Phil

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks? Can I throw in a slight curve ball here, to use an americanism in a hopefully correct way! What are we talking about here. We're talking about moving X distance, attacking, and then moving Y further distance, without crossing through the intervening space. Short of using on the SPD options, none of the alternatives really satisfy, because you cant make a half-move after an attack, only before. If you really want to do this, it strikes me that the construction you need is Desolid combined with an attack that works while desolid (plus, if you want velocity damage, STR that works while desolid). If you're looking for a literal construction, this is the one. If you're looking for an abstracted construction, I'd suggest that nothing beats an EB AoE, range limited to the range of teleport.

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks? Personally, I'm not so sure about SPD8 for Nightcrawler, but it might be a viable opportunity for 6 SPD Nightcrawler with + 4SPD (only to teleport (-1?-2?)) and DCV CSLs.

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit For what it's worth, I'll pipe up here. I played vanilla four-colour Champions with Doc Democracy, and even there he redesigned the character sheets (I think it must be his GM motif) As a hardened hero player, I loved it. For the first time, the character sheet looked like a superhero, not like a list of numbers. He did the same thing with a league of extraordinary gentleman type adventure, restyling it again - alas, I missed that game. But I understand that too goes down well. The context is a group of non-hero players, which is relevant to a great extent, but it also serves to illustrate the wider point of how HERO can be used as the nuts and bolts. Engineers may love to admire a chassis, engine and various nuts and bolts; drivers are interested in how it runs; the rest of us ignorant masses just look at it and say "that looks cool!". With a bit of work, HERO has the capacity to appeal to all of these people: at the moment, it's mostly the engineers who are drawn to it. In fact, a better parallel might be Windows vs. Linux. Whatever, i think you get the point!

Re: Astronomy/Physics question My turn to step in. OK, I understand this, but the query I have is whether the sudden loss of mass does not of itself constitute the acting of a force upon the moon? I can accept that in two parallel universes a hollowed moon and a non-hollowed moon would behave identically, but I'm it certainly seems counter intuitive (a term therefore suggesting that it's probably good physics!) that the transition of solid to hollowed would have no effect. For example, any change in velocity owing from a reduction on mass is not going to be instantaneous (or will it?), whereas a reduction in mass does have an instantaneous gravitational effect. Now, I'm not a physicist, so I'm merely asking the questions, but I just wanted to make sure we werent comparing two steady-states when we need to consider the transition. Also, just a minor point, but the calculations as to moon mass at the centre are surely likely to be slightly out, because of the greater pressure and thus greater mass density at the centre of an object? I'm sure it's calculable, and possible on an object the size of the moon it isnt significant, but wanted to flag it up!

Re: How far to stretch a core system? Well, Doc Democracy knows I'm in agreement with him, as we discussed it over dinner last week. What we might not agree on it was, to us, is 'core' and what is not Here's a classic. To "The Artist Currently Known But For How Much Longer As RealLemming", STUN is integral. For me, it isnt. You could lose STUN entirely, and have all damaged handled by BOD. You could keep STUN damage, but only for the purposes of comparing to CON for stunning. You could get rid of the traditional damage system altogether and introduce a wound levels. You could even get rid of the entire combat system, and have everything determined by variations on Transform. The point is, you retain the internal balancing mechanisms that underpin HERO - so you know the relative value of a characteristic, you know the benefit of not affecting Figured Chars, you know the general principles of Limitations. If you take those things into account, anything is possible, and HERO becomes the genuine tool kit it is capable of being. After all, take 90% of the tools out of a tool kit, and it doesnt stop being a toolkit!

