eepjr24

10 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Full disclosure:  I am quite likely the least familiar-with-6e (and potentially 5e, as I haven't re-read it in a few years now) member of this board.

 

That being said, is there not a newer edition rule that allows CE to assess skill roll penalties?  Selecting that option would not result in having to make two skill rolls, but instead would make their "normal" magic roll more difficult so long as they were in the affected area.

 

Would that not work for you?

Yes. See below for more specific problem.

9 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@eepjr24 I would look to the Ice Sheet example to answer your magic skill roll. It shouldn’t cause two rolls just one at a Penalty. And I would assume that if a Spell didn’t have a RSR then it would still force a roll.

Right, that makes sense now that I read a little more carefully and just treat their existing skill roll as another CE. 

I guess my concern was if not only does the spell not have an RAR, but the character does not even have the Magic Skill. By forcing a Magic Skill roll, for the purposes of that roll I am giving them a skill at their CHAR value, which is not the biggest problem in the world. If that's the only issue it should not be game breaking.

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4 minutes ago, ChaosDrgn said:

I'd do a drain with an AOE. 

You can't drain something that the target does not have. And draining skills has always seemed abusive to me due to the cost problems (a 2d6 Drain will wipe out most skills completely) and implementation (if you drain a skill to 0, what is the roll for an RAR then?).

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Looking for input on this idea... A spell which creates an area where magic is more difficult to work. Change Environment allows you to create effects that force a "Characteristic Roll and all Skill Rolls based on same Characteristic". 

Quote

If applicable, the combat effect includes forcing an affected character to make at least one Characteristic, Skill, or PER Roll.

So in the setting in question there are 3 characteristics (INT, EGO, PRE) that a magic skill can be based on. The ability to force a roll costs 4 CP per characteristic, so for 12 points plus modifiers (area of effect, etc.) you could create a spell that requires a Magic Skill Roll to cast a spell. All of this would be at the discretion of the GM.

So the questions that immediately come to mind are...

If the caster requires a skill roll already, does that mean they make 2?

What if they don't have the magic skill? Does this simply force them to make a CHAR (appropriate to their school) roll to cast? 

Things that I would assume:

The active points of the spell do not matter for the purposes of this roll. 

The spell would have no effect on anyone not attempting to cast a spell (unless there were other effects in the CE).

This is a spell that I likely would not allow to be built with Personal Immunity because of the special effect.

I would like to have something like this in the setting I am building, so if this seems broken in some way and you see an alternative I'd be interested.

- E

On 10/13/2020 at 8:36 PM, unclevlad said:

OK, but for all intents and purposes the Charges is still giving him a price break because now he can take Costs END as a limitation, when he wasn't going to be able to get that before.  If this is on, say, a Blast, he can get 12 charges, costs END, and that's -1/2.  Pretty good chance that's going to greatly simplify the problem of filling out the whole -1. 

 

Other things to consider...would you allow clips?  8 clips of 4 charges that cost END is 32 charges total, and still -1/2.  

 

How long does it take to adjust a spell?  That's a big aspect here.  One very specific limitation that comes into play is Limited Power.  "Only versus demons."  Well cuz you expect to face demons.  Well when their ghoul minions suddenly swarm, if it takes little time to switch the spell to "only vs. undead" then it's hardly limiting.

For those and many other good reasons, Variable Limitations is a Caution Sign limitation, specifies that the GM should limit the choices and has a list of suggested choices that does not include Limited Power (Concentration, Extra Time, Gestures, Incantations, Increased Endurance Cost, Perceivable, and Side Effects). It also does not include Charges, which is why I brought the idea here, because folks are very good at seeing the exploitable holes. 😃 I might consider allowing clips if it made sense from a roleplay standpoint, but it's not likely. As to how long it takes to change, Variable Limitations take a full phase of doing nothing else at half DCV to change, per 6E. And changing clips also requires a full phase, which is rather more limiting in a Fantasy setting.

That does serve to reinforce why the rules are there, though. I'll look carefully at any spells the players design with this limitation. It only exists as a requirement on one spell "college" right now.

- E

On 10/9/2020 at 2:02 PM, ChaosDrgn said:

Transferring some weapons from that d20 system. Was wondering how you'd do the crit damage as well as piercing/bashing/etc...

