Duke Bushido

Somewhere around here I have the '79 booklet. If it is of any help to you, and if I can find it..... Though I am curious about two things: Greyhawk Wars?

They'd suck on two continents.

Please: unddrstand that I am not advocating for anyone else to not use it- unoess they haooen to be at my table, of course. But for my games, if you arent stretched through the physical space from you to your target- I matter hiw circuitous a route you may use, you didn't stretch there. I dont know what you did: partial teleport, telekinesis, remote drone, whatever, but for my games "soesnt criss intervenibg space" means you need to buy a power that does not cross the intervening space, period. Just like "well, I biught teleport, ut I call it running without crossing the intervening space." That'a fine, because you started with a power that does not require you to cross the intervening space. Sorry- it is late here, if I go on much more, I am going to get loopy and disjointed, so let me just close with this: Use what works for you. I have a hieraecht for Power builds: I start at 2e and only when nothing there does what I want do I go forward, one "e" at a time. Same with modifiers. Decades of doinf that have demonstrated (to me) that one, possibly two other little booklets like Champions II could replace everyrhing printed since, rules-wise, since,most of the newer modifiers seem to boil down to "I want this, but cheaper" and the bulk of the newer powers (bit all) seem to be similar to that of "I can't quite seoarate this special effect from a mechanic and therefore it should be a power." A column in the changes to range modifiers, a paragraph on the changes to END costs, and boom: by Champions IV, we'd be all nice and current. That "no intervening spaces" thing smacks of it: I want range and indirect, but they cost too much. Hiw can I get both for less than the price of either? Bur again: that us just _me_. It rubs _me_ wrong. I am not going to advicate that it be stricken from the record, because I don't even use that particular record.

I dont know... I mean, everyone has played full-contact Uno, right? Same kind of vibe. Oh, don't get me started on that kind of nonsense. I am extremely fortunate in that at the age of 63, I still have both of my parents, and that they are not just "still with us," but vibrant and thriving. Realistically, given the relative levels of health and healthcare, they should both outlive me by at least a decade (I have CHF. I can look forward to ten to twelve years of slowly drowning to death). I would love to say that having them is all wonderful, biscuits-and-gravy kind of stuff (and it kind of is, seeing as I how I like neither of those things). Don't get me wrong: I love my parents, but I haven't been able to hold a lengthy conversation with them since I hit forty. My old man is constantly "you are too soft on those kids. They don't know what [whatever he is sputtering about at the moment- some completely unnecessary hardship, usually]. You should have raised them the way you grew up; the way I grew up. We have both been cutting firewood since we were nine years old! We both worked the fields since we were kids! We went hungry many a night in the dead of winter- me more than you ever thiught about having to! You should have raised them like that! That's how you grew up! I grew up worse than that, and I turn a out okay!" Yeah..., The fact that you wish your grandkids had to suffer hunger and unnecessary physical hardship suggests that maybe- just _maybe_-- you did not turn out as "okay" as you think you did... Yeah; I am afraid the "everyone should be subjected to this!" Mindset makes very little sense to me outside of rolling the windows down and blasting Baby Metal. I would like everyone who games to have the opportunity to try it, with a full understanding going in of just what it is and is not, but certainly I dont want to force it on anyone any more than want to experience some other kind of DnD. At least that kind never really pushed "fantasy" as much as it pushed "battle of wits! The five (or eight or whatever) of us against his most devious traps....." It was like full-contact Uno for the "oh! My brittle bones!" set. If I could find some other old school players, I might even want to try another game or two as I approach the "oh! My hip!" era of my life. Correct. More specifically, it wasn't what they would _become_ very shortly after. I can't point to any one game and say that "this is when the games changed" (though, given the era and the palpable difference, I do tend to point to Traveller, which stressed throughout the cooperation of Playes and Referees while old DnD seemed to stress "the DM can easily kill you, so he should pull his punches enough that clever playing might allow you to live, maybe, at least every so often." Yep. All that. Nail on the head, right there.

