Need some 5e rules help

[Duke Bushido]

Short version:

 

Friend of an acquaintance picked up 5e in a used book store in the 'Boro earlier this year.  For about 4 months or so, he has been running a Champions game.  So this:

 

Newish GM (has been running some Fate thing for about a year prior to this) and newish players (one from the Fate group, three others new for this game).

 

I have been invited to try playing with them.  Given the experience differences, I am very concerned about overwhelming the game or accidentally being "that guy".  To avoid that, I hava come up with a xoncept- powers and personality- that suits itself more to a support role than to a take-charge type or a quick-to-action type.

 

However, I didn't do much with 5e, as -  well, let's not go off on a tangent and just say that i didn't like it and never adopted it.

 

I will spare you all the details of concept and build, but ultimately, the build I have in mind (which the GM has tentatively approved, pending review of a submitted sheet) to represent his power all boils down to what happens when you are moving very, very fast and you grab something.  Does the grabbes thing take move by damage?  Do you just grab it?

 

I personally (2e player, even to this day) have ruled both ways, but _situationally_, as befit the story, genre, and situation at hand, but I have been "cautioned" that as this still fairly new to him, the GM is pretty tied to the letter of the rules, at least for right now.  

 

I know that 1e-4e have no hard rules about this, making it GM country, but I do _not_ remember if 5e does or does not.  I have askes the GM for his opinion, which was met with "I will have to check the rukes and get back to you."

 

I have skimmed through both 5 and 5er, and haven't seen anything specific, but as I said: I _skimmed_ them.  I was hoping that some of you who did (or even still do, though I havent seen her about in months) might know for certain if there are specific rules.  The 2 players I have talkes to have both said he has so far been pretty open to anything not specifically covered in the rules, but will stick to the absolute letter of ant law that even seems like it _might_ be relevant.

I would rather not waste the very limited free time I have fleshing out and getting attached to a concept if I know ahead of time it won't fly by 5e RAW.

 

 

Thanks to any and all who can offer references or confirmation.  Again, this isn't me shopping for opinions on how to make a call; this is me neesing to know what, if any, specific 5e rules apply to a high-speed grab.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

As far as I know, the grabber is just grabbed. If you wanted the the thing to take damage then that’s a separate attack. Let’s look at Disarm. I can disarm you by smacking your hand so hand that you lose the weapon yet mechanically I don’t do either Stun or Body damage to you. I wonder if the GM will allow your velocity to be converted to Grab Strength. 

[Doc Democracy]

Yeah, I agree with @Ninja-Bear.

 

I would say that, RAW, the grabbed person is grabbed and now moving at the speed of the grabber.  There would be all kinds of issues should the grabbed object exceed the ability of the grabber to lift which I do not think are covered in the rules except to say that both characters might take move-by damage and the "strength" of the attack might be used as casual strength to immediately break the grab.  It is all very situational and so many things can change what happens in this kind of thing.

 

I am not sure whether the purpose of the manoeuvre is to do damage or just to grab?

 

Doc

[GDShore]

This is a heavily situational dependent question. Is the object you are trying to grab attached to something, level 1 not attached = no damage, level 2 light attachment (held down with scotch tape) little to no damage, level 3 medium attachment (held down by screws or such like) up to 50% move by damage, level 4 strong attachment (held down by ropes , chains, bolts and the like) up to 100% move by damage. Extreme attachment.... ? . in game terms , 

          You are the speedster and will attempt to grab a weapon from the grip of, Charlie Milquetoast - level 1/2, the Bruiser (gangland enforcer/body builder) str. 15 - 18 level 3, and finally Super Brick str. 50+ level 4. 

          Now as for grabbing a being, dependent again, if the "grabbe" (the grabber is the person doing the grabbing) is willing or unresisting level 1, (Charlie) if unwilling or resisting level 3 (Bruiser) actively resisting or surprisingly dense (Super Brick who gains his str. thru multiple density increase and weighs 5 tonne level 4 maybe level 5. [ potential great cartoon moment as the Speedster rips his arms off trying to grab and carry off the S.B.]{or dislocates, wrenches, sprains ect. ect.}

[Duke Bushido]

Thanks folks, and I appreciate that there are shades to everything, etc, but specifically, given the situatiin I am in, I am,wondering as to whether 5e (any version) has rules to cover this. 

