5th Edition vs 6th Edition

[tcabril]

I have a rather open ended question - discussion is welcome!

 

I recently ordered 5th edtion Hero System from the Hero Games online store - short money!!! The reason I did this was to map the changes between 5th and 6th edition so as to get better use out of my other online store purchase: Dark Champions and Pulp Hero (both are very awesome I have to say!).

 

Besides CP expenditures for character creation and some changes in point costs for various things - are there any other significant changes?

 

Do you who have been playing Hero System for awhile think this was a good approach on my part?

 

Incidently - 5th editon is a very solid game system in its own right!

 

Todd

[Escafarc]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

Other than character creation the game is still pretty much the same in all six versions.

[tcabril]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

Thanks!

I know that mechanically (how things work) is pretty much the same but I was thinking more of the special talents and skills that exist in Dark Champions and Pulp Hero - do I need to convert them or take them as read?

Additonally the character creation CP allotment is greatly increased from 5th to 6th and I am not sure how that would affect things.

 

Thanks again!

Todd

[Lucius]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

The point allotment changes are partly because a character will have to spend more now on Characteristics that in previous editions came "free." So a character in 5th editition with a CON of 15, had 30 END automatically; now, they have to pay for the extra END if they want it.

 

There is at least one significant difference in play; the way Killing Attacks work was nerfed. In 5th edition Killing Attacks were better than Normal Attacks but cost the same. The new regime cut the Stun Multiplier.

 

The Skills you can probably "take as read" but you may want to consider converting Talents. How they work may not have changed but the point totals might.

 

If you have Hero Designer, it's set up to work with both editions I believe.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

First Edition Palindromedary

[tcabril]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

I have an Apple Mac Book Pro - does Hero Designer work with Apple? Just wondering....

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

Yes. Hero Designer is a Java app, and will work on any platform that supports Java 6 (which Mac OS X does).

[Christopher]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

I have a rather open ended question - discussion is welcome!

 

I recently ordered 5th edtion Hero System from the Hero Games online store - short money!!! The reason I did this was to map the changes between 5th and 6th edition so as to get better use out of my other online store purchase: Dark Champions and Pulp Hero (both are very awesome I have to say!).

 

Besides CP expenditures for character creation and some changes in point costs for various things - are there any other significant changes?

 

Do you who have been playing Hero System for awhile think this was a good approach on my part?

 

Incidently - 5th editon is a very solid game system in its own right!

 

Todd

Warning: This thred will propably drift off in less than 30 post from here. And will go on for at least 50 more after that. That is what always happens when somebody writes 5th edition and 6th Edition in the same OP, yet allone the Title.

After this is out of the way:

 

The more important differences have been noted.

There are no more figured Characteristics, hence more points go there.

Skill are pretty much the same (Seductions is now Charm).

Some Skill Prices have been changed, with effects on things like the Off-Hand Talent.

Some powers have been reworked (Force Field is now a special form of Resistance Defenses, Force Wall and the Barrier effects of Entangle now a Special Chase of Barrier).

Some other powers have been repriced and reworked (Growth, Density Increase) with propably far reaching consequences for Frameworks including them.

Elemental Controlls have been thrown out. VPP has mostly replaced them.

 

Note that unless you have the Hero Designer, converting/wirting up Villains is going to be a lot of work. But even that tool does not allow Auto-Conversion between editions.

[assault]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

The change to characteristics can be particularly important to characteristic heavy characters. For example, the extra points won't cover the cost of the CV stats for characters like Champions speedsters and martial artists.

 

In short, some characters will definitely lose out when moving from 5th to 6th.

 

The changes to Killing Attack are interesting. Aside from the reduction of the Stun Modifier, non-resistant defences work against the Stun from KAs as a default, whether or not the character has resistant defences. I'm not quite sure what the impact of this would be, but I'm planning on experimenting with "non-powered" superheroic characters that don't bother with much or even any resistant defences. As long as they can avoid being hit more than once....

[Christopher]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

The change to characteristics can be particularly important to characteristic heavy characters. For example, the extra points won't cover the cost of the CV stats for characters like Champions speedsters and martial artists.

