Hugh Neilson

This highlights an issue with Desolid. You basically get a variant of Tunnelling that ignores defenses (so Tunnelling NND, if you will) and leaves no hole behind you, plus invulnerability to many attack forms, with the limitation that you cannot interact with the solid world.
 
So why does the limitation on that tunnelling and and invulnerability increase the cost of your attacks, instead of reducing the limitation and increasing the cost of your Desolid?  Well, because we accept this simple compromise for game balance purposes.  Given that, simply setting a variant Desolid that removes both the attack immunity and the inability to interact with the solid world seems like a pretty practical approach.
 
We've already abandoned earlier editions' rules that you can fly and "swim" in desolid form, but can't run, leap or glide.
 
For 40 points, I am thinking you could get a decent "pass through walls" power constructed with Tunnelling, so 40 points for "Phase through solid objects but attacks still hurt you and you can still attack" does not seem unreasonable.

That's fine for experienced Hero Gamers.  Is it obvious to a new player or GM that this one 60 point attack power is massively unbalanced?

All good items - historically, these have not been presented so much as "campaign guidelines and dial settings" as extrapolated from sample characters - typically, characters whose expected usage (expected to go one on one against a single PC; expected to be a tough fight for a team of PCs,; etc.).  I've sometimes questioned whether those "back of 1e|" characters were intended to be reasonable solo villains (tougher than any one PC, but easily taken down by the team), with the expectation that PCs, at least starting PCs, would be more like those "wimpy" Geodesics.
 
As players, we built more towards going one on one against Shrinker, Pulsar, Dragonfly or Green Dragon.

All good items - historically, these have not been presented so much as "campaign guidelines and dial settings" as extrapolated from sample characters - typically, characters whose expected usage (expected to go one on one against a single PC; expected to be a tough fight for a team of PCs,; etc.).  I've sometimes questioned whether those "back of 1e|" characters were intended to be reasonable solo villains (tougher than any one PC, but easily taken down by the team), with the expectation that PCs, at least starting PCs, would be more like those "wimpy" Geodesics.
 
As players, we built more towards going one on one against Shrinker, Pulsar, Dragonfly or Green Dragon.

PURPLE!!!  Imagine increasing the hours in the day by almost 50%!!!

All good items - historically, these have not been presented so much as "campaign guidelines and dial settings" as extrapolated from sample characters - typically, characters whose expected usage (expected to go one on one against a single PC; expected to be a tough fight for a team of PCs,; etc.).  I've sometimes questioned whether those "back of 1e|" characters were intended to be reasonable solo villains (tougher than any one PC, but easily taken down by the team), with the expectation that PCs, at least starting PCs, would be more like those "wimpy" Geodesics.
 
As players, we built more towards going one on one against Shrinker, Pulsar, Dragonfly or Green Dragon.

I have to admit that, reading the initial posts of “what?  Instant acceleration?  Why, it would tear them apart”, I was envisioning a campaign Session Zero much like:


 
GM:  OK, tell us a bit about your characters. 


 
[Duke, of course, is so polite and unwilling to hog the spotlight that he waits for everyone else to go first.]


 
Player 1:  My character is the last survivor of an alien civilization.  He’s super-strong, super-fast and super-tough. And he can fly and shoot laser beams out of his eyes!


 
Players and GM Chorus: Super-cool!


 
Player 2: My character was altered in a strange accident, and can now become a being of living flames.  She can attack with the flames, they protect her from damage and they even make her lighter than air so she can fly.


 
Players and GM Chorus: Marvelous-cool!


 
Player 3: Hey, my character was changed in a strange accident too.  He was attending a science display when he was accidentally bitten by an irradiated, DNA-altered Bat!  He has all the powers of a bat – proportionate strength and speed, bat-sense and he built artificial wings that allow him to fly! Now he fights crime while attending high school, your Friendly Neighbourhood Bat-Man!


 
Players and GM Chorus: Double-homage-cool!


