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16 hours ago, Killer Shrike said:

As the reason why I started this post in the first place was to understand what's behind the vitriol of the trend towards anti-6e commentary I had noticed, when in my mind I think of "6e" as the actual rules themselves, absent other considerations, I think your post might offer a clue that some of the disgruntlement and harshitude in the mix vis-a-vis 6e is fueled or amplified by some people's unhappiness with the decline of the game in the marketplace in the 6e era rather than purely a dislike of the 6e rules themselves. So whether you care or not, I appreciate your post; it has given me a clue towards better understanding the prevailing attitudes.

 

I first started playing Champions/Hero System with 3rd Edition in the late 1980s and over the years collected earlier edition books followed by 4th, 5th, and 6th Edition. In terms of 6th Edition products, I have Champions Complete, Hero Basic, and Champions. Am not sure if there is an overall reason why 6e is disliked, but here are two observations for your consideration that I gathered from my own experience as a customer and from talking with the dozen or so players/fans I meet in game conventions over the years when I run Champions:

1) In terms of style and graphic design, Champions 6th Edition products seem dated compared to other superhero game systems. Champions Complete's cover and interior b&w art was average and the soft-cover binding was okay, but previewing it next to other games like Mutants & Masterminds, Icons, or even Savage Worlds: Supers on the display rack, there was a distinct different in quality in terms of style. While some in this forum liked the textbook design for the 6th Edition rule book covers, the fans I spoke to in person didn't care for it (myself included). People still do judge a book by its cover to see if it's even worth previewing or passing on it outright.

2) The amount of rules made it difficult to introduce new players to Hero System. I had Hero Basic, but others had saw how many other rule books there were to get started for 6th Edition and were immediately turned off. A common occurrence was that the players had previously played Champions until <insert edition number here> for one reason or another but then stopped, most commonly due to the excessive rules being piled on in later editions.  The Champions Now kickstarter is drawing upon 3rd Edition or early rules for various reasons, drawing a mix of support and criticism of Hero Games senior staff being out-of-touch as to what their fans want as mentioned in other discussions. Even now, my go-to system of superhero games for brand-new players has been Icons and not Champions, and that's even with simplified versions of characters that I created (4th Edition versions). 

People who still play Champions/Hero System are going to choose their favorite edition and pull aspects from others accordingly to round out their campaign. It's unrealistic to convince them which is better than the other (or vice versa) in terms of game mechanics. Some like the simplicity of 3rd Edition and earlier (hence, Champions Now that's under development), some like the completeness of 4th Edition (BBB with George Perez cover art), others like the detailed comprehensiveness of 5th Edition (sourcebooks are extremely well done), and others like the new mechanics of 6th Edition (e.g. no "freebies" from Figured Characteristics).

On 1/30/2019 at 7:50 AM, Doc Democracy said:

I'm up for re-classification.  I have broken things into four groups, the first impacts on the starting rolls for skills, the second is all about acting/reacting and how effective that might be, the third is about the condition of the character and the last is outside combat because those numbers are routinely advantaged in some way where other numbers are not.

 

Characteristics = STR, DEX, CON, INT, EGO and PRE

 

Combat numbers = OCV, DCV, OMCV, DMCV, SPD

 

Health indicators = STUN, BODY, END, REC

 

Defence numbers = PD, ED, PowD, Mental D, Flash D (all potentially advantaged with resistant, hardened etc).

 

You think breaking them up into groups like this would help in presentation terms?

I've been playing Champions/Hero System for years and never considered presenting the information that way and was using templates that I created from the character sheet model provided in the books. What you presented makes great sense, especially when I introduce Champions to new players who might get overwhelmed by seeing all the stats in one long list as portrayed in current character sheets. 

Thanks! I'm definitely modifying my character sheets based on your idea!!! 

