PhilFleischmann

If the GM says the moon is made of green cheese, then the moon is made of green cheese.  The real moon that orbits our real world has nothing to do with the fictitious moon (or moons) that may orbit the fictitious fantasy world that we base our games in, or write novels about, or watch movies about.
 
The players also know that there's no such thing as magic, or dragons, or superheroes, or FTL travel.
 
... absolutely nothing about the fictitious fantasy worlds that we base our games in, or write novels about, or watch movies about.
 
Although I should mention, that I've been greatly enjoying your added details to the TA setting.

That reminds me:  I've also read a lot of Greek and Norse mythology, and a little Egyptian (and a tad of Babylonian/Mesopotamian/Sumerian, and Hawaiian).
 
And also there were a lot of fantasy (and sci-fi) short stories in Dragon magazine, back in the 80's - most were not specifically based on D&D-specific things.

THIS!  So much this!  Ancient polytheistic religions were not organized like medieval Christianity.  And their places of worship were not called "cathedrals" or "churches" AFAIK.
 
I like the standard fantasy races:  elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes.  However:
 
* I really don't like the D&D proliferation of "subraces".  I don't want a half-dozen different types of elves.  Or any other race.  This does not serve any purpose in a game that isn't already served by having different races, nations, and cultures.  Any story arc involving the differences between Valley Elves and Dale Elves can just as easily be done between Elves and Humans, or between Elves of Northern Vithnaklia, and Elves of Southern Vithnaklia.
 
* And speaking of races, there is no need for each race to have it's own "dark" "evil" subrace.  We already have evil races: Orcs, Goblins, Trolls, or whatever else.  (I've never found Drow Elves to be at all an impressive idea, despite how proud of them the deendee folks are.  And I never saw any definitive answer as to whether it rhymes with "blow" or with "cow".)
 
* And speaking a little more of races, I also never liked another thing in D&D that I call, "The Star Trek School of Reproductive Biology" - that any two races can make a cross-breed, and that cross-breed constitutes an entire separate race.  That any two sentient creatures can have sex and make a viable offspring.  And if the father has pointed ears and the mother has forehead ridges, then the child will have pointed ears and forehead ridges.
 
It's as if the D&D plan was that no two PCs would ever be the same race.

I don't remember precisely, but I think I read the Narnia series (all except the last one), before I ever read The Hobbit.  LotR came somewhat later, and then I tried reading the Silmarillion, and didn't get through it until fairly recently, when I listened to an audiobook.  But several years ago, I read one of the Fafhrd & Grey Mouser books.  There were probably a few others, but as much as I enjoy the fantasy genre, I haven't read all that many fantasy novels.  I've read more science fiction.  Most of my fantasy exposure has been in movies.
 
And one other bit of fantasy source material deserves mention:  The Book of Weird by Barbara N. Byfield.  It's not a story, though, but a "lexicon of the fantastical".
 
Oh, I just thought of one other:  Pile, by Brian W. Aldiss, a beautifully illustrated epic poem.

In a way, the superhero genre is almost impossible to "ruin" in these kinds of ways, because it freely incorporates every other genre.  Magic, monsters, super-future technology, aliens, ghosts/vampires/zombies/horror stuff, western gunslingers, martial artists, ninjas, superspies, conspiracies, "mecha"...  I can't think of anything that would seem "out of genre" for a superhero game.  But the same does not hold true for fantasy, or many pother genres, at least for me.

I'm not sold that the goal was, or should be, significant differences between our Powered by Hero game and the Hero rules.  This is doubly so with Brian's stated goal to get them interested enough in the source code to buy the Hero System.
 
 
This makes sense to me, as it only pares away some of the Teleport rules, but does not change them.  Making movement "per turn divided by SPD" means a major disconnect when our Action Hero group buys the 2 volumes of source code.
 
 
Sure.  Because it is a staple of horror movies that the solution to a ghost is a bigger gun.  I have an even easier answer for Action Hero - it does not need Desolid at all.
 