 
Player 4: My character is just a normal guy, but he was trained by an ancient cabal of wizards. He wears an array of mystical artifacts given to him by the ancient cabal, and can warp reality itself with his mighty spells and mystical knowledge.


 
Players and GM Chorus: Magic-cool!


 
Duke: My character can fly at incredible speeds, and is capable of imparting that speed to others at will, through direct or indirect physical combat.  [Awaits Speedy-cool response.]


 
Player 1: But what about the physics of high velocities?


 
Player 3: Wouldn’t that rapid acceleration tear someone apart?


 
GM: We’ll have to break out the physics textbooks to ensure that these abilities are treated with full realism and scientific accuracy – how else can we possibly pretend to believe a man can fly?

 
 
I am a big fan of starting any new game/system with its rules as written. Until I see how it plays, and integrates with all of the other rules, assessing the impact of some tweak is dicy at best.

I would say those ad hoc decisions are still decisions. When you or I set up a Supers game, we have likely already set many of the dials not recognizing that we have done so.  We know that:
 
 - Without Hit Locations
 
 - Standard Supers point totals (we might consider this one, depending on the game)
 
 - Equipment must be purchased with points, not cash (and looting fallen opponents won't allow you to keep their stuff)
 
 - Knockback; Knockdown is a limitation
 
Until some poor new player who tries to read the books asks questions that are so obvious that old-school Hero players don't even recognize that there IS a question.
 
If the entire group is new to Hero and starts with the 6e (or 5e, maybe 4e but it had Supers stuff in the back if you bought the big book - but that won't help for a different genre) and has to figure out all those dial settings, coming away believing that Hero is super-complicated is a pretty predictable result.  Even though most of those dials are pre-set as "Superheroic" and "Heroic"  for most of us.  A quick chart setting the dials in the genre summaries could have done a lot - and putting them near the start of V2 instead of at the end might help those newer to Hero focus their read of the rules based on the game they want to play.

I would say those ad hoc decisions are still decisions. When you or I set up a Supers game, we have likely already set many of the dials not recognizing that we have done so.  We know that:
 
 - Without Hit Locations
 
 - Standard Supers point totals (we might consider this one, depending on the game)
 
 - Equipment must be purchased with points, not cash (and looting fallen opponents won't allow you to keep their stuff)
 
 - Knockback; Knockdown is a limitation
 
Until some poor new player who tries to read the books asks questions that are so obvious that old-school Hero players don't even recognize that there IS a question.
 
If the entire group is new to Hero and starts with the 6e (or 5e, maybe 4e but it had Supers stuff in the back if you bought the big book - but that won't help for a different genre) and has to figure out all those dial settings, coming away believing that Hero is super-complicated is a pretty predictable result.  Even though most of those dials are pre-set as "Superheroic" and "Heroic"  for most of us.  A quick chart setting the dials in the genre summaries could have done a lot - and putting them near the start of V2 instead of at the end might help those newer to Hero focus their read of the rules based on the game they want to play.

I have to admit that, reading the initial posts of “what?  Instant acceleration?  Why, it would tear them apart”, I was envisioning a campaign Session Zero much like:


 
GM:  OK, tell us a bit about your characters. 


 
[Duke, of course, is so polite and unwilling to hog the spotlight that he waits for everyone else to go first.]


 
Player 1:  My character is the last survivor of an alien civilization.  He’s super-strong, super-fast and super-tough. And he can fly and shoot laser beams out of his eyes!


 
Players and GM Chorus: Super-cool!


 
Player 2: My character was altered in a strange accident, and can now become a being of living flames.  She can attack with the flames, they protect her from damage and they even make her lighter than air so she can fly.


 
Players and GM Chorus: Marvelous-cool!


 
Player 3: Hey, my character was changed in a strange accident too.  He was attending a science display when he was accidentally bitten by an irradiated, DNA-altered Bat!  He has all the powers of a bat – proportionate strength and speed, bat-sense and he built artificial wings that allow him to fly! Now he fights crime while attending high school, your Friendly Neighbourhood Bat-Man!


 
Players and GM Chorus: Double-homage-cool!