Many years ago I picked up what would later become known as Champions: The New Millennium (C:TNM) 1st Edition. Similar to what many fans mentioned in previous posts, I was confused at first and wasn't sure what new direction Champions was going or if that was Fifth Edition going forward using the Fuzion game mechanics. Within a year of owning the book, I passed it on to someone else. I would later come across Champions: The New Millennium 2nd Edition which had incorporated more Fuzion game mechanics in addition to conversions to 4th Edition Hero System. My guess would be that it was in response to fan feedback. 

I just recently purchased a copy of C:TNM off the clearance rack of my local game store for the nostalgia and after re-reading it again after going through later editions, I gained a better appreciation of it based on some observations that could best be framed as, 'the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.'

The Good

• It's a standalone book that contains everything you need for character creation, combat, powers, etc. The starting universe provided is well-resource.  It's really nice having Grond, Mechanon, and Dr. Destroyer with complete stats in the same book for both Fuzion and Hero System.
• The rules for vehicles and mecha combat incorporated from the Fuzion system are interesting.
• The artwork is impressive, cover to cover. The art style reminds me of Jim Lee and Michael Turner, who I am fans of. Hopefully Champions Now will be as visually stylish and not another Fantasy Hero Complete in terms of graphic design.

The Bad

• Fonts are kind of small, no doubt to reduce costs and fit everything in the neat, compact book.
• I never really got used to the Fuzion game mechanics, nor did the players, so we went back to Hero System 4th Edition rules after a few playtests.

The Ugly

• The cover and binding are delicate and fragile. I may have to laminate this book myself like they do at the public library with old paperback books otherwise it'll fall apart after I read it again.
• The backstory that killed off the original Champions Universe was a let-down. Of all the names for an epic villain the writers could have thought up of that caused the demise of two or three generations worth of heroes and villains, was 'the Proprietor' the best they could do?

Anyway, it's a book to consider if you're an eclectic Champions collector like I am to round out your collection.

On 6/30/2018 at 7:05 PM, Brian Stanfield said:

I don't want to repeat myself too much, but I'm really disappointed that a lot of people expressed a desire to develop a rules-light version of Champions in order to introduce it to new people, but were shut down without any discussion. Yet now we're getting that very thing, but with an outdated version of the rules. Will it help HERO? Maybe. But it may only be an OSR nostalgia piece with no extended support, which only adds to the woes of HERO seeming outdated and falling behind that times. 

I didn't pick up on this comment until much more recently. Would Champions: The New Millennium, that came out in the 1990s in that short partnership between Hero Games and R. Talsorian Games count as a "rules-light" version of Champions? I remember briefly owning it and from my playing experience, the rules were simplified to make the Hero System to fit the Fuzion Games system for character creation, powers, and so on. I also remember reading about confusion in various fan forums on whether or not Champions: The New Millennium was its Fifth Edition or not (it wasn't, as Fifth Edition came out a few years later).

I share the same disappointment in that the development of a rules-light version Champions wasn't even discussed for consideration. In general, when I'm introducing the superhero RPG to brand-new players, my go-to system has been Icons: The Assembled Edition as a result. Although I occasionally get brand-new players when I run Champions at game conventions, the majority of the participants have been players who, "played it for several years then stopped after <insert edition number here>" and wanted to play for the nostalgia.

"HERO seeming outdated and falling behind the times"... I thought that I was alone in that sentiment when I compare Champions to Mutants and Masterminds, Icons, or even the Super Powers Companion for Savage Worlds. Guess not...

22 minutes ago, assault said:

 

Except it isn't. It's the full 6e rules, including the irrelevant bits. Mostly it is missing the massive quantity of examples, apart from a few things that seem to really annoy people. (See zslane's comment.)

When I read the game mechanics portion of Champions Complete(CC) and compared it Hero Basic 6th Edition, it seemed comparable. I don't have Hero System 6th Edition Volumes I and II as a comparison reference to see if CC was the full 6e rules set without the examples as you described or not, but if you do, then I'll take your word for it.