Remember when I said check,with your GM because while the book says one thing, this is one of those subjects that GM's just don't agree on? For example, I tend to allow TK to grab things and more things, over and over- it's in the book, etc, and if you have sufficient TK STR to lift ten people, I will let you. I have a few house rules, but they are minor: If you are grabbing multiple things or people who are closely grouped, you can (assuming sufficient STR) grab everything / everyone in a single hex all at once. If the targets are in adjacent hexes (and are not a single object) I asses a small penalty related to concentration / tracking multiple targets. There is an additional penalty if the target is one hex face angle away from whatever you might already be holding- again, it's about focus. TK skill levels easily offset them. If you are holding something with TK and wish to take an additional target that is two or more hex faces away (direction-wise) from the direction of something you are already holding, make an EGO roll to keep focus on all targets. That's about it: again, a "skilled mentalist" will easily offset these with- well, with his skills. I wont bore you with the rationale to allow multiple targets, as the majority of them only apply because i play an edition with Figured Characteristics. A large chunk of the justification is "because the rules seem to say that this you can do this." The rest is because Telekinesis is _not_ hands. (Unless your SFX says it is, because Hands would be a special effect, and reading TK as Hands would be to mandate a special effect. Lookin' at you, Bigby.....) It is Telekinesis. The ability to move (or hold still-- unmove?) things with you mind. See? Different GM, different take. Consult your GM before spending a lot of time on this build. The penalties and rolls exist to differentiate the skilled TK users from the rest. I tend to find the "it is not hands; it is telekinesis" thing also does away with a lot of the wierd 5e and up adders: of course you can pick up a cubic meter of water. Of course you can finely manipulate (watch out for PER penalties, though, if you are soldering by remote). If you do not want those things, take a limitation. of course, the down side is that since it isnt hands, you cant crush or punch with it. If you want those things, build them as linked (or triggered or whatever) attacks the depend on a telekinetic hold. (Same for growth and stretching momentum). Why? Because "do damage at range" is already well-covered with two powers I can think of already. Case in point as far as the different GM /diggerent rules thing goes: That advantage does not come to my table. I am not letting someone put Ranged (+1/2) and Indirect (+1/4 to +3/4)on their STR for a combined total of +1/4, no way; no how. It has been a few years, and I still cant fathom how that slipped through. Movement without crossing blah-blah-blah? Buy Teleport. Call it whatever you want, but buy Teleport. _However_, the idea he is suggesting will devil your PCs for some time. I have commented before that I don't generally use published villains, but for some reason, I took a shine to the 4e version of Cheshire Cat, and having just discovered Indirect in the same book, I put Ranged and Indirect on his STR, allowing him to throw a punch into the air in front of him, his forearm disappearing and reappearing five hexes to his left, cold-cocking the security guard sneaking up obliquely. Or do a standing roundhouse and sweep the Batman clone observing him from the parking garage two floors above. Or grab someone from across the room and poof away with them. In play, it is a lot more dazzling than the description, and even though some,of them have done it a dozen or more times, I _still_ have players who dread hearing that he is on the lose again. the utility of the build is truly impressive, especially as a sieze-the-Mcguffin kind of guy, but if you want me to give you that kind of utility for.a mere +1/4, you better come at me with a lottery-sized check first. I also want to point out that his Dr Octoous example was dead on.

I acnt believe we dis rhis and,no one did Spy versus Spy Kids. Misswd opportunity there...

Thanks for the update, Opal. I am kind of with Scott, though. Even as much as I dont like DnD, the few fond memories I have of it revolve around "besting" the GM in the borderline adversarial think-traps of old school DnD. Conversely, I have a few fond memories of being bested by the GM, but again- I enjoyed it more when it was more adversarial- when it was only a "role playing game" by virtue of rhe fact that it wasnt exactly a wargame. Dont get me wrong: I love a good RPG, I just dont want that version if DnD.

Dungeon Roomba.

Yeah, my son was disappointed about Mr. Mind not being in this one. He was rather looking forward to it.

So is the Lurker Above still a thing?

Always,have one guy who's job was to carry a 10' pole and poke the xeiking in the next section of corridor before moving into it.... The I'm murder carpet-- I mean, Lurker Above.... Any of you guys that still play- ia that still a routine need the, or sis they admit that it was just wandering damage and let it sie out?

Hear! Hear! Seriously: rpgs today are not what D and D was then. I think it was Opal who referred to old school D and D as survival horror. Best description I have ever heard. It wasn't _quite_ adversarial, at least nor directly, but the DM's job (as generally confirmed though the earliest modules and through the convention modules for some years after role playing started to develope) was to design a situation that you _could_ kive through, but werent likely to. Honestly, I can't remember ever hearing anyone under thirty spike a door open.....