 
Player 4: My character is just a normal guy, but he was trained by an ancient cabal of wizards. He wears an array of mystical artifacts given to him by the ancient cabal, and can warp reality itself with his mighty spells and mystical knowledge.


 
Players and GM Chorus: Magic-cool!


 
Duke: My character can fly at incredible speeds, and is capable of imparting that speed to others at will, through direct or indirect physical combat.  [Awaits Speedy-cool response.]


 
Player 1: But what about the physics of high velocities?


 
Player 3: Wouldn’t that rapid acceleration tear someone apart?


 
GM: We’ll have to break out the physics textbooks to ensure that these abilities are treated with full realism and scientific accuracy – how else can we possibly pretend to believe a man can fly?

 
 
I am a big fan of starting any new game/system with its rules as written. Until I see how it plays, and integrates with all of the other rules, assessing the impact of some tweak is dicy at best.

I would say those ad hoc decisions are still decisions. When you or I set up a Supers game, we have likely already set many of the dials not recognizing that we have done so.  We know that:
 
 - Without Hit Locations
 
 - Standard Supers point totals (we might consider this one, depending on the game)
 
 - Equipment must be purchased with points, not cash (and looting fallen opponents won't allow you to keep their stuff)
 
 - Knockback; Knockdown is a limitation
 
Until some poor new player who tries to read the books asks questions that are so obvious that old-school Hero players don't even recognize that there IS a question.
 
If the entire group is new to Hero and starts with the 6e (or 5e, maybe 4e but it had Supers stuff in the back if you bought the big book - but that won't help for a different genre) and has to figure out all those dial settings, coming away believing that Hero is super-complicated is a pretty predictable result.  Even though most of those dials are pre-set as "Superheroic" and "Heroic"  for most of us.  A quick chart setting the dials in the genre summaries could have done a lot - and putting them near the start of V2 instead of at the end might help those newer to Hero focus their read of the rules based on the game they want to play.

I have to admit that, reading the initial posts of “what?  Instant acceleration?  Why, it would tear them apart”, I was envisioning a campaign Session Zero much like:


 
GM:  OK, tell us a bit about your characters. 


 
[Duke, of course, is so polite and unwilling to hog the spotlight that he waits for everyone else to go first.]


 
Player 1:  My character is the last survivor of an alien civilization.  He’s super-strong, super-fast and super-tough. And he can fly and shoot laser beams out of his eyes!


 
Players and GM Chorus: Super-cool!


 
Player 2: My character was altered in a strange accident, and can now become a being of living flames.  She can attack with the flames, they protect her from damage and they even make her lighter than air so she can fly.


 
Players and GM Chorus: Marvelous-cool!


 
Player 3: Hey, my character was changed in a strange accident too.  He was attending a science display when he was accidentally bitten by an irradiated, DNA-altered Bat!  He has all the powers of a bat – proportionate strength and speed, bat-sense and he built artificial wings that allow him to fly! Now he fights crime while attending high school, your Friendly Neighbourhood Bat-Man!


 
Players and GM Chorus: Double-homage-cool!


 
Player 4: My character is just a normal guy, but he was trained by an ancient cabal of wizards. He wears an array of mystical artifacts given to him by the ancient cabal, and can warp reality itself with his mighty spells and mystical knowledge.


 
Players and GM Chorus: Magic-cool!


 
Duke: My character can fly at incredible speeds, and is capable of imparting that speed to others at will, through direct or indirect physical combat.  [Awaits Speedy-cool response.]


 
Player 1: But what about the physics of high velocities?


 
Player 3: Wouldn’t that rapid acceleration tear someone apart?


 
GM: We’ll have to break out the physics textbooks to ensure that these abilities are treated with full realism and scientific accuracy – how else can we possibly pretend to believe a man can fly?

 
 
I am a big fan of starting any new game/system with its rules as written. Until I see how it plays, and integrates with all of the other rules, assessing the impact of some tweak is dicy at best.

Off the top of my head:
 
 - With Hit Locations or without?
 