 

The power:

 

Flying speedster who has the ability to "share" his flight with anyone or anything he is touching.  As I want them to instantly be at his velocity and direction, and because I want it to apply to more than just kiving breathing characters, Flight: UAO didn't fit the bill.

 

I got to thinking about the idea of grabbing someone at 100mph and- already knowing that there were no rules for damage to the target in 1e through 4e, and knowing that Steve wrote 5e, I figured I had better check to see if there were rules in there about something that had always been a case-by-case judgment call (looking at you, Growth Momentum).

 

The idea is that his power allows them to instantly be travelling with him, at his speed, etc, with his power protecting them from the normal "Oh God!  My arm!  My arm!" That would happen in the real world (and in the xomics world, sepensing on the level of realism you want for the game-  which is why I always assumed grabbing damage was a case-by-case GM call).

 

I am not the GM for this game; the GM admits candidly for sticking as xlose as possible to the written rules until he becomes more comfortable with the system, etc, so I was hoping someone could tell me if there _are_ specific rules, and where to find them.

 

At any rate, assuming there are no specific rules, then rather than Flight UAO, Telekinesis: must be. Flying, must be touching allows for the effect I am looking for, including (pending 5e rules of which I am currently attempting to cure my ignorance) the "power protects target from grab and instant acceleration damage."

 

"Get the hostages out!"

 

"On it!"  And a quick race around the playing field, and a line of ten people are zooming away to safety.

 

Or, with TK as opposed to Flight:

 

That bus is teetering precariously off the bridge!  This kids are in danger!"

 

Fly by, touch the bus (I figure the GM should have problem treating this as a Grab, aince that makes it mechanically more difficult than just touching), and fly the entire bus to safety.

 

It keeps more as a BA kgrouns character than a combatant (depensing on whete they want me to drop the bus) and the TK will be limited further to ensure he cant accidentally step on the toes od whoever is playing the brick.

 

So:

 

Does 5e _mandate_ or even suggest  damage to a person or thing that I "grab" when travelling at high speed?

 

 

[Sketchpad]

I would say it's situational and a clear discussion of options to be had with the GM. In my case, I would probably allow a "I'm going to grab the guy at 30m speed and let him go into a building" as a damaging effect. Or I may rule that flying by and grabbing a target's arm may give you ONLY the target's arm (depending on how much Move By damage occurred). Could you do a fly by and just scoop someone up with no damage? Sure, so long as that's the style of the game. For example, playing in a four-color comic style game, you fly by and snag the crook to whisk off to jail. In a gritty, deconstructive game, you fly through the crook, splattering him around the area like  a Pollock painting. Ultimately, as you know, it comes down to how you and the GM want to portray the character, and how the GM uses the rules around the concept.

[LoneWolf]

I don’t know that any edition has rules stating that when you grab something it automatically has to do damage.   In 6th edition the book states that you can grab an enemy just to hold on to him and prevent them from doing anything.  If you want to hurt the person you grabbed you can squeeze, slam or throw them doing normal damage.  When you throw the character after a normal grab you do not add velocity damage like you do on a marital throw.   The 5th edition book does not specifically state you don’t have to damage your target but uses the word can.  That seems to indicate damage is optional.

 

There is a Grab By maneuver that basically combines a grab with a move by, but that is usually for grabbing things from people as you move past them. 

 

I think that if you want to you could damage the target by doing a grab and slam, but do not have to.  You might want to purchase a flying grab for this character.   

 

The fact you are moving at a high velocity should not matter.  
 