Dude, this needs to go straight to your GM because there is a wide, wide gap of opinion this. Some will say "Yes" as the book doesn't say "no." Some will say you can hold up to your TK STR without regard for the number of things or targets. Some will say only one target at a time. Some will require a sweep maneuver, and still others will require Extra Limbs and "off hand" penalties. By the book? Yes. Other than that? Get with your GM.

Grammar police! Here to serve and correct!

Quite right. The point that I poorly made was I can use those same points to out you at a half of a percent chance to percieve me as something other than what I am even if you had a +30 modifier to your roll. For significantly less points, I can assign a -10 to your Tracking roll via CE without having to build Shape Shift versus what are we up to now? Eight sense groups? And a few random detects (wouldnt want "detect: quarry's trail" or something like that giving us away). The best part of modern shape shift? You dont shift shape. You are percieved as something else. There are a couple of meticulous pages od this. Even the Cellular adder means that your cells appear to be... Wait? Does my refrigerator have cells? That whole section mentions that the change occurs on a Cellular level, which leaves me flummoxed on just how the other side answers the Chair Question. Any way, change doesn't happen until you start buying the assets. You smell like a chair, you feel and taste like a chair, but oops- you are clearly a person because you still look and sound like one. You are simply negating perception rolls one sense or sense group at a time until you start throwinf in adders. All those points to buy a special effect: something that shouldn't happen in the first place, ever. And while I make no secret that I will always try every single power before falling back on T-form, a lot of this shapeshift debacle could be completely avoided if we just started ignoring the 'can't T-form self" rules. That is, if you feel that Shapeshift is something that you should have to pay for. I don't, so the "no Self T-form" rule works for me, but as a general topic, it doesnt seem,to offer much as a safeguard: the Multipower of Everything is always going to be cheaper than "T-form me into me with this other ability," so that's a non-starter as a defense. I was always puzzled by this rule, but once VPP got mainstreamed, any other build seems pointless.

Dude, I cant believe that Wings of the Valkyrie will never again see the light of day, and yet CLOWN is still something I can pop over to the HERO store and buy...

Ferrous Beuller. You're welcome. You are _all_ welcome. 😜

Ah, yes... They should redo CLOWN for every edition. My players _never_ get tired of findinf ways to,accidentally kill them, even if they have to report to jail and make new characters. And i never get tired of letting them.

You are quite welcome, Sir (I assume. If I am wrong, all apologies are made). If it helped, you are welcome, if it entertained but didn't actually help, well, you're welcome for the chuckle. And thank you this time, for the insight into the character. I would like to take a moment to go slightly deeper on something: Because I understand the need for this completely meta construct, and,because I believe that mechanics will _never_ be of greater importance than SFX (ideally, they are equally-important, but there are individual builds that will necessarily tip the scales one way or the other, such as ADO), I take SFX very easily, and I _require_ anyone taking desolid to declare at least 3 SFX that will affect them in some way: one at full damage, one at half damage, and one at half damage: STUN only. I require characters with ADO to declare at least 3 SFX they cannot fully-interact with: one is STUN only, and two they cannot affect at all. Either player May take limitations by wxceeding these requirements, ut these requirements are mandatory, without cost-adjustment. I would also like to point out that it is not as draconian as it sounds to those who out more stock in mechanics over SFX: SFX are nigh-unlimited. Affects Desolid, but not ghosts or electrical constructs, for example. Not only does this provide a slightly (_slightly_) more level playing field, but I find it encourages players to more fully flesh out the extent and limit of their powers. _Further_, I will rule on SFX v Desolid on a case by case basis. A being composed of pure electricity _may_ be affected by an electrical attack. Does he have energy absorption: electricity? No? So maybe he can't absorb or dissipate additional electricity effectively? Yes; Killer Watt'w electroblast _will_ do damage to him, but it will be normal and not Killing. That kind of thing. Spider-Man does _not_ have Affects Desolid. Newspapers do _not_ have Affects Desolid. Spiderman defeated (destryloyed?) Morrie Bench- the Hydro-Man- by luring him to a rooftop and bashing him with bundles of newspapers, which caused bits of him to splash out and be absorbed by the newspapers. It was slow-going; it was exhausting; it was one of like eight superhero comics I have read in my entire life, and it is totally relevant. Agreed. As demonstrated above, that is the sort of thing I mandate up front. While I one-hundred-percent agree with you and your logic here, I caution you to be careful with the application of science, of you soon end up proving that all attacks are PD attacks; what we call ED are actually PD attacks with special additional effects. Anyway, it sound like you have a pretty solid grasp of what you want from the character. You dont need our interfence in it.