 - What point totals?
 
 - Is equipment purchased with points or cash?
 
 - Knockback or Knockdown?
 
The system's dials have to be set for each game.

Agreed that the intimidating size of the core rules is a significant problem.  Not sure I agree with these interpretations of the cause.  The real problem, to me, is that the publishing and the sales pitch are backwards.
 
There was a fundamental shift from 3e ("Old Testament Hero" - OTH) to 4e (New Testament Hero" - NTH). OTH Hero used a common rules framework to build, write and publish games.  NTH published a common rules framework, with the building and publishing of games coming either next or, worse, never.  This required NTH to be all things to all people - all genres, all playstyles, all power levels.
 
Write and publish a game.  Maybe it's a Standard Supers Bronze Age game.  Perhaps it's a grim and gritty, realism-heavy post-apocalyptic low-power heroic game.  It can be a high-powered Supers Saturday Morning Cartoon game that has no BOD stat because no one ever dies.  But it has to be a GAME - a GM and some players can pick it up, read it and run the game.  Only those mechanics relevant to, and used in, the game are included. That full-blown rules system, complete with dial settings and alternate rules, is used to build the game.  If that game does well, maybe we publish some supplements.  Maybe we publish some variants (here's how you tweak that Supers game to an Iron Age, or a Golden Age, or a Silver Age game.  Or how you power it down to Street Level, or up to Cosmic; let's dial back the gritty realism and toss in bizarre mutations to that Post-Apocalypse game).  Those dial settings and optional rules appropriate to that variant of the original game get added in.
 
You can even publish the whole rule set for anyone wanting to design their own game, or their own variants to a published game, but that's an ancillary product for the tinkerers, not the core book(s) of the line, and the entry point for new players or GMs. Publish a stripped-down Basic version and an Advanced version.
 
I started in Champions 1e (not Hero - Champions - OTH). Duke never left Champions 2e. How many of us Hero Grognards started with 4e or above (NTH; system before game)?  For those who did, how many started in a group that had already learned Hero with an OTH game, and how many started with The NTH System and designed their own game?

Hugh, I used to live in Sudbury, Ontario. If you don't know what that means, look it up.
 
But on the related political front, when I was a kid, air and water pollution were huge worries. Many people, including serious experts, feared that we were making our environment toxic and unlivable. If circumstances didn't change, it would have become so. But they changed. We changed them. Same sort of fears for overpopulation, and for global nuclear annihilation. We changed. The changes weren't smooth, and not all were deliberate, and they often came at a high cost. But they came. We're still here.
 
That's why I don't despair whenever the fear of the day is raised. In my lifetime I've seen the human race beat the odds again and again. There are very serious issues, and they carry high risk, and it's frustrating to see many people stick their heads in the sand over them. But we've been there before. It's the one irrefutable argument for hope: We're still here.

Without diminishing Duke's points, one reason I see that a lot of players HATE CLOWN is the preponderance of "no, you don't get to run your character tonight - instead your character departs your control entirely to do something entirely silly and out of character" powers.  It's the worst of those Silver Age "Thugs robbing the art museum - why are Superman and Batman playing Twister instead of stopping them?" stories.  Could they possibly be used in better stories?  Undoubtedly, although with their abilities, it would take a lot of work.  Each one looks like a one-appearance villain in one of those "What is wrong with you so-called heroes?" stories, and we just slap them all together as a team because the heroes are a team.

I have to admit that, reading the initial posts of “what?  Instant acceleration?  Why, it would tear them apart”, I was envisioning a campaign Session Zero much like:


 
GM:  OK, tell us a bit about your characters. 


 
[Duke, of course, is so polite and unwilling to hog the spotlight that he waits for everyone else to go first.]


 
Player 1:  My character is the last survivor of an alien civilization.  He’s super-strong, super-fast and super-tough. And he can fly and shoot laser beams out of his eyes!


 
Players and GM Chorus: Super-cool!


 
Player 2: My character was altered in a strange accident, and can now become a being of living flames.  She can attack with the flames, they protect her from damage and they even make her lighter than air so she can fly.