Edited September 6, 2023 by LoneWolf

[Ninja-Bear]

@Duke Bushido, another way to look at it is that if a Flyer is going 200 mph and grabs something, he doesn’t get hurt. And I swear in one of the later editions there is a comment where you are protected for free effects of your power, such as I shoot lasers from my eyes, my eyes don’t burn. Or I run super fast and friction doesn’t burn me either. So I would see this as an extension of Flight UBO. Unless you take a limitation that is. 😉

[Gauntlet]

And a lot of it is the same as you would see in a movie. Technically if Lois is falling from an 80-story building and Superman catches her five feet before she hits the ground, still every bone in her body would be broken even though she didn't hit the pavement. This is because of the sudden stop in speed from her fall. She is going from approximately 150 MPH to 0 in less than a second. But in a movie, or a roleplaying game, you have the heroic equation. This means that Superman can somehow stop her while stopping any internal reactions in her as well, which means no damage to her.

 

The same would go for the Flash grabbing anything when running at his incredible speed. Normally if he were to grab that gun from the bad guy he would be tearing the man's entire hand off as well as crushing the gun. But due to the heroic equation he is able to just suddenly remove the weapon with no damage to the one holding it.

[Grailknight]

You can use grab. If you're really worried buy some of your defenses with Protects Carried Object.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I would tend to have some damage done as a gut level thing (delta vee and all that) but the rules don't say anything about it, and seem actually to say the opposite -- although the falling rules do mention that you might harm someone by catching them as described by Gauntlet.  Its going to matter a lot what the tone and style of the campaign is.  Its probably not appropriate in a four color style game to have that kind of thing matter, but it should probably apply in a more gritty and realistic sort of campaign.  The difference between silver age Superman and Spider-Man catching Gwen Stacy.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[Chris Goodwin]

6 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Does 5e _mandate_ or even suggest  damage to a person or thing that I "grab" when travelling at high speed?

 

I'm fairly certain that neither 5e nor 5er have any such rule. 

 

If there were such a rule, it would be in The Ultimate Speedster.  I haven't pored through that book to find one yet.

[Duke Bushido]

I hadnt considered looking there; thank you, Sir!

 

So far as I know, the GM has only the one book, but still: it is importsnt to me to be as honest with him as I can, and to respect his boundaries.  I shall have a look at it, but likely tomorrow. 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

There's a lot of "well, scientifically and realistically, it should do damage" above.  There are no rules that say that the acceleration does damage. Not when you Grab-By at 150 MPH and move with the target for the rest of your move.  Not when you Grab something you can't move (but then it doesn't move with you), although I believe here are velocity-type damage adders either ruled or suggested to break the object free).

 

Quicksilver or the Flash don't fly but the concept is similar when, suddenly, the dozen or so normals who were hostages inside with the villains are standing outside with the heroes.  They're typically dazed and confused, but not injured.  Of course, damage from such a move could easily be the SFX of a Move By or Move Through.

 

I think there's an advantage for Flight that allows instant acceleration, although I have found few games where the acceleration and deceleration rules are rigorously enforced.  Turn Mode gets a bit more attention, and I believe there was also an advantage for  removing that.

[LoneWolf]

The one thing to consider on a normal grab is that it will end the characters move.  Maneuvers without the FMOVE element take place at the end of your turn.  You can perform a half move before using the maneuver, but after you make the attack roll your turn ends.   This makes it difficult to run in and rescue the hostages as you end your turn next to where they are.   The solution to this is to buy a few martial maneuvers with the FMOVE element.   In this case a flying grab would be what you want.   Most of the time a speedster will end up with a martial art with most of the maneuvers with the FMOVE element.   

 

It also depends on exactly what you want to do.  If all you want to do is to be able to grab one or two people and get them to safety a flying grab with good movement and enough STR to carry the targets should be enough.   If you are looking at getting more people out, then you might need to build it differently. Moving the bus for example is not going to work unless the character actually has enough STR to move the bus. Without further details on what you want to accomplish and how the power works it is difficult to give anymore advice.  
 

[Duke Bushido]

Telekinesis STR 50, only when flying, must be touching.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I think there's an advantage for Flight that allows instant acceleration, although I have found few games where the acceleration and deceleration rules are rigorously enforced

 

They are a bit of a pain, and I think the only time they come up is if someone is abusing the system, and the GM wants to pull back a bit on the reins.  Certainly +1 to instantly accelerate or stop feels like a bit of an excessive cost.  I can go twice as fast... or get going in a hurry?