Re: Crainial Gassss... In general I agree with MitchellS, but this has the potential to allow Transform to be a cheap VPP, which is wrong. Remember, you should always go with the most expensive option. If a transform costs relatively little, but can function as climb, swim, HKA, HA, ForceWall and Entangle, there's a major risk that you're getting something for nothing. It depends on the nature of the game as well and whether it's a (semi-)permanent change or not. For supers, if it's temporary, I think the multipower (or a VPP) route is the right one, linked to a cosmetic Transform or even just calling it SFX. If its permanent, it's at least a minor transform, and the effective ability you get from it needs to be proportionate to the cost of the transform (and I'd use a VPP as a comparitor). If its heroic, you're more likely to be in hand-wave territory. Phil

Re: HERO System question Non-recoverable charges (scrolls have been mentioned) Limited items (only by Big Ass Evil Sorcerors) Different schools of magic Thieves Attacks targeting items Alternatively, adopt the Super Hero line: for such items, if a player wants to keep it and wants it to remain useful, he has to invest XPs in it. Say 50% of all XPs earned until he's paid it off.

Re: Caps on Characteristics for Standard Supers Something you might like to consider is applying NCM principles to any caps you set. So if someone really, *really* wants to be Captain Invulnerable, they can, but they have to pay double for DEF over and above whatever campaign limit you set. It's often bothered me that campaign limits usually set 10d6 attacks with 20-25 point defences, so you're always going to take around 10 damage. Let them spend an 20 points to put the defence to 30-35: they're's a chance they'll still take some damage from a normal 10d6, and they'll take plenty from an AP or NND attack. Something else I like to do is to apply an Active Point campaign maximum to all characteristics. So, if your limit is 60 points, you cant spend any more than 60 on Strength, or 60 on Dex or 60 on SPD. As a side note, it's interesting how design philosophies vary. HERO makes defences cheaper than attacks, but relies on GMs imposing campaign limits to ensure that the maximum defence will still allow PCs to take damage from the maximum attack. On the other hand, I was looking at Aberrant the other day, and it simply takes the approach of making defences much more expensive than attacks.

Re: Mega Scaling Explosions And it's for this reason and the fact that NPCs can have limitless points so it isnt an issue that I basically wont ever allow MegaScale to be used in this way. Megascale the range sure, becasue the downside is you accurately cant hit any target smaller than the megascaled hex, but personally I wont ever allow a megascale AoE. Well, not in anything other than a cosmic-supers or sci-fi game. A different Phil

Re: Multiple Grabs Could you just get a naked Advantage and apply AoE to STR (only for purposes of grabbing)? This is a slightly clunky construction, but seems to most neatly fit the desired outcome.

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?) Rep Dave for that post. Totally agree. Four-color and Iron Age are equally unrealistic as two extremes of the scale. Iron Age (or the more extreme Authority-esque Iron Age) actually go out of their way to ridicule and disempower individuals expressing four-color sentiment. I guess, in a way, four-color does the same in reverse (only they're called bad guys there!). I'd be keen to read a real, solid Iron Age story that genuinely tried to be real. Oh wait, I have. Watchmen. Zenith (from 2000AD - if you can get hold of it, do so. Kinda Iron Age meets Cthulhu ). Still, they're few and far between in this age of computer-game driven goreophiles.

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?) I think partly there is a problem with definition. The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen are both Iron age, and they are two of the greatest comic books ever written. The Authority is very different to both of those, yet ostensibly still 'iron'. I like them all. However, in terms of what I dislike about something like the Authority, it's the gratuity and, to some extent, proxy-hedonism of it. The Authority have great big drunken orgies on a giant space ship because... well, I can only assume its because the writers think that'd be a cool thing to do if they were super hip. No story value, other than revealing how superficial these supposedly deep-thinkers and moral guardians actually are. Similarly, I've no particular problem with a bit of blood and death, but I do tire of the same old variant picture of Jack Hawksmoor always punching peoples heads off. *yawn* If what defines the Iron Age is a more realistic treatment of how Supers might function in the real world, I'd probably go so far as to suggest that the Authority is not Iron Age. It's as much a fantasy as Golden Age heroism, just in the opposite extreme. Finally, major dislike of Iron Age style: no arch-villains and no repeating nemeses. Because they only get to lose once. Inhibits story-telling big time, and part of my reason for losing interest in the Authority.