It's a wolf.... About six-foot-two... Bipedal.... no; I'm kidding, of course. I understand what you mean. "redundant" was a poorly-chosen word, and I will accept correcrion to any word more approoriate; I was trying to sum up the idea of it being both unnecessary _and_ something of a hipocracy: it is a special effect that you are required to buy. The standing argument is "what power would possibly justify me being able to turn into a chair? Oh-ho! I've got you now!" I say standard argument because I have made this point multiple times, and out of those discussions, the chair example has been the counter used the most (three time now, I believe, but I havent actually been tracking), because apparently, it is thought to be the most befuddling possible thing to turn into. The reply will always be "why do you want to be a chair?" Really; why are you becoming a chair? Whatever it is that you feel being a chair will be the most advantageous way to do it- there is your answer: want to more easily support another character? It is the SFX of toggling a Reduced END on your STR. To hide from the villains? You have the Super Skill of Disguise, modeled by turning into a Chair. Your Beast Boy example is perfect of what I was striving for when I ill-advisedly chose "redundant." There is a write up of this character in Different Worlds magazine (with art by the late Mark Williams, but I know that I am the only person this interests. For what it's worth, it is some of his best; he appears to have begun to grasp altering proportions slightly to suggest movement or energy) done by Doug McD and Steve Petersen back in the 2e era; the write up doesn't have shape shift (even though Champs 3 had been published at this point). It has a laundry list of abilities all with the limitation "only in X identity," rebranded in this case as "only in appropriate form." Today, of course, that laundry list would be even cheaper, built on the Multipower of Every-- err.. Power Pool. The limitation would be "must assume apporpriate form for abilities in use" or words to that effect. Shapeshift is the special effect of Beast Boy (called "Changeling" in the DW write-up; Google tells me they are the same character and apparently he was Beast Boy before and after Changeling?) using his powers, period. Then we had Multiform, presumably this was from two possible pressures: either too many people weren't grasping form as SFX (which continues,to this day) or too many people wanted to do on the cheap (a problem that will only cease with the end of points-buy systems). Today, unless Multiform has been declared a Framework, one could do it on the Mega-cheap, pulling endless alternate forms from the Multipower of Every Power Ever and beating the form slot costs down to infentesimal. So here we have a second way to shapeshift. No one questions either of these; it is simply understood that the character will shapeshift. No one questions that he isn't being charged for his ability to shift his shape. It is completely understood that shape shifting is his special effect, and that we dont pay for special effects. In fact, in one of these two builds, this special effect is modeled as a _liability_ that denies access to certain power while others are in play based on how the character expresses his SFX at the activation of whatever abilities are in play: I turn into a gorilla and use my vast gorilla strength to scoop up the two injured people and carry them to safety! Okay, but the added weight and you pounding your way out to them has set up harmonics in the damaged bridge. It begins to oscillate and then wobble and now it is crumbling; you might not make it across the ravine before it collapses... Gorillas can't fly, can they? Outside of airplanes, no. Is there a bird that can carry two adult tourists? That kind of thing. Not only does he not pay for his special effect, in his case, the shapeshifting special effect is a liability that reduces the cost of the powers because it will periodically deny him access to them. This is the exact opposite of paying for the special effect. Shapeshift in 5e is the _third_ way to shapeshift-- which is why I got stuck on the word "redundant"-- and the first time you have to pay for a special effect, ever. The wierd thing as that it is "doubly redundant." The same book that gives us this newly-codified version of Shapeshift the Power (remember that a power of this same,name,appeared,in Champions III) also gave us.... I _want_ to say Penalty Skill Levels, but I am not certain that wis right as I have just concluded a thirty-hour bike ride, so I am a bit punchy. At any rate, I mean a codified mechanic for being able to force penalties onto another character's rolls. This book also reminds us via direct statement that Mulitiform allows the character to change his form without without buying shapeshift. Good thing, too, because between buying shapeshift via sense group and costing it depending on targeting v non targeting senses, one could easily spend ninety points and still not one-hundred-percent be shape shifted under the current rules. Make you Mind Scan or Spatial Awareness discriminatory and targeting, and hey look! There he is! I put those same 90 points into forced penalites agains PER rolls to identify me as The Clayminator, and I end up with much better odds of not being found out. The proposed shapeshift build for false tracks needs to appeal to sight, scent, and touch at a minimum. Problematically, it also needs to apply to something that is not you, which the rules don't allow. They go further to suggest that usable against others / as attack / what have you not be allowed to use this power (or Multiform) to change the shape /form of anything but yourself. Let me be clear: anyone wanting to ignore this rule has my full personal support, as I feel it is an objectively bad designed to continue to prop up the "can't T-form yourself" rule. Well, I find the entirje ShapeShift as a sepaprate power rule to be- not bad, so much as not necessary. The fact that it goes so far to pin itself as a deception of the sense groups (ie, perception penalties) and then having ladders (after that) to define how your body actually shanges, etc... You spend a like points before you get to spend the points that make you actually change. You are paying way too much for forced penalties, then buying your SFX on top of that. It's a bad set of rules, but it's following proves that it is not objectively bad, so I dont bag on the rules themselves much, just their "necessity." At any rate, even if you ignore the self only, ever aspect of shapeshift so that you cast it on your tracks as opposed to your feet and scent and whatever bits of you affect your mass, gait, and number of legs, for this build, you going to do better- I think; obviously, this isn't objective, either- to use anything else. If you cant ignore shapeshift's self-only mandate, then you _have_ to use something else. Since the ultimate goal is to make the use of a particular skill more difficult to use, I stand by forced penalties. Since CE has an area effect built in, can be used at range (allowing the caster to move away from the affected are while maintaining the effect) _and_ allows for forcing penalties, it seems like a natural choice. With T-form, we have to add range and an AoE. With SS, we have to build it, add range, add an AoE, and ignore a very specific rule. Sorry for the delayed reply, but it was _perfect_ motorcycle weather this weekend; I cancelled _everything_ and hit the road: warm sun, cool air, and enough wind to fly an iron kite. Love it!