Let me suggest what was actually stupid.  The stupid GM reading the character sheet, seeing the description Immune to Fire with the desolid build, stupidly not discussing that build with the player, but rather letting him pay the points for a build the GM considered  not to achieve the desired result, then even more stupidly building an adversary specifically to override the player's concept. 
 
NOTE:  I am charitably assuming stupidity here.  It could be that the GM is not stupid, but is instead deliberately setting out to show the player who the boss is, and you don't get to rely on your character concept working as planned, or me telling you I am going to override your concept, in advance.  That's a different type of stupid most commonly described with reference to the end result of the digestive system.
 
Worse, the player is likely to blame the failure to obtain "the character he imagined" as a failing of the Hero System, not an incompetent or adversarial GM.
 
To a lot of the other elements, I think we can easily remove AP, Penetrating, Hardened, etc.  Not so gung ho about merging PD and ED.  Removal of martial arts?  No issue.  Making them "something else"?  Less enthusiastic.
 
That's not to say we could not redesign elements for our "Powered by Hero Game", but that it's not a great idea if the goal is to draw them into the big overall system.  If we are making that kind of major change, it also needs a sidebar or similar to tell experienced Hero gamers we're deviating from the standard.  One of the biggest Champions competitors did a great job modifying the whole d20 damage system, so massive changes can work.  But recognize that they are massive changes which will create compatability issues with the Hero System overall.

Another thing that ruins immersion for me, is that when a fantasy world goes into space, it's 18th century space, with wooden galleons, and phlogiston and ether, and I'm looking at you Spelljammer.  I want big metal Star Wars and Star Trek ships, with spherical planets that revolve around incandescent balls of gas.  Optional but recommended are mana batteries, life support spells, FTL spells, magical lasers, &c.
 

Related to Hermit's statement on religion, I think that his argument can be broadened to differences in station in general.  I might not hold serving people in especially low regard or the well-to-do in high regard.  I judge people equally regardless of station, but I was raised that way, but that is not how I would have been raised in medieval Europe where everyone was expected to live according to their station whether they liked it or not.  So, I find it jarring when I see a character talking smack to noblemen in general conversation without having their heads summarily removed.  Admittedly, enforcing those kind of standards with modern players presents its own issues beyond mere story writing.

Gods, Religions, and Religious institutions as unimportant and lacking any power or purpose save as healing shops.
It's such a waste of material to use it that way. And it often throws me off. Even if the gods don't feel chatty, religious leaders can still exert enough influence and power to hobble or raise up rulers, they can direct codes as strong as any secular set of laws. And, unless one is speaking of 'chaching, the God of #$#You, Payme!', their entire purpose should never be confined to just taking gold and then curing that STD you got at Madame Stonegate's House of Dwarven pleasures.
 
Not meaning any disrespect to anyone who follows Chaching
 
And I always appreciate when the not priestly types still have a spiritual side, and pay a bit of respect to the gods. NPCs who are farmers, bartenders, or the like who tip their hat to the local holy man, or pray for good weather etc are small touches, but it shows off nicely. Heck, even creative ways of using a god's name in anger can reflect wel. But when a fantasy village seems to be entirely secular to a man, unless there's an in setting reason, it kind of jars me a bit. I don't expect Hozanas and Psalms all the time, but the idea of "Who do these god people think they are anyway?" Should not be the norm unless you're going for a Monty python skit
 
 
But that's just me.. just sort of makes me roll my eyes and disrupts my immersion a bit.
 
 

What I want most out of a setting is internal consistency.  Basically, the physics and metaphysics of the universe should be true and the same throughout the entire story.  If the physics and metaphysics are thrown together haphazardly or changes from scene to scene without an internal explanation, that throws me off.
 
Regarding the use of anachronisms in storytelling, I am mixed and it strongly depends on how it is used.  There are many great and engrossing works of literature and cinema that are chock full of anachronisms.  Some times, the anachronisms are intended.  Sometimes, they are not.  Either way, the stories still maintain immersion throughout.  Regarding the use of anachronistic language in literature and anachronistic fashion sense in cinema, a story writer has to write and dress his stories in order to maintain the attention of the intended audience.  I've had literature classes in college, and I read at a high level, but sometimes, even the references from an American novel from only a century ago can be unapproachable without good annotation while the original English used by Chaucer might as well be a foreign language to most readers.  You have to write in a language and vocabulary sense of the intended audience.  Take the mesmer issue as an example.  I know what the word implies.  It has an oldish sound.  And, the fact that the word would not exist in the period in which it was used is not off-putting to me.
 