 

In short, some characters will definitely lose out when moving from 5th to 6th.

 

The changes to Killing Attack are interesting. Aside from the reduction of the Stun Modifier, non-resistant defences work against the Stun from KAs as a default, whether or not the character has resistant defences. I'm not quite sure what the impact of this would be, but I'm planning on experimenting with "non-powered" superheroic characters that don't bother with much or even any resistant defences. As long as they can avoid being hit more than once....

Main difference is, that KA are now much more likely to do Body and less likely to do stun. This is most obvious when you compare the averages of either damage type and keep in mind that the guidelines tell you that about 75% of a supers defenses should be resistant.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

Note that unless you have the Hero Designer, converting/wirting up Villains is going to be a lot of work. But even that tool does not allow Auto-Conversion between editions.

Really it depends on if you care about knowing a villain's total point cost. You can just keep the values the same, rounding up to the nearest 5 in case of END and 2 in case of STUN and be fine in play. You may need to fiddle with a villain's stats anyways to make him a better opponent for you group (upping or lowering CVs for example), but that's the case regardless of edition.

 

Elemental Controls were removed and replaced with the limitation Unified Power. If you're favorable to this, you can get the elemental control feel without having to mess around carefully balancing AP values. If you're not, it's a "free" -1/4 limitation on your multipower.

 

Suppress and Succors were changed heavily/effectively removed. They no longer are lower AP versions of drain/aid that were constant. They are just drain/aid with Cost END now. Actually that's a general trend in 6th edition, removing the lower AP versions of powers that cost END. For example, Force Field is pretty much just Resistant Defense Costs END. How much that matters depends on how much your group used those sorts of powers. The guy who aborted to his 60PD (or 60ED) force field in his multipower loses a lot, but many other characters do not really notice.

 

Killing attacks were nerfed to having a x1-3 stun multiple at no reduction in cost. However if you're running Pulp Hero or Dark Champions, then you were likely using Hit Locations and those were unaffected by the change. Our group just uses hit locations for all games so we weren't that affected by this change.

 

However, the big one is how figured characteristics and pseudo-figured characteristics like OCV/DCV. Personally, I'm for their removal, but many disagree.

[assault]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

Main difference is' date=' that KA are now much more likely to do Body and less likely to do stun. This is most obvious when you compare the averages of either damage type and keep in mind that the guidelines tell you that about 75% of a supers defenses should be resistant.[/quote']

 

Sorry, I missed this part. Why are they "much more likely to do Body", assuming comparable levels of resistant defences between editions? The "less likely to do stun" part is obvious.

[RexMundi]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

I've noticed that the single biggest stumbling block for a lot of folks coming over from 4th or 5th is that they try and build the 6th Ed PC the same way they would build a 4th/5th with the same amount of points. They miss the scale, and seem to have an issue adapting to the new scale. To me it was simple but then I work with plans and scale all the time so adjustment is natural.... Just got to keep :This is a Starting HERO: in mind, as opposed to "I got 400 Points Now but I'm not getting what a 400 point PC would be in the old rules....."

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

Sorry' date=' I missed this part. Why are they "much more likely to do Body", assuming comparable levels of resistant defences between editions? The "less likely to do stun" part is obvious.[/quote']

Isn't that obvious?

 

Let's asume 12 DC attacks vs. 24 Defense, 12 of wich is resistant (2 def per DC is a decent Superheroci value; 50% resistant is the usual value for heroic, where KA's are more common/viable):

12d6 Blast: 12 Body, 42 STUN; 0 BODY, 18 STUN after defenses. Zero chance to deal body even on maximum damage hit.

4d6 KA: 14 Body, 28 STUN on average. With most of the defenses not counting agaisnt the Body; 2 Body, 4 STUN after defenses. 12 Body on maximum damage hit (with stun being equal to maximum damage Blast).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

Main difference is' date=' that KA are now much more likely to do Body and less likely to do stun. This is most obvious when you compare the averages of either damage type and keep in mind that the guidelines tell you that about 75% of a supers defenses should be resistant.[/quote']

 

Isn't that obvious?