Re: Happy Birthday Shem Whistler Peculiar topic for Star Hero. If he was a wierd mutant alien I could almost understand it. But then again, Tolkien never does explain where hobbits actually come from. Ah, it all starts to make sense. Happy Birthday though, all the same!

Re: Torg HERO I think there's two ways to go (as usual!). The first is to try and accurately recreate Torg mechanics, the second is to recreate the essence of Torg but using HERO for the core. The latter is easiest. Use SPD as written. The initiative line is one of the weakest aspects of Torg IMHO. As an alternative, i'd been thinking similarly about limiting spd. However, what I'd do is give three speed levels which reflects the variability of the Torg initiative lines: - 'Mooks', non-possibility rateds etc.: SPD 2 - P-rateds: SPD 3 - Major baddies (i.e. 'Dramatic' conflicts): SPD 4 Phil

Re: Torg HERO

Re: Torg HERO Amazingly unwieldly? Not at all. Essentially, Torg was just a generic system with a relatively simply game mechanic bolted on to limit the ability of characters to wield spells, miracles, psi and high tech all at the same time. Having said, like so many game systems, the basics were simple, the devil was in the details. And boy, is there some detail! BTW, had some further thoughts on Torg magic. I wasnt entirely comfortable with the thought that spells were just tools for a Heroic game, like guns or armour. Then I thought some more about arcane knowledges (AK): - every spell is linked to one main AK, whether Fire, Living Forces, Time or whatever (there are 22 in total) - you can only have one spell of any given AK active at the same time - your Magic Skill + AK skill directly limits what spells you can learn. The more powerful spells are almost always going to be harder to learn. Know what this says to me? It says multipower. Each AK is a separate multipower, and the power of the spells you can deliver is obviously then going to be limited by your AK (i.e. by the size of the multipower). You can also usually only have one power active at a time - if the multipower pool is large, then you'd just add a custom limitation to enforce it. Raises more questions of Possibility Points to XP conversion though, as a new spell can be learned for just 1 PP from a grimoire, or designed from scratch for free (given a few months of downtime). For the purposes of Torg HERO I'd be inclined to make Characteristics more expensive to increase, and Powers cheaper to increase - the main way characters develop in Torg is through the addition of new abilities like magic, psionics, cyberware and better skills.

Re: Torg HERO Given that axioms have little impact on day-to-day play, I wouldnt bother. If you're playing the game to the letter, where axioms come in is modifying disconnection difficulties. Because it's been necessary to tweak disconnection difficulties to fit the 3d6 bellcurve, it would probably be necessary to adjust them slightly as well. However, my experience from Torg mailing lists is that many Torg GMs dont use this. Main use is in 4-case contradictions, when PC uses a tool that is above his personal axioms AND above axioms of the land, such as an Elf using an M16 in Living Land. There the difficulty of reconnecting would be increased by: [Elf Tech axiom = 16, M15 Tech axiom = 22, Living Land Tech axiom = 7] 22-16=6, 22-7=15. Total penalty=22. 4-case contradictions will often make a difficult reconnection impossible, which is why they're often ignored. Other use is in 1-case contradictions, but only when PC uses a tool that exceeds their axioms but NOT those of the land. Then there is a bonus equal to that difference. This rule is used even less often than the one above. But, in short, you're right. If you use these rules, you need to convert them, either by extending the DN conversion chart up to around 40, or by converting the axioms. Side note: Torg has no automatic success or automatic failure. Do you therefore drop this element of HERO system, or keep it? Phil

Re: Hero System women are all insanely attractive I have to say, this thread has only added to my firm conviction that COM has no place in any mature roleplaying game. Ooh, slightly trollish. OK, I'll rephrase that. What's the value in making people pay for good looks, when looks are nothing more than a roleplaying hook. Let PCs be as gorgeous or as ugly as they want. After all, comic book characters are. You dont think that Stan Lee sits down and think... hmmm, Johnny Storm is better looking than Reed Richards, so I've got a few extra points to spend on Reed's KS? Dont have any problem with attractive PCs. Just have a problem with arbitrary and pointless scales. It simply panders to immature players ("Hey dudes, look how hot my chick is!"). Tell them they can all be as gorgeous as they want and the novelty will soon fade. Of course, the other reason I take this position is that my COM is off the scale, and feel that it's unfairly penalising other PCs in this crazy Real World game we're all playing.