 
Players and GM Chorus: Marvelous-cool!


 
Player 3: Hey, my character was changed in a strange accident too.  He was attending a science display when he was accidentally bitten by an irradiated, DNA-altered Bat!  He has all the powers of a bat – proportionate strength and speed, bat-sense and he built artificial wings that allow him to fly! Now he fights crime while attending high school, your Friendly Neighbourhood Bat-Man!


 
Players and GM Chorus: Double-homage-cool!


 
Player 4: My character is just a normal guy, but he was trained by an ancient cabal of wizards. He wears an array of mystical artifacts given to him by the ancient cabal, and can warp reality itself with his mighty spells and mystical knowledge.


 
Players and GM Chorus: Magic-cool!


 
Duke: My character can fly at incredible speeds, and is capable of imparting that speed to others at will, through direct or indirect physical combat.  [Awaits Speedy-cool response.]


 
Player 1: But what about the physics of high velocities?


 
Player 3: Wouldn’t that rapid acceleration tear someone apart?


 
GM: We’ll have to break out the physics textbooks to ensure that these abilities are treated with full realism and scientific accuracy – how else can we possibly pretend to believe a man can fly?

 
 
I am a big fan of starting any new game/system with its rules as written. Until I see how it plays, and integrates with all of the other rules, assessing the impact of some tweak is dicy at best.

Agreed that the intimidating size of the core rules is a significant problem.  Not sure I agree with these interpretations of the cause.  The real problem, to me, is that the publishing and the sales pitch are backwards.
 
There was a fundamental shift from 3e ("Old Testament Hero" - OTH) to 4e (New Testament Hero" - NTH). OTH Hero used a common rules framework to build, write and publish games.  NTH published a common rules framework, with the building and publishing of games coming either next or, worse, never.  This required NTH to be all things to all people - all genres, all playstyles, all power levels.
 
Write and publish a game.  Maybe it's a Standard Supers Bronze Age game.  Perhaps it's a grim and gritty, realism-heavy post-apocalyptic low-power heroic game.  It can be a high-powered Supers Saturday Morning Cartoon game that has no BOD stat because no one ever dies.  But it has to be a GAME - a GM and some players can pick it up, read it and run the game.  Only those mechanics relevant to, and used in, the game are included. That full-blown rules system, complete with dial settings and alternate rules, is used to build the game.  If that game does well, maybe we publish some supplements.  Maybe we publish some variants (here's how you tweak that Supers game to an Iron Age, or a Golden Age, or a Silver Age game.  Or how you power it down to Street Level, or up to Cosmic; let's dial back the gritty realism and toss in bizarre mutations to that Post-Apocalypse game).  Those dial settings and optional rules appropriate to that variant of the original game get added in.
 
You can even publish the whole rule set for anyone wanting to design their own game, or their own variants to a published game, but that's an ancillary product for the tinkerers, not the core book(s) of the line, and the entry point for new players or GMs. Publish a stripped-down Basic version and an Advanced version.
 
I started in Champions 1e (not Hero - Champions - OTH). Duke never left Champions 2e. How many of us Hero Grognards started with 4e or above (NTH; system before game)?  For those who did, how many started in a group that had already learned Hero with an OTH game, and how many started with The NTH System and designed their own game?

Agreed that the intimidating size of the core rules is a significant problem.  Not sure I agree with these interpretations of the cause.  The real problem, to me, is that the publishing and the sales pitch are backwards.
 
There was a fundamental shift from 3e ("Old Testament Hero" - OTH) to 4e (New Testament Hero" - NTH). OTH Hero used a common rules framework to build, write and publish games.  NTH published a common rules framework, with the building and publishing of games coming either next or, worse, never.  This required NTH to be all things to all people - all genres, all playstyles, all power levels.
 