It wouldn't be the first (or last) time I misinterpreted what was advertised and what was delivered as a product.

8 hours ago, dsatow said:

I personally like the CC book.  It most reminds me of 4th ed but with the current rules.  I think HERO is cursed with the 3 steps forward 2 steps back with each edition.

From my understanding, the intent of Champions Complete was to be like the "Big Blue Book" was for 4th Edition where it provided you a stand-alone RPG system for the superhero genre. Essentially, it is Hero Basic 6th Edition with an abridged version of Champions as a sourcebook to help you design your campaign.

You might be onto something with HERO being afflicted with the "3 steps forward and 2 steps back" syndrome you describe. For example, while 5th Edition had great cover and interior design art that supported extremely well-written sourcebooks that provided great context and background material, the giant tome of rules was a major turnoff (thank goodness for Hero Sidekick ?).

1 hour ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

Are all your sessions the same?

No, they are three different scenarios with different sets of villains and foes. The only common element is that they are designed to allow players from DC/Marvel/Extended Universe to crossover and play simultaneously. 

The recent discussion in a different posting about the Champions Now Kickstarter project made me think back to my Hero System/Champions experiences than spans over 30 years. Even though my first superhero RPG was Villains & Vigilantes by Fantasy Games Unlimited, when I first received Champions 3rd Edition as a gift, I became a lifelong fan and collector, to include the various comic issues published at one point by Eclipse Comics that featured Marksman, Flare, and so on.

In addition to owning/playing Champions, I also owned/played DC Heroes by Mayfair Games (1st and 3rd Edition), Silver Age Sentinels (Tri-Stat and d20 versions), Mutants and Masterminds and later Icons (both original and The Assembled Edition) by Green Ronin Press, Heroes Unlimited by Palladium Books, along with independent titles like Prowlers & Paragons, Invulnerable, Supergame, and Guardians. In the end, though, I always found myself going back to Champions.

While I really enjoyed 3rd and 4th edition, by the early 2000s those books seemed dated when compared to other superhero games being released like Silver Age Sentinels, Mutant and Masterminds, and Aberrant. Also, the binding started wearing out, as these books were not as durable as the other books that I had (e.g. Robotech RPG series and source books by Palladium).

When the 5th Edition Hero System came out, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. While the source books were well-designed and styled, the "Big Black Book" and later Fifth Revised Edition (FREd) that consisted of over 300+ and later 500+ pages of rules respectively, were a major turnoff. I would not become aware of the Hero Sidekick (Hero Basic 5th Edition) for several more years (it wasn't carried at my local game store). Years later, when I saw Hero System 6th Edition in its "college textbook" design with volumes that totaled over 600 pages of rules next to the latest version of Mutants and Masterminds and related source books published by Green Ronin, I couldn't help but wonder, "What was Hero Games thinking!?" After speaking with other fans about 6th Edition over the years, a common reaction was that 6th Edition seemed more like an exercise of writer's self-indulgence that did not significantly improve the system. Not surprisingly, this was followed by disparaging remarks about the senior staff at Hero Games.

Dungeons & Dragons is a similar situation where it is a long-standing game system with multiple editions. In recent years, Wizards of the Coast has made all of the Dungeons & Dragons editions available. I have relatives, friends, and colleagues who have collected the latest edition (5th) to add to their game collection while still actively playing their favorite previous edition in their respective gaming groups. Some like the "old school flair" of 2nd edition, others like 4th, and still others like the current edition. A common question that has come up has been, "Which edition of D&D is your favorite?"

So, with that in mind, "What's your favorite edition of the Hero System/Champions?"

20 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

Keep me posted on this. Let me know when the event happens because I can make it to Omaha pretty easily, and finding Champions at a convention is a pretty rare thing these days.

Nuke Con is scheduled for Friday, October 5 to Sunday, October 7, 2018 here in Omaha. The location is at the Ramada Plaza Hotel at 3321 S. 72nd St, Omaha, NE 68124.  Registration is open and the website is www dot nuke-con dot com.