 

Let's asume 12 DC attacks vs. 24 Defense, 12 of wich is resistant (2 def per DC is a decent Superheroci value; 50% resistant is the usual value for heroic, where KA's are more common/viable):

12d6 Blast: 12 Body, 42 STUN; 0 BODY, 18 STUN after defenses. Zero chance to deal body even on maximum damage hit.

4d6 KA: 14 Body, 28 STUN on average. With most of the defenses not counting agaisnt the Body; 2 Body, 4 STUN after defenses. 12 Body on maximum damage hit (with stun being equal to maximum damage Blast).

 

I don't think it is obvious. I think most readers took your first post to mean "killing attacks in 6th Ed are much more likely to do BOD than they were in 5th Ed, but much less likely to do STUN than in 5th Ed" where I believe you meant "In 6th Ed, killing attacks are much more likely to do BOD than a normal attack is, but much less likely to do STUN", which is most certainly the 6e result.

 

I was initially opposed to the reduced stun multiple because I felt it nerfed the KA in Supers games. However, on reflection, I have come to support the reduced stun multiple BECAUSE it nerfed the KA in Supers games. To expand:

 

- in 5e, the KA was an excellent means of getting some STUN through against a high defense opponent, or to get enough STUN through to STUN the opponent, by playing the Stun Lotto. In 6e, this is no longer the case. It is not as effective at delivering STUN as a normal attack is. It is now truly a KILLING attack, designed to cause lethal damage, not to KO the target. As such:

 

- killing attacks fit poorly in a four colour Supers game, where death is uncommon, It is perfectly appropriate that it is marginalized to a niche power in such games, and de-motivated.

 

- killing attacks work just fine in Heroic games using hit locations - they have not changed a bit. But the balance issue was not there in such games - normal attacks also get a boost from hit locations, defense levels are such that KA's can be effective - they will kill - and such games typically do anticipate higher lethality.

 

The fact that a killing attack is only effective at killing, and thus is not a good choice in a non-lethal game, seems perfectly logical if looked at objectively. It is only 5 prior editions of Hero that have coded us to believe a KA should be an effective knockout attack.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

One change that may be relevant is the removal of damage caps, although they are then largely suggested to be added back in. The Deadly Blow type talents were modified in 6e as a consequence to add damage using a Skill Levels build, rather than a "+X DC's" build.

[assault]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

I don't think it is obvious. I think most readers took your first post to mean "killing attacks in 6th Ed are much more likely to do BOD than they were in 5th Ed' date=' but much less likely to do STUN than in 5th Ed" where I believe you meant "In 6th Ed, killing attacks are much more likely to do BOD than a normal attack is, but much less likely to do STUN", which is most certainly the 6e result.[/quote']

 

Yes. I read it the first way.

 

KAs are no more likely to do BODY in 6e than they were in 5e.

 

They are more likely to do BODY than normal attacks, but that has always been the case.

 

The fact that normal defences now work against the STUN from KAs means that resistant defences are less essential than in 5e and before. Still a good idea, but not strictly essential for characters that mainly rely on not being hit.

 

In 5e and before, the lack of any defences that applied against the STUN of a KA was likely to be disastrous.

 

In any edition, the lack of any defences that apply against the BODY of a KA means that it's wise to run away after taking the first hit, in case you don't survive the second one. Obviously, that assumes you survive the first, but that's just a matter of buying up your BODY.

[Beast]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

for me having non resistant def and a d3 stun multiplier really nerfs Killing attacks

I'd been happy with 1 or the other,not both

 

The change to characteristics can be particularly important to characteristic heavy characters. For example, the extra points won't cover the cost of the CV stats for characters like Champions speedsters and martial artists.

 

In short, some characters will definitely lose out when moving from 5th to 6th.

 

The changes to Killing Attack are interesting. Aside from the reduction of the Stun Modifier, non-resistant defences work against the Stun from KAs as a default, whether or not the character has resistant defences. I'm not quite sure what the impact of this would be, but I'm planning on experimenting with "non-powered" superheroic characters that don't bother with much or even any resistant defences. As long as they can avoid being hit more than once....