Write and publish a game.  Maybe it's a Standard Supers Bronze Age game.  Perhaps it's a grim and gritty, realism-heavy post-apocalyptic low-power heroic game.  It can be a high-powered Supers Saturday Morning Cartoon game that has no BOD stat because no one ever dies.  But it has to be a GAME - a GM and some players can pick it up, read it and run the game.  Only those mechanics relevant to, and used in, the game are included. That full-blown rules system, complete with dial settings and alternate rules, is used to build the game.  If that game does well, maybe we publish some supplements.  Maybe we publish some variants (here's how you tweak that Supers game to an Iron Age, or a Golden Age, or a Silver Age game.  Or how you power it down to Street Level, or up to Cosmic; let's dial back the gritty realism and toss in bizarre mutations to that Post-Apocalypse game).  Those dial settings and optional rules appropriate to that variant of the original game get added in.
 
You can even publish the whole rule set for anyone wanting to design their own game, or their own variants to a published game, but that's an ancillary product for the tinkerers, not the core book(s) of the line, and the entry point for new players or GMs. Publish a stripped-down Basic version and an Advanced version.
 
I started in Champions 1e (not Hero - Champions - OTH). Duke never left Champions 2e. How many of us Hero Grognards started with 4e or above (NTH; system before game)?  For those who did, how many started in a group that had already learned Hero with an OTH game, and how many started with The NTH System and designed their own game?

There's a lot of "well, scientifically and realistically, it should do damage" above.  There are no rules that say that the acceleration does damage. Not when you Grab-By at 150 MPH and move with the target for the rest of your move.  Not when you Grab something you can't move (but then it doesn't move with you), although I believe here are velocity-type damage adders either ruled or suggested to break the object free).
 
Quicksilver or the Flash don't fly but the concept is similar when, suddenly, the dozen or so normals who were hostages inside with the villains are standing outside with the heroes.  They're typically dazed and confused, but not injured.  Of course, damage from such a move could easily be the SFX of a Move By or Move Through.
 
I think there's an advantage for Flight that allows instant acceleration, although I have found few games where the acceleration and deceleration rules are rigorously enforced.  Turn Mode gets a bit more attention, and I believe there was also an advantage for  removing that.

There's a lot of "well, scientifically and realistically, it should do damage" above.  There are no rules that say that the acceleration does damage. Not when you Grab-By at 150 MPH and move with the target for the rest of your move.  Not when you Grab something you can't move (but then it doesn't move with you), although I believe here are velocity-type damage adders either ruled or suggested to break the object free).
 
Quicksilver or the Flash don't fly but the concept is similar when, suddenly, the dozen or so normals who were hostages inside with the villains are standing outside with the heroes.  They're typically dazed and confused, but not injured.  Of course, damage from such a move could easily be the SFX of a Move By or Move Through.
 
I think there's an advantage for Flight that allows instant acceleration, although I have found few games where the acceleration and deceleration rules are rigorously enforced.  Turn Mode gets a bit more attention, and I believe there was also an advantage for  removing that.

How did the Disadvantage cause them any actual disadvantage?  Why couldn't a Mutant take a Disadvantage for "non-Mutant powers cost double"? Let's give Solitaire 20 points for "technology-based powers cost double" and Seeker can get 20 points for "powers not based on being a highly trained athletic normal" cost double".  Obsidian can pay double for powers that don't come from being an alien.

How did the Disadvantage cause them any actual disadvantage?  Why couldn't a Mutant take a Disadvantage for "non-Mutant powers cost double"? Let's give Solitaire 20 points for "technology-based powers cost double" and Seeker can get 20 points for "powers not based on being a highly trained athletic normal" cost double".  Obsidian can pay double for powers that don't come from being an alien.

Why doesn't Obsidian get a disadvantage for "pays double for mental powers"?  Defender IS "getting away with something" as he avoids 20 points worth of complications.  "I pay extra for things I am not buying anyway" is not a disadvantage,

All the Champions, IIRC, were new for 4e. Much of the IP did not move to DoJ, so many characters referred to in prior editions weren't available to write up as example characters.  Defender is a powered armor character.  1e/2e used Crusader and Starburst as detailed character creation examples, IIRC.