I'm scheduled to run Champions on Saturday, October 6th at 9:00 AM, 1:30 PM, at 4:30 PM.

The convention was PretzCon held here in Omaha, NE, this past May. I ran Champions and Icons: The Assembled Edition and am typically the only one who runs superhero RPGs during these events (most RPG players participate in D&D, Pathfinder, and Shadowrun). The next event is NukeCon this fall where I will be running Champions exclusively since I've retired my Icons campaign due to limited player interest.

On 8/19/2018 at 8:56 AM, Brian Stanfield said:

Every new thing seems more like a look backwards rather than ahead.

Given how extensive the Hero System 6th Edition rules set is (unless you only use Hero Basic) and 5th Edition a.k.a. Fifth Revised Edition (FREd) was, am not as surprised as I thought that fans, players, GMs, and even writers are looking backwards towards earlier editions like 4th and 3rd. In my most recent game convention experience, I found myself using 4th and 3rd Edition rules more to create the Pre-Gen characters for players to use at the Champions table I ran over 5th and 6th Edition. Given that close to half of the players participating at my table hadn't played Champions before, using the simpler rules set paid off significantly, enabling them to play and have a lot of fun without being overly confused by the rules.

On 8/19/2018 at 8:58 AM, Brian Stanfield said:

 

I'm leaning in the same direction. Having talked to Ron a bit, and done a video with him (there are a whole series of videos on YouTube, and he does one with our Chris Goodwin as well), I'm getting a feel for what he's doing, and am excited by it. But my big question (which I'm trying to ask him in a new video if he's game) is why we need to go back to 3rd edition rules rather than make the 6e rules more accessible? He could do what he is working towards with the 6e rules, but he is also biased against universal systems, so he is really doing a sort of "old school renaissance" approach with Champions Now.

Hopefully, you will get the answer from him. In the meantime, I'm a firm believer of Occam's Razor where the simpler explanation of an occurrence is usually the better. With that in mind, a reasonable explanation would be that he's using 3e rules because that's the one he's most familiar with, so it would be the best for him to adapt from it. Champions 3e was arguably the most complete of the early rules systems while not being too rules heavy (e.g. 5th Edition).

6 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

That's a really good point. When I talked to Jason at Origins he was a bit flabbergasted by the fan reaction on the HERO games website. I don't think that the "powers that be" understand how frustrated we have gotten with the apparent stall in the HERO System. Every new thing seems more like a look backwards rather than ahead. Did we really need a Champions Complete? Or even worse, a sub-par Fantasy Hero Complete? They are so aesthetically deficient they couldn't possibly have been designed to be competitive in the brick-and-mortar marketplace. So what exactly are they?

You bring up some very insightful observations. If the aforementioned shocked reaction you describe is across the Hero Games senior staff, then it may be more indicative of a problem that is often observed in long-standing works such as novel series, television shows, films, and of course, game books. The problem is that the senior staff suffers some combination of being out-of-touch with what their fans/customers want, complacency to where they believe their own work requires no significant vetting, editing, or revision, or perhaps even an unwillingness to bring in new talent to explore new ideas.

Was Champions Complete necessary? Given how unwieldy the Hero System 6th Edition rules were and that the company was not printing more copies of Hero Basic 6th Edition, the answer is definitely yes. From a style and design perspective, could it have been better? Again, absolutely yes.

Was Fantasy Hero Complete necessary? Yes, since the intent seemed to be Hero Basic 6th Edition with a fantasy sourcebook as a stand-alone game. Did it have to be sub-par? No.

Am equally puzzled regarding the poor aesthetic design and layouts from Champions Complete and Fantasy Hero Complete, especially since previous source book editions for 5th and 6th were exceptionally well done, even with grayscale interior art. ?