GoTG?

Agreed. I am not going to disagree based on your own example. The ocean isn't using Transform; those footprints arent going to heal back, and the "relatively common" or simple solution to heal them,back,insfqntly is to comb the crowds of tourists, find th3 guy that keft them, and xonvince him to walk the exact same,walk,and step the exact same steps. I feelcshapeshift is right out because (while I personally find its existence redundant) everything,in the descriptions of shapeshift from,Champions III up until 6e demonstrates that Shapeshift is something you do to yourself- if you are not ignoring the 'cannot T-form yourself' rule, then shapeshift is the power to fill that hole- or it was, until 5e got wierd with it. So it is only shaoeshift if the footprints are using the power, and are using it on themselves. One hundred percebt sgree6! I think. J should have been in bed an hour ago, but the kids just had their first experience with seeing a sequel they waited years for, and are too jazzed to hush and let me rest. I am qhite punch drunk at the moment.

Agreed completely. I actually do a hierarchy thing, defering to older powers first. Only when I cannot find a way to do a thing with older powers (which is a lot oess often than folks seem to think) do I mive up to the next edition, I keep in in this way until I find the most perfect thing (for me, anyway), and stop there. I realize that this isn't helpful to anyone new to the game, but the habit is yet anither reason I haven't mkved begin 2e more than snagging a few elements here and there.

Yep. What he said. As an anecdote, we had a visiting receiver make a dive for a bad pass. One of our guys slid knees down _under_ him aa he caught the ball then caught the receiver like he was carrying away his new bride. Refs downed yhe play right there. Even though the guy wasn't tackled or even being restrained. He just could not keep his feet and move forward.