[Gauntlet]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

They are a bit of a pain, and I think the only time they come up is if someone is abusing the system, and the GM wants to pull back a bit on the reins.  Certainly +1 to instantly accelerate or stop feels like a bit of an excessive cost.  I can go twice as fast... or get going in a hurry?

 

But the acceleration only really comes into play when going non-combat speeds, and considering when at non-combat speed the character has a 0 OCV they probably won't be grabbing anyone.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Given the way the comics portray things, it should be a limitation to not be able to instantly accelerate to full speed.  How many characters in the media have to work their way up to speed?

[Doc Democracy]

4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Telekinesis STR 50, only when flying, must be touching.

 

 

 

Doesn't feel right.

 

So, when that happens to me, I look at what I am trying to do in words.  I might be wrong, so forgive that, the principle still works.

 

I want to be able to selectively move a bunch of people, or objects, from one place to somewhere else before anyone can react.

 

Is that it?

 

Because, now I have written it down, it looks like an area effect, usable as an attack, teleport to me.  You move people, selectively, from an area to where you are.  Limitations: You need to be able to lift them; They need to be within a full move; It is restrainable (if someone grabs you, etc); You must move through the intervening space.  Everyone you teleport ends up next to you.

 

The SFX, you run in, grab everyone, and bring them out.  No questions about damage or anything else.

 

Doc

[Sketchpad]

Does it really need to be built as a power/ability? I've always leaned into the genre conventions of a game over having to build every little piece. I can only imagine what someone like Superman would look like if every one of his tricks were statted out. Maybe look at making a custom maneuver over a power?

[Doc Democracy]

36 minutes ago, Sketchpad said:

Does it really need to be built as a power/ability? I've always leaned into the genre conventions of a game over having to build every little piece. I can only imagine what someone like Superman would look like if every one of his tricks were statted out. Maybe look at making a custom maneuver over a power?

 

I think the difference us whether you want to do it reliably or not.  Whether you want to gave to roll dice. The power I suggested would work reliably unless someone sought to intervene.

 

Personally, if it wasn't so much of a pain in the ass to do, I would gave every character have an SFX based VPP, where they could do anything their SFX justified.  That would feel superheroes, if it wasn't for the constant calculations on whether I could fly at that speed, shrugging off bullets while carrying the ark of the covenant....

[LoneWolf]

It needs to be built and paid for if this is something the character plans on using on a regular basis and having it work reliably.  How to build it also depends on what the player wants to do with it.  If this is just something that the character might do once or twice in a campaign it probably does not need to be built.  If this is going to be a regular thing the character does, it needs to be defined.  

 

 

If all you want to do is to grab a single hostage, the grab by maneuver will allow you to do it but has penalties that make it difficult to count on.  The grab by maneuver takes a -3 OCV and -4 DCV, which puts the character at a real disadvantage.  By spending 5 points for a flying grab, it reduces the penalties to a -2 OCV and -1 DCV and Gives the character +10 STR to grab with.  So, a character with a flying grab can probably safely get two hostages with only a -1 to his DCV.   Using TK or Teleport as an attack would allow the character to save multiple targets without exposing the character to much danger.  Like I said earlier it depends on what the player wants to be able to do.  
 

[Gauntlet]

24 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

If all you want to do is to grab a single hostage, the grab by maneuver will allow you to do it but has penalties that make it difficult to count on.  The grab by maneuver takes a -3 OCV and -4 DCV, which puts the character at a real disadvantage.  By spending 5 points for a flying grab, it reduces the penalties to a -2 OCV and -1 DCV and Gives the character +10 STR to grab with.  So, a character with a flying grab can probably safely get two hostages with only a -1 to his DCV.   Using TK or Teleport as an attack would allow the character to save multiple targets without exposing the character to much danger.  Like I said earlier it depends on what the player wants to be able to do.  

 

One note, just because you get the bonus to STR for holding on does not mean you can carry more. If you have a 10 STR you can still only carry one person, the grab bonus would not allow you to carry two people, it only makes your grab harder to escape from.

[LoneWolf]

True, but the real benefit is it improves your chance of being able to pull the hostage free if they are being held.  That is what the extra STR does allow you to do.