Re: Torg HERO Oooh, dont get me started on that old chestnut! The main thing I'd like to check is the exact ratio of +1 in Torg to HERO, so that we can ensure things like drama deck and possibilities have similar effects for both systems. Then, it's usually a simple matter of discarding half of the tables (interaction, value/measure chart, damage table) and converting the others. Other thoughts: variable cosm limits: Torg 13 = HERO 20. Well, not exact, but let's assume that. Torg operates on 5 points = x10, so a cosm limit of 14 is 58% better. So, for HERO, let's make that 23. Roughly powers, cyberware, etc. = the chief benefit of moving to hero is getting better regularity of special abilities. Plus, no adventure cost - yay! Dont convert these, use Hero. It's what it's best at. Miracles: replicated with HERO powers, with various side effects and lims. - skill roll - side effects (failure of skill roll means that miracle cant be used again for 24 hours or until purified) - gestures, incantations etc. as relevant Implementing separate Faith and Focus skills would be hard but not impossible. How about this? Use a general EGO skill roll, plus: - Faith Skill Levels - add to the success chance of skill roll (penalty based on active points of power, as per fairly common magic limitation) - Focus Skill Levels - add to effect, as per converting CSLs to damage So no 'miracle' skill as such, just two types of skill levels. Make sense? Magic: More difficult, in part because of metaphysical arguments that still rage as to whether the magic presented in the Aysle Sourcebook IS Magic and everything else is an exception to that rule, or whether there is no one system. However, you could do as little or as much conversion as you want - such is the beauty of HERO! The main spell system can have different skills creating the same effect: you can Apport a fire to make a fireball, you can Alter a small flame to become a fireball or you can just conjure a fireball from scratch. Each is progressively more powerful (apport moves fire, alter makes the fire move and makes it bigger and explosive, conjure has no limits) but progressively more difficult to use. One neat solution is simply to rely on a single magic skill with penalties based on *real* points value AS WELL AS active point value: so a spell with the limitation of 'must have existing flame' is easier than one without. The details of such a system would take some working, but it would be time rather than effort that is called for. You could then replicate the different types of magic skills again, as per miracles, as limited Skill Levels. Wish I'd bought the Ultimate Mystic now, as I'm sure there'd be good advice in there that could be valuable as well. [arcane knowledges are only really important for spell design. you could drop them entirely without suffering major loss. Technically, all Torg mages not only know spells but have access to a large VPP, the amount of which they can access depends entirely on their skill and the time they put. Gaining a new 'power' is not down to experience so much as time. Given that casting-on-the-fly in Torg is virtually impossible for all but the most skilled mages, however, I think you can safely ignore it. Moderately skilled mages are able to design their own spells in down-time however, or learn new spells from grimoires at the price of just 1 p-point. If you treat the game as Heroic and treat spells as tools, like guns or armour, then this isnt a problem.] Occult magic is wish magic, which makes it in HERO terms a variable power pool. What's unique about it though is that the Cosm itself provides the power for it, not the character, meaning occult mages dont carry around a personal 100point VPP: anyone with the occult skill can access it. It's something of a handwave magic system and, as such, I'd suggest directly translating the existing rules rather than converting it to a personal power. Nile Empire magic is a fairly simple variant of Ayslish magic, so whatever system is derived for that could work across both. Psionics similarly is a fairly simple conversion, like the magic system but a whole lot simpler. Anyway, I have a job to do! Perhaps I'll mull this some more and post later...