It would. But hey, it's nice to have a new player! Short version: there is a long history of the bulk of the grognards dismissing change environment as inappropriate for doing something like changing the environment. To be fair, most of this started after the introduction of Transformation Attack and let's face it: with T-form, you _can_ change the environment. Conversely, none of them will suggest using Transformation Attack as an alternative to Energy Blast, even though all Energy Blast is doing is transforming your target from undamaged to damaged, right? There is a subtle triple standard around Transformation Attack that has been repeated and accepted for so long that it has been given a legitimacy that it never actually deserved. I have a hypothesis that one of the reasons Change Environment is p'shawed so regularly is that it doesn't provide movement or provide defenses or do damage, and is therefore "unworthy." It's just a hypothesis, never tested (and never should be, lest we risk arguments and hurt feelings that we don't need. Really, all I have to go on is the general trend of someone recommending it and the recommendation being shot down in favor of something with a combat mechanic. Really, the last two rules sets have stated outright that Change Environment cannot be used to add light to the environment (and out of all the 5e and 6e rules that I absolutely ignore, I ignore that one far more joyously than all the others combined)). Let's look at what change environment can do: it can add or remove gravity- it can _reverse_ gravity! Houses uprooted and falling into the sky! It can create not just fog, but absolute typhoons and monsoons and roof-removing winds and toad-choking rains. It can purify radiation zones or increase the background radiation to deadly levels, turn a jungle to a desert then turn around and create an oasis. The whole "but it has no combat effectiveness and is therefore not the right power" mindset is so deeply-ingrained that the last couple of rules sets added rules to govern just how change environment can effect combat and skill rolls (because before that the GM had to make a call, and that sort of thing- normal in almost every other RPG- is complete anathema to the typical HERO grognard.) I don't say these things insultingly- I am an old HERO grognard myself, and set on my own overzealous and equally-poorly-thought-out opinions; I just have a lot of odd-man-out observations (most of which have left me never finding a compelling reason to move beyond 2e.) Hell, the biggest thing I like about this place is the general civility with which differences of opinion are generally discussed. At any rate- if CE can reverse gravity and purify radiation and cutse or bless or sanctify entire tracts of the countryside..... Well, the idea that it _can't_ do something simple like disturb some soil and a branch or two to create a false path is kind of funny. The best part is this: Because the newer rules specifically address how to assign a Skill Roll Penalty specifically to Change Environment, and because CE has a built-in Area of Effect, it is _the_ power for this. It gets more interesting, though: A "trail" is part of the special effects of your movement power. If you fly, you don't leave a lot of footprints-- if I am not mistaken, there is a version of Flight built _specifically_ to simulate walking without leaving a trail in some or other ninja book (not giving a rat's roll red rump about martial arts and magic ninjas is one of those overzealous opinionations of mine. Sorry. ). But I was saying that CE is ideal for this-- HERO divorces SFX from mechanics. Varting editions do a better or worse job of that with varying individual mechanics and powers in much the same,way that we GMs do better or worse at some aspect of it than do other GMs, and this is cool; we are just as human and fallible as are all the authors that have ever written for this game. That is the biggest reason that I love the discussions of differing opinions that occur here. We get a chance to see new ideas, to help someone see something differently, or to be helped ourselves (or even in spite of ourselves). Change Environment has been codified as a power that can be used to pin penalties to skill rolls, and its nature is changing the environment in some way that is either (or both) beneficial to you or disadvantageous to your opponent. You can assign a penalty to a tracking roll via Change Environment. That is essentially a third mechanic assigned to range and area mechanics. You have to selecr a special effect for every mechanic ("power" ) that you buy. In rhis case, that special effect is the appearance of a false trail, and possibly some occlusion of the real trail. Those folks telling you that you cannot have this special effect with your power are telling you that you cannot have this special effect, period, in spite of the fact that you _can_ have this mechanic. They are not objecting to you using Change Environment to force a tracking penalty on your pursuers; they can't object to that because the rules specifically state that you _can_ do that very thing. That means the only objection they can have is to your special effect (which is ultimately between you and your GM), which in this case suggests that the objection is that you are using Change Environment to make a small change to your environment. And if you just skipped all the way down here hoping for a summation: Ir can. This is exactly what Change Environment does, and the last two editions have made it more specifically perfect for this sort of thing than it ever has been before. Ultimately though, no matter who thinks what, all we can do is be a sounding board. A player will take the idea _he_ finds most pleasing, pitch it to his GM, and they will work something out from there without any regard for which of us feels how on the subject.