You've had plenty of responses here with some options and lots of opinions about why you should not bother. I'll not add any more to the latter. 😃

I have done a lot of 5e conversions and if you want to see an alternative way of handling the whole piercing / slashing / bludgeoning versus armor, take a look at @Killer Shrike armor system. It's complex but an interesting take IMO. http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/armamentsNotes.aspx#ARMOR

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If you have not checked it out already, take a look at @Killer Shrike's web site. He has a ton of resources that can work well for a Low Powered Fantasy world. Also a good bit of advice on building magic systems with a bunch of examples of fully built systems. (Yes, I know it says High Fantasy, but the resources are appropriate to many genre)

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/FantasyHERO.aspx

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13 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

I'd say that the charges are simply fixed and NO changes are allowed until the recovery time AND recovery conditions (if the player tries to slap Restricted Recovery on) are met.  It's the only way you can force the player to honor the charges costing structure, IMO.  

 

An exception would be if no charges have been used, AND the player can justify a power swap during the day, but this isn't something I'd consider automatic at all...and definitely not simply a full phase.  If nothing else, this is simply to keep things clean, and the game moving.  

 

Otherwise, I do see it as abusable...because it can be a way to get 0 END as part of a "limitation."  

Ah, yes, I can see where that would be a problem in some cases. In this case it would be part of a spell in a spell system where all spells require END expenditure even if they have charges. I was riffing because I did not want to get too bogged down in the specific application, but in that case it very much matters.

Outside of that structure I would probably look at it a little more carefully as well. In anything outside a structured spell system it would probably be better to limit the changes to the charges portion to those specifically approved beforehand.

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Thoughts on allowing Charges in a Variable Limitation? My caveats would be that the player could only elect Charges on the first use of the day and the Charges would remain in the Variable Limitations for the full day. So if they had Variable Limitations at the 1/2 level, requiring -1 in limitations, they could elect to have 4 charges at the beginning of the day and that would be set for the day. Or they could elect to have 8 charges plus Costs End. In a later turn he could spend a full phase and change that to 8 charges plus Full Phase (the number of charges remaining would be the same as before). Then he could change it again after having spent 4 charges to 8 charges plus Requires 4 charges per use and get one more shot for the day. 

To change this he would have to spend a full phase in the new day, just like switching normally, before he used the power with Charges assigned.

- E

5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

<snip>

 

Now I start thinking.

 

A 12d6 Blast, 11- Activation would cost 30 points.

 

Adding Burnout would make it cost the same 30 points.  Jammed would reduce it to 24 points.

 

But I'm getting 24 points + a 1 charge version of the power that still costs END (17 points) for 30 points by changing Jammed to Burnout.  Maybe Jammed and Burnout are on the stingy side already.  Is it really only worth 6 points to move from a 62.5% chance it works in each subsequent attempted use to no hope at all?

I followed you fine up to this point. Then you lost me. I think you are including a limitation you didn't write down maybe?

12d6 Blast [60 AP] RAR: 11- (-1/2) [40 RP]

12d6 Blast [60 AP] RAR: 11- Jam (-1) [30 AP]

Burnout is the same cost as just the RAR. It gets you one for sure shot and a 62.5% chance of a second and subsequent shots. I have always thought this one was slightly under limited since my reading of the text (6E1 and the 6E Equipment Guide) makes fixing it a much more serious. Almost every example I can find of Burnout makes the equipment "experimental" or "makeshift". I think if I used it more I would likely rule it an additional -1/4 limitation, but I almost never use it.

Jammed seems more in line for me if you limit it to things that have charges. For -1/2 MORE limitation, you can have your power back after a missed roll at the cost of an additional missed phase and one of your charges (or clips in some odd cases). It's not consistent, as some weapons with Jam in the Equipment guide say that after a jam it must be repaired or that it melts a component. Others list 1-2 phases to clear and some specify as long as 5 minutes to clear (6E EG 165 - Tangleweb Projector) or even "burns itself out in the process" (6E EG 180 - Power Augmentor).  Obviously all of this is well within "GM Discretion" but it has always seemed a little loosey goosey to me. 

Honestly, RAR has always seemed a bit low to me, but that is a conversation for another day.

- E

13 hours ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

This sounds like the Burnout option for Requires A Roll.

It's less limiting than Burnout, I did consider that option. But the conditions for burnout to reset are "the rest of the adventure (or until the power recovers from Burnout or is repaired, at the GM’s discretion)". Yes, I can apply GM discretion, which is really what I am trying to do here.

I am going to quote a bit of 6E here to illustrate what I am trying to change. I have played with folks who don't use this rule, so if you don't play this way, I can see why it would look a lot like Burnout. 6E 391:

Quote

Regardless of the type of roll used, a character always makes Required Rolls after all other preparations. For example, he must spend the END for a power regardless of whether the Required Roll succeeds; if the power is an attack, attempting to use it is an Attack Action even if the power fails to activate. Making a Required Roll is an Action that takes no time that’s part of the overall attempt to activate or use an ability; if the roll fails, the character can’t change his declared Action.