Re: Torg HERO The difference between losing consciousness from Shock damage and losing consciousness from KOs is the largely capricious randomness of KOs! And, as Dr D says, the fact that they happen irrespective of characteristics. STUN clearly replicates Shock directly, and as such I see no particular need to have a fixed value of Stun. Introducing KOs would need a new mechanic and, in order to repliate the propensity of KOs in Torg, would need to be absent at very low damage, Ks and Os spread equally around in the medium range, and KOs present together at high end. [for those who dont know, Torg has a damage mechanic where you get Wounds and Shock damage, like BOD and STUN. In addition you get awarded Ks and Os which individually do nothing, but as soon as you have one of each, you're unconscious for at least 1 minute] Personally I wouldnt replicate this mechanic, for 2 reasons: I'm not sure it's fundamental for a Hero-Torg conversion to cover every mechanic, and secondly, and more pragmatically, because it's likely to be dropped from the forthcoming 2nd edition! However if you did, I'm guessing what you need is: - mechanics based on damage taken, not damage inflicted - two separate mechanics that at low levels of damage dont occur together but at high levels of damage they do - at least one KO effect should occur on all but the very lowest damage totals. Those are pretty challenging parameters IMHO. Perhaps we should just live by the KISS principle: STUN dmge 2,4,6,8 = K STUN dmg 3,5,7,9 = 0 STUN dmg 10+ = KO If you were considering using KOs, then I would definitely scale up the effect of Possibilities to 3 BOD and 6 STUN, otherwise fights are going to be over pretty quickly. Phil

Re: Torg HERO If there's sufficient interest, I'd even consider doing a full and thorough article on converting TORG to HERO. Although it'll be ready in 2008 - I've got a long list of projects that are in a permanent state of 'nearly finished'!

Re: Torg HERO - LONG, sorry! But I had. Depends whether the game would have knockback or knockdown (i'd drop knockback personally, Torg is more heroic than superheroic), in which case the list of damage effects that p-points can ignore should read - 2 BOD, 5 Stun, Knockdown or Stun In the context of the HERO system that may sound quite powerful. It is. In the context of Torg, spending a possibility can turn fatal trauma into a flesh wound. In fact, given that 4 Wounds in Torg is equivalent to 0 BOD in HERO, it might even be 3 BOD rather than 2. YMMV depending on the number of points you allow PCs to be built on. 125 point PCs can afford a few points to boost their BOD, so use 2 BOD per p-point; 50 point PCs should be given the breaks, so use 3 BOD per p-point. Phil

Re: "Common Sense" descrepancy I suspect that's more to do with how the action is carried out. Pounds per square inch, I suspect most boxers (professional, at least) transfer more force than a brick-breaking martial artist. But the way boxers do so virtually guarantees that they would almost certainly shatter their knuckles in the process. Which is, of course, another serious side effect of the 'real Flesh' limitation: BODY damage should be applied equally to both attacker and defender's PD. If 1 or more gets through, 1 BOD is taken and that hand is now broken. Can continue to use it at -3 because of the pain, taking 1d6 AVLD Stun damage for every blow that lands. (defence is ???!) Phil