At least Hero Games is making previous editions available on PDF for fans to select and use based on preference. ?

9 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

This may have been misspoken on my part, but so far there is almost no artwork in his test document, but it's just an alpha copy so probably is no indication as to whether there will be artwork. I suspect that he's got a lot of art to work with, so I doubt the final version will be artless. But it's hard to tell from a rough working draft. Check it out and see for yourself: http://adeptplay.com/sites/default/files/Champions Now playtest.pdf

Thanks for the link. I did a precursory look at the rough draft and it's definitely something with a lot of refinement ahead of it across game mechanics (substance) and style (graphics and layout) if it's going to meet its desired intent and not look like something that recycled existing ideas poorly and attempts to pass itself off as something new and better.

1 hour ago, Brian Stanfield said:

I've been talking to Ron Edwards, the guy who is doing Champions Now, and his goal isn't to revitalize the older editions. He's instead trying to apply emergent story theory in an easy to digest Champions 3e format. There may not be any artwork at all, I'm really not sure.

I must have misinterpreted what was written on an earlier post, "Why Now Champions Now?" that read, "And, finally, four: get new players to try the Hero System, and old ones who have moved on to other games to come back and try it again. This last part is the important one to Champions Now: I wanted to publish a product that would simultaneously interest some older players, while encouraging the generally younger fans who purchase books from Indie Press Revolution to give a form of Champions a try."

From my understanding, the project was drawing from 1st, 2nd and 3rd Editions into something to interest new players to try it and current and former Champions players to collect it. So again, it was misinterpretation on my part.

The idea of a game book with no internal artwork, or even cover art, is somewhat disturbing, especially for the superhero genre. As a longtime Champions fan and collector, the last thing I would want to collect is a book that reads like a dry textbook....but then again, even textbooks have diagrams and images to illustrate its concepts.

On 8/9/2018 at 4:41 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

I think Star Hero would be more likely but considering that Fantasy Hero Complete I think didn’t do so well, I think it’s highly unlikely.

As someone who had Fantasy Hero Complete at one point, the finished product was not that impressive, so you're probably correct in the idea that it didn't fare that well in terms of sales. The graphic design and interior art were disappointing to where they were major detractors that resulted in various negative comments being posted about it in game forums. The Fantasy Hero 6th Edition source book had a beautiful design and unique font-styled titled, yet Fantasy Hero Complete had a generic font title with cover art that was confusing (attempt at satire, maybe?) and was a significant step backwards from both 6th and 5th Edition Fantasy Hero source books.

A concern I have is the latest Kickstarter project, Champions Now, intended to re-energize 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Editions of Champions, will result in something as graphically regrettable as Fantasy Hero Complete was cover to cover, further reducing the chances of a quality Star Hero Complete being produced later due to lackluster sales.

Hopefully, this Kickstarter project will prove successful in publishing a first-rate product that attracts new players and is something that longtime Champions players will want to add to their collection. At $20K, it's a pretty modest project and a concern is that the cover and interior artwork would be subpar. Mighty Protectors: Villains & Vigilantes 3.0 was a recent Kickstarter that resulted in a great product by Jeff Dee and Jack Herman; despite raising over $1 million, Palladium Books' Kickstarter for Robotech RPG Tactics was a disaster.

Here's hoping for the former and not the latter!

Your character designs using Hero Machine 3 are AMAZING! It was great nostalgia seeing various Champions characters from across the various editions brought to full-color life again through the character art.

Thanks for sharing them with all of us! ?

An option for consideration until print-on-demand gets resolved is to have the pdf file commercially printed and bound at a printer service like Office Depot or Staples. Granted, you're "paying twice" since you initially paid for the pdf file and then a second time for the printing, which can get expensive, but it's still an option.

A long while back I had one of the out-of-print Champions books reprinted and it was nice having it ring bound since I was able to open to the desired page while laying it flat on a surface to take notes without having the book close on itself like a traditional soft-cover book.