If we look at a power, say a Blast. With 11- Burnout, you get one shot and if it burns out then you generally reset it when you can get to your lab or a repair shop or whatever. Maybe it works for 10 phases in a row, who knows. But every phase you want to use it, you have to commit to spending the END, Charge, attack action, etc.

Same Blast with 11- and the option above. I'll call it Requires a Reset Roll. On your phase, you roll your reset (0 phase action), if you succeed the power is available again for use, in that phase or later phases. There is no END, Charges, or commitment to an attack action required. If your reset roll fails, you cannot use the power that phase and must roll again next phase to see if it has reset yet.

So the differences:

No commitment to use the power to attempt the reset.

No END or charges spent if the reset roll fails.

So I am trying to figure out if those two are worth removing 1/2 limitation from the RAR.

- E

So I have a variation of RAR that I want to implement. It would work thus: When a new day starts, the power has one use available automatically. When that use is expended, the power requires a roll to be used again. However, unlike the typical RAR, the roll for each phase is known prior to the action being taken. So the character does not need to use END or waste the phase on something they know is not going to work. I would likely limit this to powers using the Unmodified Roll version of RAR. Once you successfully make the roll, the power is available once more until you use it, then the process starts again.

My thought here would be it is 1/2 less limitation value. So an 11- would be a -0, 10- would be -1/4, etc. 

Thoughts?

P.S. I realize there are probably other ways to do this (Dedicated END reserve with REC on a RAR or a naked Recoverable charge with RAR perhaps) but I'd like to focus on whether the 1/2 less limitation seems fair and balanced.

- E

2 minutes ago, massey said:

 

Major Transform can change people into microwave ovens.  Boy to girl is not a Major Transform.

You are certainly entitled to that opinion.  But turning people into microwaves seem to clearly be a Severe Transform to me (just to level set, I am using 6E rules).

Under Major Transforms:

"granting him abilities he doesn’t have (such as giving a normal human wings)"

I'd certainly argue that men are just as likely to grow wings as they are to have a baby without major surgery to accomplish either one. YMMV.

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On 10/7/2020 at 11:50 PM, Thia Halmades said:

That’s it. That’s my whole answer. Comedy is minor, if we start getting into the hormones and how men and women are actually quite different, moderate. I don’t see it as major as it’s not adding or removing powers.

Well, one quibble here. You are either adding or removing a power to summon an infant human, at least in many cases.

Nit picking aside, I would say it is Major in serious settings, simply because of the logical final form. A ray that turns all women into men or vice versa could effectively end up being genocide for that race.

- E

Depends on if it fits the story I guess. If it does, then the hero's will somehow find out about a chink in it's armor or a weakness to a specific effect or a special weapon that can help, etc. 

Outside of that I think poison is an option (NND Does Body) or as mentioned above certain spells with penetrating (perhaps multiple times), AVAD versus power defense if that is lower. Some things to keep it busy while you work on it (Flashes, entangles, maybe drains or suppresses?).

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Ah, yes. Thanks. FH6E, pg 276 if anyone else is looking.

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The 6e Grimoire has a common limitation called "Spell (-½)". I thought at some point I had found where it was defined in the book but for the life of me I cannot locate it now. Does anyone have a page reference?

- E

39 minutes ago, Thia Halmades said:

What are you thinking, like a 30 point SER PRE attack, AVAD to CON?

Hrm. That would work once. The problem with PRE attacks is that you get used to them. But besides that, would AVAD to CON be a -0?

- E

1 minute ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@eepjr24, I didn’t really do any math and plus (if I didn’t say it before) have the APG. However it’s good that you did the math for the VPP.  It’s nice that at to have a decent alternative method.

Yup, I was not trying to discount your math, just was surprised the VPP came out competitive.

17 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Not innovative, but you can force a character to only have a 1/2 phase with a +10 PRE Attack. Not as restrictive in HERO but you limit them to either moving or attacking.

Something that smells that bad might be quite... startling! 😃

18 hours ago, Thia Halmades said:

Yeah, I know. Mind Control. But that’s what we would use to specifically restrict how someone behaves. I think it’s a touch ... odd? But not inherently illegal or kludgey. You pop in a CON check/saving throw modified by the AP of the effect and go from there.

That's another way to go. Or I could go with the STUNNED Change Environment effect with a -1 limitation that it only lasts half a phase. They get a CON roll to save.

- E

15 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@Tech since I don’t have APG, I’d say having a +2 Advantage is enough of a price. I’m thinking if you can affect 4 powers at once with Expanded Effect then using that to represent any Power one at a time is roughly equal.