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

I like how the de-emphasis on resistant defenses worked to eliminate the instant knockout aspect and make characters like Martial Artists and Speedsters more combat-viable. Reducing the stun multiple on top of that struck me as overkill (ironic given the subject, no?). But as others have said, hit locations counteract this and tend to be used in Fantasy and Pulp games where lethality is a much bigger convention of the genre to begin with.

 

Overall I like 6th edition better than 5th. There are a few things that can be a bit of a pain (i.e. Damage Negation calculations and some of the changes to Adjustment Powers), but for most topics I think the new version is an improvement.

[RexMundi]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

Reducing the Stun Multiple is fine when you look at the Costs of all the other Advantages (Take, Armor Piercing for example) that can stack on to it. Again, as I have been noticing since I've starting paying more attention, most of the problems seem to arise from being stuck in Previous Edition Mode, still thinking in 4th or 5th when 6th actually works on a different scale of game play. Folks are thinking in terms of raw numbers instead of what those numbers actually Equate too in the system. Sorta the same line of thinking folks get about Aquaman being weak before he one arms a polar bear at you with casual strength and does knockback to a group of braced people before beating up the survivors WITH their Submarine....

 

~Rex

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

for me having non resistant def and a d3 stun multiplier really nerfs Killing attacks

I'd been happy with 1 or the other,not both

 

Nonresistant defenses have always applied against the Stun damage of a KA as long as you had at least 1 rDEF, which in my experience resulted in there being no PC's, and very few combat threat NPC's, who had no rDEF. In that environment, the change to allow nonresistant defenses to apply to the STUN was a non-issue.

 

I think the 1d3 multiple nerfs the KA in games where high rDEF is the norm. Those are games where killing attacks should, frankly, be rare and largely ineffective.

 

I think the objections stem mainly from "prior edition thinking". In prior editions, the killing attack was a viable main attack in a Supers game, and against high defense opponents was the attack of choice. If the opponent has, say, 40 defenses, an average 12d6 normal attack slipped 2 STUN through. An average 4d6 Killing Attack roll would be 14 BOD, and the possible STUN was 14, 14, 28, 42, 56, 70. STUN past defenses would be 0, 0, 0, 2, 16, 30 for an average of 8 - 4 times that of the normal attack - and a shot at Stunning the villain if you got a 5 stun multiple.

 

If, instead, we read 6e in isolation, with no preconceived notions of the effectiveness of a killing attack, I suggest we would see this as a niche power, useful against automatons, barriers, entangles and other situations where only BOD damage matters, but unsuitable as one's primary attack in a high rDEF Supers game, where BOD damage would be rare. And rightly so, as lethality is low in such games.

 

I'm quite happy to replace that 5e 4d6 KA with a 6e 9 1/2d6 AP attack. AP is now actually viable, since the impact of an opponent with hardened defenses is now "power is considerably less effective" rather than "ha ha you are useless". Now, it is the KA which can be relegated to the Swiss Army Multipower, to be hauled out when BOD damage is important, rather than that seemingly obligatory AP attack which got hauled out...well... pretty much never for fear the opponent's defenses would be hardened.

[Lucius]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

Okay, someone bring me up to speed - what changed in the new edition about Armor Piercing and Hardened?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Viable Palindromedary

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

Armor Piercing became a +1/4 advantage, so 60 AP allows 9 1/2d6, instead of 8d6.

[Christopher]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

Also hardened no longer applies against Penetrating. For this, there is an extra Advantage "Impenetrable" wich costs an equal amount (also +1/2 advantage).

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

What we got (re: KA's and Stun) was pretty much the only solution that didn't involve mathematics impossible in our universe except at sufficiently high temperature and pressure. It's not for nothing that ghost-angel's tagline is "Bloody KA's".

[bigdamnhero]

Re: 5th Edition vs 6th Edition

 

Really it depends on if you care about knowing a villain's total point cost.

Exactly. I've used plenty of 5ed villain NPC write-ups in 6ed games without modification. As a GM, I barely noticed - the players never did.