A similar problem can be had of fashion sense.  Some of the fashion sense of our ancestors would be shocking to us today if we weren't expecting it and could distract a potential audience from the actual story; so, you might get the clothes and hairstyles close to what the audience would it expect them to be even if it is not accurate to what they are supposed to be.  For example, if you want a certain character to considered attractive by an audience, you will want the looking attractive based on the biases of the audience and not to the biases of the people that lived in the time and place that the story is set.
 
What does throw me off is an excessive use of slang and pop culture references, especially as I get older and stay up with slang and pop culture less and less.  Okay, they work in comedy when I actually understand the reference.  Two examples where the use of slang and pop culture references are the Naked Gun movies and The Knight's Tale.
 
In regards regards Naked Gun, I loved the movies when they came.  The humor is right up my alley.  I saw the trilogy on sale at Walmart for real cheap; so, I bought them.  I still enjoyed a lot of the humor, but I really had to think back to get a lot of the pop culture jokes.  I'm over 50.  I was still a young man when the movie came out and was still active in staying up with pop culture.  I wonder if some guy in his 20s now would even have a chance at getting many of the jokes.
 
Then there's The Knight's Tale, I wanted to like this movie and I genuinely tried, but ultimately, I didn't.  The anachronisms and cultural references were just too jarring for me.  First, I was starting to lose my interest in pop culture; so, the pop culture was not endearing to me, and it's use of anachronism was so haphazard that it left me feeling like it didn't know what kind of movie it wanted to be, and that's a shame, because I kind of liked the actual story.

It's Steam Punk, but with magic and D&D creatures, and Industrial magic, and "air ships", with floating hulls and sails. Steampunk for me is a turn off, because I do like Victorian Steam. I do not like uneducated, style over substance, Pseudo-victorian steam.
 
 
 Awwww man, I love maps.  But I do get your point. However seafaring maps, and Roman Ground maps were different things and Roman Maps, like what the PCs would get a hold of, would look like the London Tube poster or map with lines and vague directions and "times" to various stops on the road.

Thank you for clarifying.  You may be right.  I still think that only being able to place the trigger on one item is worth a limitation, even if it's only -1/4.  The multipower construct you described above also works.  The only question is whether the cost is appropriate.  It seemed at first that buying these "fixed targets" with UAA Teleport similarly to how you buy Fixed Locations was an appropriate cost.  But I certainly could be mistaken about that.  I suppose it is comparable to buying off the Focus Limitation for a power, but UAA is already pretty expensive, and Teleport has a maximum range, whereas "not having a focus: does not have a range.
 
If I have a power through an item with no Focus limitation, someone can steal the item and take it to another galaxy, and I still get it back when I want it.  With the Teleport UAA method (regardless of whether you use Trigger or "Fixed Targets"), it the item is out of range, you don't get it back.  Then the question is, how often is the McGuffin going to be farther away than the Teleport Range?

For me, I like my fantasy* games to not have:

1. Guns, grenades, and just about anything that explodes.  I consider Alchemical Fire to not be an explosive, but a flammable - like oil but moreso.
2. "Tech" - Gnomish mechanical contraptions are generally ok, but the less mechanical (while being more complex) it is the more it smells like "tech" to me.
3. Real-world politics - I game to get away from that crap (I don't like it in any game, to be honest).
4. Steam powered anything.
5. Mass transit.

*Fantasy as in "sword and sorcery" games.  Which is why I consider Gamma World to be Sci-Fi and not Fantasy.

Don't forget Ninjas who just show up even thought Japan in no where near the setting of the campaign.