Re: Torg HERO - LONG, sorry! I feel the conversion of Torg to HERO would actually be quite simple. All you need to do is take HERO as is, modify one or two mechanics and add in rules for the new ones. The Reality Skill perhaps features as one of the main new mechanics. I can think of two options. A more literal translation makes it a skill, with special rules. A slightly more flexible translation treats it as a power: more flexible because this gives you much more scope in terms of the range of reconnection difficulty numbers. I'd probably go with the skill though! Difficulty reconnections currently range from 3 to 25 in Torg. In probability terms for an average starting character (say, skill +stat = 11) this ranges from 90% chance of success to virtually zero chance of success. Assuming similarly that an average starting Torg HERO character will have 11-, and 90% chance is 14- gives the following rough conversion: Torg Reconnection DN...HERO Skill penalty 3-5...+3 6-8...+2 9......+1 10....+0 11-12..-1 13.......-2 14-15..-3 16-17..-4 18-19..-5 20-21..-6 22-23..-7 24-25..-8 [Edit: this table is based on comparing probabilities of achieving results on 3d6 bellcurve against probabilities for Torg, as calculated by Kansas Jim, Torg Guru: http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~jogle/TORG/] You would probably want to redraw the Reality Storm Table to fit, but opposed rolls would definitely be order of the day. Of course, because the TORG bonus value chart is essentially designed to convert a linear d20 roll into a bell curve, it actually fits HERO Skill - Skill pretty well and might not need much alteration. Interesting view, because for many people this is the real innovation that Torg brought along. Personally I love it. Conversion is easy. Approved actions: These are only relevant to the meta-game of card play, so if you keep cards you can keep approved actions. In theory. The difficulty being the greater prevalence Torg puts on interpersonal skills as combat interactions: trick, test of wills, intimidate and maneuver. Personally I think this can still be done: substitute Intimidate and Test for Presence Attack; substitute Maneuver for any Agility skill; Trick could be substituted for any Intellect skill. Give NPC a situational penalty for the next action for success if the skill use itself doesnt provide some advantage, but gaining a card is the main reward. Initiative: You could give a bonus of +5 Dex only for purposes of determining order of actions to whoever is marked as coming first on the initiative line, or you could ignore it. The special actions on the initiative line could be ignored also, or interpreted as follows: - Inspiration: Gain free post-12 recovery - Flurry: gain additional half-phase action (or full phase, but in context of HERO that could be unbalancing) - Fatigue: Takes 2 STUN damage - Stymied: -1 on all Skills and -1 to every damage die - Up: +1 on Skill Rolls and +1 to every damage die - Confused: Keeps original meaning - players cant play cards into card pool - Break: Keeps original meaning - villains flee if they dont hit PCs in their next action Dramatic Skill resolution: Again, can function as was, with following modifications: - Complication: if action fails, add 1 to difficulty - Critical Problem: keep original meaning - if action fails, have to complete task with different skill - Last ditch effort: increase difficulty by 2, plus 1 for each step attempted. Card meanings: Mostly can be interpreted fairly straightforwardly. Treat a +3 as perhaps +1 to Skill Values and/or +1 to Damage dice. I think you should try to pretty much bring possibilities over as complete. So, 1 possibility can: - add 2 to a skill roll and, if applicable, every damage die. - achieve 3 effects out of: Remove 2 BOD from attack, Remove 5 STUN from attack - create reality bubble - effect as per Torg I would then create a ratio of possibilities to XP. Should be fairly straightforward. Standard award for HERO is 2-3XP, Standard award for Torg is probably 8-10. Call it 4 P-points = 1 xp and you'd be in the right ball park. Something else you might like to consider is the fact that p-rateds (e.g. PCs) can achieve extraordinary actions even without spending p-points because they get to roll again on a 20, which norms dont. Could interpret that as maybe: - On 5-, subtract 2 from roll. Roll 3d6 again, subtracting 2 and rolling again everytime you roll under 5. - As above, but when you roll 5 or 16 (prob my favourite, as it spreads the odds a bit) - As above, but when you roll double 2s [edit: or any other designated double for that matter!] You could complicate it further so that, for example, if you took the 5/16 option, you'd subtract 1 if you rolled a 5 and 3 if you rolled a 16, which perhaps better reflects the greater influence of roll-agains in Torg on bad rolls than on good rolls. (actually, they have the greatest effect on mid-range rolls - perhaps rolling double-2s is the way to go?). Well, I think that will do for now. I'm guessing it's too late for a confession. HERO system is just a childhood love with whom I now enjoy the occasional fling. However, I've been happily married to Torg for 13 years. How ashamed do I now feel?.... Phil

Re: Aberrant Hero!