Oddly, even at that price it is still more expensive than the VPP unless you load it up with limitations. Assuming a 60 AP Drain (before Variable Effect (VE)) and -1 worth of lims, the VE would be 90 RP, the VPP would be 82 RP. At -2 worth of lims, the VE would be 60 RP, the VPP would be 75 RP. Even in the cases where you load it with limitations the VPP is more versatile since you can switch the limitations on every casting.

[Math for -1: (60 + ((15*3)/2) assumptions: Cosmic(+2), Drains Only (-1)]

[Math for -2: (60 + ((10*3)/2) assumptions: Cosmic(+2), Drains Only (-1)]

I've always thought of VPPs as too expensive, but for some versatile power structures they are reasonable.

- E

2 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@eepjr24 yeah what I should’ve said was Varying Effect Advantage.  I’ll double check when I get a chance but I know that there is an advantage of what the OP wants.

I laid it out in my post. Variable Effect just lets you switch within a given special effect. To switch special effects you need the APG.

31 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

That’s a nice idea! I think that there is an advantage called expanded effect and at the +2 cost you can choose any Power to Drain.

Close. Expanded Effect at the +4 level lets you affect all of the powers of a given special effect at once. 

1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

Simple enough, just give him a Variable Power Pool  for Drains.

That is simple. For a 60 point Pool and 60 point control that would be 105 RP. [Math: (60 + ((30*3)/2) assumptions: Cosmic(+2), Drains Only (-1)]

Sorry to have confusion on the original topic line, that was another line of thought that was related to the above but not quite the same. If you have ideas on how to limit someone to half phases, I am open to that as well.

- E

1 hour ago, Tech said:

I've looked at the Drain advantages but I don't think any of them quite fit. I'm designing a villain who can drain any superpower, but only 1 at a time.

ex: If a hero has Barrier, Blast and Flight, he can pick which one to apply his drain to.

 

As long as he's aware of any power a hero has, he can apply his Drain to it but only one power at a time. Did I miss the advantage/how would you build this?

From a pure rules standpoint, you might be able to do it if the GM has defined the allowed special effects in their setting. You would use Variable Effect (6E1, 142) in combination with Variable Special Effects from (6E APG1, 55). Depending on how broad the GM has his special effects set out, this could get fairly expensive but that is probably good since we are talking about an optional rule on a caution sign advantage. Since it's a villain, personally I would just set an arbitrary number for the total special effect categories and call that "all of them". Depending on how broad you want to go that could be as few as say 6 (Magic, Genetic, Technology, Symbiotic/Parasitic, Alien, Other) or as broad as hundreds or thousands (Fire, Ice, Vehicle Based, Power Suit based, Mutant, Time, Teleport, etc.). Personally, this looks powerful but not game breaking, so I would probably set it to +2 (128 special effects). So for +2 1/2 you could affect one power of any special effect, one at a time.

The normal caveats about do what works for your game, etc. apply.

- E

So, first a quick reference to the effect I am looking at:

Quote

Fetid Cloud (1/Day). A 10­-foot radius of disgusting green gas extends out from the dretch. The gas spreads around corners, and its area is lightly obscured. It lasts for 1 minute or until a strong wind disperses it. Any creature that starts its turn in that area must succeed on a DC 11 Constitution saving throw or be poisoned until the start of its next turn. While poisoned in this way, the target can take either an action or a bonus action on its turn, not both, and can't take reactions.

This is a DND 5e effect from a demonic creature called a Dretch. Feel free to read up more on it if you are interested. I am not worried about the lightly obscuring, time or dispersal methods, I am curious how you would implement the effect in Hero System terms. For those unfamiliar with DND 5e, it essentially restricts you taking reactions which would roughly translate to not being able to execute triggered actions that require thought or decision making. I am thinking I will simply either skip or handwave this effect, maybe with a preset value ALA CE: STUNNED in APG, but I am curious if anyone has an innovative way to do it?

- E

9 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Who taught Albert Einstein how to discover the Theory of Relativity?  Who trained Stephen Hawking to get better at physics?  What was the formal musical training which enabled the Beatles to advance music so significantly in under a decade?  I suggest that, in many fields, the top-tier people have long since moved past "being taught",and learn by doing, often by working in collaboration.

Einstein had been teaching for almost 10 years when he completed his General Theory of Relativity. And as I pointed out in my post, I said everyone can teach themselves it just takes more time than is typically available for normal game advancement. Hawking taught and collaborated for the last 30 years of his life. Collaboration is just another form of teaching, receiving outside input to hone your own skills. The Beatles are not my forte, you'll have to draw your own conclusions on that one.

I think we agree that people can self teach to nearly any level, although having teachers and collaborators is another option. I just don't think that most players want to spend 10 years becoming the best in their field.

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