Why do the horses get singled out?  Most fantasy games also feature:
 
 - armor, weaponry and other gear than never needs cleaning or maintenance;
 - you can just buy arrows and other weapons anywhere (clothes for that matter);
 - all people are entitled to bear arms;
 - no issues with food quality or hygiene (that wasn't just horse pee and poop in the road);
ad infinitum
 
We gloss over a lot of the unpleasant realities of history when we game.

In my setting, any dwarf younger than 30 years old you'd look at and say "That's a hobbit." As they age they become denser and denser, until finally in their late 300's they finally become entirely stone. These statues called Elderstones comprise the walls of the inverted spires they build religiously downward into the earth. It can take years for an Elder dwarf to walk to his position in the   mausoleum of his Hall.
 
You take that back right now! Fairy tales are so underused! I find that folklore and mythology lend an ominous yet familiar vibe to whatever I do with fantasy.
 
I quite like this. I mean, I highly recommend trying out Endless Legend. It has a really fleshed out fantasy work that all fundamentally depends on it's "ancient futuristic tech". The world is full of "Dust" which is this golden dust that can be used to do anything (like magic (up to and including instantly finishing buildings that you're building for your empire)) and it has become the defacto currency of the whole planet. It's awesome.

The question was "what ruins your fantasy immersion" and those are my answers.  Greek fire was effectively magic and has never been exactly replicated; RPG players (and film directors) also tend to exaggerate how effective burning pitch and "bombs" actually were. 

What types of things that might come up in a fantasy game* ruin the immersive experience for you?  I'm not asking you to come up with just anything that *would* ruin it, but what actually has ruined it.  What have you actually encountered in play that disrupted your willful suspension of disbelief?
 
*And you can also include things outside of games, such as fantasy literature or movies or TV shows, etc.
 
For me, the main one is anachronisms - which is a very broad category.  It includes all of the following:
 
* Injection of sci-fi elements (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, anyone?)  I don't like ray guns and robots mixed with my rapiers and rakshasas.
* Magic items and spells that are simply modern-day technologies with a fantasy-colored coat of paint: Dragon-powered railroads, a magic spell that fills the roll of a cell phone, a "magic item" that is essentially a mechanical armored tank, complete with a 105 mm mounted "wand of fireballs".
* Modern-day sensibilities and memes.  In societal structure, government, religion, philosophy, etc.
* Anachronistic words and expressions.  I remember an episode of MST3K, "Quest of the Delta Knights" in which a character says, "This book is a blueprint for the future!"  To which, the other character should have said, "What the heck is a 'blueprint'?"  I've seen another fantasy setting that included a particular type of wizard specializing in mental manipulation called a "Mesmer", as if the word means "a person who mesmerizes others".  When actually "Mesmer" is the name of a 18-19th century doctor whose work led to hypnotism.  His name is where we get the word "mesmerize" - a word which should not exist in a fantasy world where this person never existed.
* References to modern-day scientific knowledge that people in the quasi-historical fantasy setting wouldn't have, such as the germ theory of disease, the fundamental laws of physics, cosmology, etc.
* Evidence of a lost civilization that had modern-day, or future technology.
 
Of course, anachronisms aren't the only category of immersion disruptors, but for me, it covers about 99% of the cases.
 
What are the immersion disruptors for you?  Anachronistic ones, or otherwise.  What things spoil the "fantasy feel"?

Correct.  The idea of buying a Fixed or Floating Designated Thing that you can teleport to yourself is a new construct, as suggested in the first post of this thread.  It seems to me to be of comparable utility, and therefore, probably worth the same number of points.

So each duplicate should be built with the complication Accidental Change: recombines when it takes any STUN or BODY?

Explosives.  Incendiaries.  And especially Molotov cocktails made out of oil flasks.  These bother me in films too.  It's lazy.
 
Modern astronomy.  So many "fantasy" settings are explicitly set in an M-class star system for some reason.  It's fantasy my dude, the world can be flat, and the sun can be drawn by a chariot.

oh, man... Where do I start?
 
Mythic or Fairy tale Cosmology.  Said on the other thread. not a fan of Geocentric flat earths on the backs of turtles going all the way down,  and "breathable space".
 
