Density Increase. It might not be worth even that much, in my opinion, if the character has other movement powers.

 

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Drain vs Suppress: Why would I want Drain instead of Suppress with Reduced Endurance 0 END?  It seems like the former costs more and gives less.  What am I overlooking? 

Same question regarding Aid and Succor. 

 

Suppress can only work on one target at a time (or one group of targets if it is an area of effect). With a Drain, you can hit new targets with it every phase and the Drain lasts until it finally wears off.

 

Look at it this way, if Grond is wanting to pound you into paste, Suppressing his STR is a fine solution to your problem. But if Grond and SuperStrongGuy want to pound you into paste, Suppressing Grond's STR at best only solves half of your problem...and your Suppress power will never solve the other half of your problem while using a Drain in back-to-back phases might.

 

 

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Leaping vs Running: What makes Running worth twice as much as Leaping?  I can see some advantages, but not enough in my mind to merit twice the cost.  What am I missing? 

Similar question for Running vs Flight with No Turn Mode and possibly Only In Contact With A Surface. 

 

This is a game balance question which was probably determined during the couple of decades of playtesting. Leaping has significant drawbacks to it like having to make an attack roll in order to land exactly where you want, being 1/2 DCV in certain circumstances, and taking multiple phases to complete long leaps (without the possibility of changing your mind about your destination). In contrast to that, Running has far fewer drawbacks and is useful in more situations. I think they reduced the cost of Running in 6e and changed several things about Leaping such as the base of how much Leaping you get as a base to decouple it from your STR so that Running and Leaping are much closer in costs.

 

The Running vs Flight with No Turn Mode and possibly Only In Contact With A Surface. They cost out the same, the real differences are which Suppress or Drain power affects your movement power and whether you want to run up the sides of buildings. Also Running has a base movement which your character gets for free while Flight doesn't.

 

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Summon: What makes Specific Being worth +1?  Why is "Summon my guardian angel" so much more expensive than "Summon guardian angel"?  It seems more like a Limitation since conditions and damage accrue.  What am I missing? 

 

It probably has something to do with a specific person's resources. If I can summon the president of the US rather than a random rich guy, the president has extensive contacts and resources which he could use to my advantage which goes beyond what some random rich guy might have access to. If I can summon my mother on Mother's Day, that's much more important to me than having the ability to summon a random mother.

 

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Telekinesis vs Strength: Somebody in my group wants a high STR character with TK.  They don't want to "pay twice" for the STR.  Are there any good solutions beyond "Multipower it"? 

 

Having to pay twice for it is built into the system deliberately. While there might be various ways to build the effect, they are all going to cost the character points.

 

If they don't want to pay for it twice, they could skip buying the STR and just buy the TK (which can be used either hand-to-hand or at range)...but that has it's own variety of drawbacks.

 

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Grabs and Knockback: Character A has grabbed character B.  B suffers knockback from an attack.  What happens?  Does it matter which direction the knockback is in? 

 

The direction of knockback always matters. As for the rest of the question, I don't remember a hard and fast rule. For my opinion:

 

If character B is touching the ground and/or has knockback resistance, he has the same chance of resisting the knockback as if he were not grabbed.

 

I would probably make character A do a contested STR roll to determine whether he hangs on to character B or not (maybe the dice in the attack vs STR) or some such roll since there's obviously a chance he'll lose his grip if character B takes knockback. Character B might even be able to coordinate his escape attempt to the incoming blast to try to get an advantage.

 

If character A is touching the ground, and hangs on to character B, the knockback from the blow would have to overcome any of character B's resistance plus any of character A's resistance since they will be moving together.

 

 

 

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STUN Only: A player has expressed interest in being able to selectively apply the STUN Only limitation (-0) to their STR to comply with their Psychological Limitations without compromising their ability to break things.  Since they're getting their STR through an Element Control, Multipower isn't an option.  Is there a good way to do this? 

 

If by "good way" you mean "doesn't cost a pile of points", I'm not sure. "Turning off the possibility of doing BODY whenever you want" sounds suspiciously like an advantage rather than a limitation. But setting that aside...

 

He could buy the limitation as "STUN only against living creatures (or sentient creatures)" but then the power gains a free sensory power to detect life or sentience (which is a big no-no in my book).

 

If he bought a separate power of Detect living creatures (alternatively "sentient creatures") at range and as a sense (rather than as a half phase action), I could go along with that limitation. That power would cost 10 points.

 

If he went that route, I'd make the STR default automatically to STUN only when it's unknown (for example, if he is blindfolded and restrained so that he couldn't use the Detect power).

 

Of course going that route requires the right combination of special effects to not be jarring. I could see a mystic character's Elemental Control working like that, for example, but I'd have a tougher time accepting a high-tech hero whose powers work like that.

 

 

 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

Once again, thank you. 

 

1 hour ago, archer said:

Suppress can only work on one target at a time (or one group of targets if it is an area of effect). With a Drain, you can hit new targets with it every phase and the Drain lasts until it finally wears off.

 

Look at it this way, if Grond is wanting to pound you into paste, Suppressing his STR is a fine solution to your problem. But if Grond and SuperStrongGuy want to pound you into paste, Suppressing Grond's STR at best only solves half of your problem...and your Suppress power will never solve the other half of your problem while using a Drain in back-to-back phases might.

Unfortunately, the example provided for Suppress directly contradicts this.  It shows a character using a Suppress STR on two separate targets and maintaining parallel instances. 

 

2 hours ago, archer said:

It probably has something to do with a specific person's resources. If I can summon the president of the US rather than a random rich guy, the president has extensive contacts and resources which he could use to my advantage which goes beyond what some random rich guy might have access to. If I can summon my mother on Mother's Day, that's much more important to me than having the ability to summon a random mother.

Wouldn't the PotUS have already paid for all the advantages of being PotUS and thus already be more expensive to Summon as a result?  Why would, to give a slightly different example, Summon Senator Richard Burr be twice as expensive as Summon Senator? 

[Duke Bushido]

On December 11, 2018 at 3:42 PM, Grailknight said:

As I remember, for Grab and Knockback, the Grabber makes a STR roll at minus the inches of KB to retain the grab.

 

 

I don't know if that's book legal or not, but it's pretty close to what we've always done:

 

STR roll at minus 5 STR per inch of Knockback to hold on.  If the hold is maintained, then both characters suffer the knock back, reduced by the combined mass of the characters ala Density increase or Growth.  

 

For example, if both characters are roughly the same mass, then treat it as one level of Density Increase, granting (I think this is the same through all editions) -1 Knockback.  If the grabbing character is two or three times the mass of the restrained character, treat it as two levels of DI.  If one or both characters have knockback resistance, the higher value applies.

 

Again, don't know if it's book-legal, but it works pretty well.

 

Hope that helps.

 

 

[IndianaJoe3]

On 12/12/2018 at 6:31 PM, archer said:

It probably has something to do with a specific person's resources. If I can summon the president of the US rather than a random rich guy, the president has extensive contacts and resources which he could use to my advantage which goes beyond what some random rich guy might have access to. If I can summon my mother on Mother's Day, that's much more important to me than having the ability to summon a random mother.

 

I think it's to keep Summon from being a cheap way to kidnap/rescue someone. With a VPP, one could theoretically summon anyone, with no defense.

[Christopher]

16 hours ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

I think it's to keep Summon from being a cheap way to kidnap/rescue someone. With a VPP, one could theoretically summon anyone, with no defense.

And do not forget "mind control someone". That is what services are, after all.