[6th] Hit Locations?

[Tywyll]

With Killing Attacks stun multiplier reduced to d3, why are hit locations the same as earlier editions?

[Duke Bushido]

Body damage remains the same, and Stun-wise: well, I suppose we could explain that as each location hurts just as many times more than another the way it always has. 

 

The KA reduction was, I personally believe, an attempt to square off the abuses of the Stun Lottery that came before. 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

Thanks, Hugh.  From you, that means a lot.  

 

 

[Tywyll]

13 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Body damage remains the same, and Stun-wise: well, I suppose we could explain that as each location hurts just as many times more than another the way it always has. 

 

The KA reduction was, I personally believe, an attempt to square off the abuses of the Stun Lottery that came before. 

 

 

Oh, I get why KA was reduced. But if anything, I would think a setting that uses hit locations, and is therefore more realistic/deadly would reduce those modifiers to stay in line, otherwise  you end up with those settings dangerous Body attacks knocking people out like they used to. 

[Hugh Neilson]

Most of the issues identified with the STUN Lotto were identified in Supers games where hit locations were rarely used.

 

Hit locations also modify normal attacks, so that may have been one aspect that lead to those games having less issues.

 

As well, the higher the "defense to DC ratio", if you will, the more valuable the KA stun lotto becomes, for punching a lot of STUN past defenses and thus being the better choice to KO the opponent.

 

To the qualitative assessment, are kills rather than KOs more realistic?  I don't think that is what happens in real life, but perhaps someone with medical training/experience wants to weight in there.

[LoneWolf]

As Hugh pointed out normal attacks are also modified with hit locations.  That being the case the old charts are going to end up doing less stun than if they reduced the modifier and adjusted for hit location.  Assuming a head shot is a x3 stun multiple that would work out to a x6 if hit locations were taken into account.  Currently it is a x5 stun multiple.  If there are only 3 multiples the charts would have to be reworked to account for that which would mean there would probably be more x3 multiples  which would make the situation even worse. 

 

You also have to factor in that under the hit location rules your chance of getting x5 multiple is slightly less than 5%.  Without hit locations your chance of getting the maximum stun multiple is 33% under 6th edition, and about 17% under 5th edition. 

 

Overall hit locations actually reduce the stun of a KA compared to that of a normal attack even further than the reduction of the die used to determine the stun multiple.

[dmjalund]

Aren't hit location modifiers for Normal a]and Killing attacks already seperate?

[Hugh Neilson]

I think Lonewolf is assessing the possibility of using the Normal Damage multiples for all attacks, including Killing Attacks with a 1d3 multiple.  So a head shot would always double the STUN and BOD rolled, whether the attack was normal or killing, but the KA could roll a 1, 2 or 3 Stun Multiple to  begin with. 

 

A Head Shot with a KA would do either 2x, 4x or 6x (depending on the 1d3) and a Hand shot would do 1x, 2x or 3x, under that model.

 

2d6 HKA head shot on the current hit location shot averages 14 BOD and 35 STUN.  6d6 Normal attack averages 12 BOD and 42 STUN.  However, because normal STUN is multiplied after defenses, defenses are effectively also multiplied by the N Stun Multiple (so defenses help less against STUN from a Foot hit than a Head hit). 

 

A Standard Heroic character with 8 DEF, 4 rDEF will take [7 - 4 = 3 x 2 =] 6 BOD and [7 x 5 = 35 - 8 =] 27 STUN from that killing head shot, or [6-8 = 0 x 2 =] 0 BOD and [21 - 8 = 13 x 2 =] 26 STUN from the normal attack.

 

A Shoulder hit will do [7 - 4 = 3 x 1 =] 3 BOD and [7 x 3 = 21 - 8 =] 13 STUN from a KA, or [6-8 = 0 x 1 =] 0 BOD and [21 - 8 = 13 x 1 =] 13 STUN from the normal attack.

 

A Foot shot will do [7 - 4 = 3 x 1/2 =] 1 BOD and [7 x 1 = 7 - 8 =] 0 STUN from a KA, or [6-8 = 0 x 1/2 =] 0 BOD and [21 - 8 = 13 x 1/2 =] 6 STUN from the normal attack.

 

The KA is definitely better at doing BOD damage, but the Normal attack has an edge on STUN damage under the current hit location chart. 

 

Drop KAs to a 1 - 3 range, and they will do much less STUN than normal attacks.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah its an inconsistency that never was addressed.  Personally I think the effectiveness of the hit location table actually demonstrates that the old d6-1 system actually wasn't as bad as it was portrayed, but that a single die roll gave such inconsistency that it was annoying.  Which is why we long ago dropped the d6-1 multiplier and went with a roll on the hit location table for the stun multiplier and some color.  3d6 gives you a curve and a smoother feeling result.

[Hugh Neilson]

That would smooth the edges a bit, but still leaves those x4 and x5 multiples as a lottery win in a Supers game.  14 x 4 = 56, which is tough to get on 12d6 normal - try rolling 70!

 

The KA will plink off quite a bit, but also stands a much better chance of punching enough damage through to stun the target, even using hit location probabilities.

[Duke Bushido]

As long as we're talking hit locations, has anyone else considered something along the lines of the Aces and Eights "shot clock" for called shots? 

[ScottishFox]

It's been awhile, but I think I crunched out a weighted grid for hit locations and the total average stun multiplier was around 2.7 - 2.8.

 

I really disliked this when I first saw the rule change (1d6-1 to 1d3), but after playing an extended campaign I came to like it better.

 

Sixth edition made small AoE armor-piercing attacks VERY cost effective.  The reduced stun multiplier (average 2 vs. 2.8 with hit locations) seems like a fair trade off.

 

I've found x3 to be the sweet spot for armored combat to have the right feel.

 

Ex:  Two knights in plate armor mauling each other with great swords.  Each has 8 rPD and 7 PD.

       Without hit locations they're going to average 7 BOD -> 0 and 14 STUN -> 0 per hit.  Which means they'll just hit each other until someone lands a lucky blow or someone runs out of endurance.

       With hit locations they're averaging 7 BOD -> 0 and ~ 21 STUN -> 6 per hit.  Belly and groin hits clock in at 13 STUN and the rare but deadly head shot nets a consciousness threatening 20 STUN.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

As long as we're talking hit locations, has anyone else considered something along the lines of the Aves and Eights "shot clock" for called shots? 

 

I have actually and gave it enough thought that I considered working up perspective images for various body types (dragon, squid monster, centaur, etc) just for the sake of having useful variants.  Then I realized it was going to be way too much work.  Like most of the Aces & Eights innovations and ideas, its really neat sounding but in practice is not very workable or too time consuming and complicated to actually play well.

[Hugh Neilson]

Aces and Eights did not have the variety of monster types as routine foes that a typical fantasy game has.