Eberron. Nope.  related: I dislike steam punk because it all ways devolves into  goggles,, and gears on hats, and two gun feminism. It's about as related to anything Victorian, as Star Wars is to NASA
 
Illiterate does not mean stupid.  Peasants had to know the land, the seasons and the growing cycles , and how to make and repair their tools (outside of blacksmithing), and manage their animals.  Unsuccessful peasants starved to death or became wards of their smarter relatives.  Barbarians aren't stupid, they just have different priorities.
 
I could go on, but I will keep this one short.
 
 
 
 
 

This is more a complaint for fantasy artwork, and video games, but: Giant weapons for human-sized fighters. Seven-foot swords. Hundred-pound hammers. Axes as broad as a car door. All of the insecurity-overcompensating, penis-substituting, power-fantasizing behemoth bodkins that even Conan couldn't swing in a fight.

What types of things that might come up in a fantasy game* ruin the immersive experience for you?  I'm not asking you to come up with just anything that *would* ruin it, but what actually has ruined it.  What have you actually encountered in play that disrupted your willful suspension of disbelief?
 
*And you can also include things outside of games, such as fantasy literature or movies or TV shows, etc.
 
For me, the main one is anachronisms - which is a very broad category.  It includes all of the following:
 
* Injection of sci-fi elements (Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, anyone?)  I don't like ray guns and robots mixed with my rapiers and rakshasas.
* Magic items and spells that are simply modern-day technologies with a fantasy-colored coat of paint: Dragon-powered railroads, a magic spell that fills the roll of a cell phone, a "magic item" that is essentially a mechanical armored tank, complete with a 105 mm mounted "wand of fireballs".
* Modern-day sensibilities and memes.  In societal structure, government, religion, philosophy, etc.
* Anachronistic words and expressions.  I remember an episode of MST3K, "Quest of the Delta Knights" in which a character says, "This book is a blueprint for the future!"  To which, the other character should have said, "What the heck is a 'blueprint'?"  I've seen another fantasy setting that included a particular type of wizard specializing in mental manipulation called a "Mesmer", as if the word means "a person who mesmerizes others".  When actually "Mesmer" is the name of a 18-19th century doctor whose work led to hypnotism.  His name is where we get the word "mesmerize" - a word which should not exist in a fantasy world where this person never existed.
* References to modern-day scientific knowledge that people in the quasi-historical fantasy setting wouldn't have, such as the germ theory of disease, the fundamental laws of physics, cosmology, etc.
* Evidence of a lost civilization that had modern-day, or future technology.
 
Of course, anachronisms aren't the only category of immersion disruptors, but for me, it covers about 99% of the cases.
 
What are the immersion disruptors for you?  Anachronistic ones, or otherwise.  What things spoil the "fantasy feel"?

THIS!  So much this!  Ancient polytheistic religions were not organized like medieval Christianity.  And their places of worship were not called "cathedrals" or "churches" AFAIK.
 
I like the standard fantasy races:  elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes.  However:
 
* I really don't like the D&D proliferation of "subraces".  I don't want a half-dozen different types of elves.  Or any other race.  This does not serve any purpose in a game that isn't already served by having different races, nations, and cultures.  Any story arc involving the differences between Valley Elves and Dale Elves can just as easily be done between Elves and Humans, or between Elves of Northern Vithnaklia, and Elves of Southern Vithnaklia.
 
* And speaking of races, there is no need for each race to have it's own "dark" "evil" subrace.  We already have evil races: Orcs, Goblins, Trolls, or whatever else.  (I've never found Drow Elves to be at all an impressive idea, despite how proud of them the deendee folks are.  And I never saw any definitive answer as to whether it rhymes with "blow" or with "cow".)
 
* And speaking a little more of races, I also never liked another thing in D&D that I call, "The Star Trek School of Reproductive Biology" - that any two races can make a cross-breed, and that cross-breed constitutes an entire separate race.  That any two sentient creatures can have sex and make a viable offspring.  And if the father has pointed ears and the mother has forehead ridges, then the child will have pointed ears and forehead ridges.
 
It's as if the D&D plan was that no two PCs would ever be the same race.