Marcus

Re: Call for Replacements Or, another way to look at it, Damage Reduction lowers the value of your defenses. If we assume I've already bought 50% DR, then it takes 2PD to prevent 1 point of damage actually getting through to my stun. If I've already bought 75% DR, then it takes 4PD to prevent the loss of one more stun. In these parts, DR has always been popular with the mid defense, mid-con crowd, because its so useful for mitigating that one magical, high-rolled hit (Stun lotto, or just a good roll on an EV). DR can be a great way to survive the One Big Hit that so often KOs anything but a brick. Bricks, OTOH, hereabouts, tend to just buy all the PD and ED the GM considers appropriate, rather than watering that PD and ED down with DR. Theyve got the massive con and stun reservse to shake off a single heavy hit, and get hit alot more, so dont want to face 'bleed through' constantly.

Split off of the Replacements thread, to avoid stepping on someone else's topic. Short summary: Do you weigh 'reduced endurance' on attack powers, when considering the Active Point Cap? Or are you of the "Damage Classes" subset, who weigh attacks only by the advantages that affect how they do damage? If the second, are there any advantages which, even so, you look at more carefully/weigh differently than others? Propositions: 1.) Active Point Caps/Damage Class Weighings turn many 'Advantages' into things that make powers Not Worth Using. 2.) Specifically, taking reduced endurance into the calculation of how much damage a player may do with an attack unintentionally favors certain SFX. 3.) Our perception of problems with the cost of certain advantages has been dulled by Multipowers, which cause powers to be bought that would not otherwise. 4.) Similarly, the commonality of Active Point Caps and Active-Point-Cap Multipowers has resulted in many Champions players building "effects that match the points" rather than "points that match the effect". Random Junk: The question came up because a given character was over active point cap on one of his attacks, due to take the attack 0 END. Some GMs weighed in, saying that they do think 0 END should count towards AP cap, because of its other effects. It seems to me that if we weigh reduced end/0 END towards active point caps, we are simply telling players that they are to buy END reserves, or attack slots in a multipower with some version of +0 Charges (16 Charges, less charges with clips, etc.). This has the unintended consequence of rewarding certain special effects that lend themselves to end reserves, or especially charges and foci. Now, I will grant that (as a GM) I DO pay attention to END usage, and Mr. Goes-All-Day Energize Bunny will, in my games, all other things being equally, usually end up a DC or two under Mr. Counts-every-end-like candy. Thats only fair. But does anyone have any players that would intentionally choose to be an 8 Dice Energy Blaster in a 12 Dice Game, rather than a 12 dice energy blaster with charges, an end reserve, or just good END/REC/etc? And I mean their 'primary attack' as a 0 END attack... Similarly, we have advantages such as AOE. For +1, you can buy an attack that, essentially, doesn't work on supers. Its a great agent-buster, and thats a good reason to include it in a multipower, etc, but noone will ever take an AOE attack as one of their major attacks... which suggests that whatever you get for that +1, you give up more than you get. Thats an interesting thought.. I wonder if Multipowers have dulled our weighing of advantages, etc. Most multipowers I've seen have a big 'vanilla' attack, because those are ALMOST ALWAYS BETTER for their active points than anything that is disadvantages by having an advantage put on it. Then, they spend a handful of points here and there for 'niche' attacks.. something AOE, something LOS/NRP, something continuous... all useful in the right place and time, but something that your just not likely to ever take as a full-cost power in an active point cap game. I mention AOE, Continuous, and the like, because most GMs WILL weigh those against not just Active Points, but Damage Classes.. and again, being the 6 dice blaster in the 12 dice game is even less appealing than being the 12 dice blaster... and god help you if its a 0 END AOE... 4.5 dice? This has gotten disjointed, and should NOT be interpreted as a criticism of how anyone runs their games! I'm just curious as to peoples thoughts/comments.

Re: Call for Replacements By my first glance, hes only 'over active points' due to reduced endurance cost on powers. Now, Im not sure what approach the GM in question takes on things like that, but in my experience, saying that (for example) 4d6 RKA is acceptable but 4d6 RKA 0END is not just changes how characters are built... suddenly people dont take reduced END advantages, they instead by END reserves, giant REC, or (the eternal favourite!) a big ole attack multipower with alot of different attacks, with charges on each slot. Basic result: Foci, Guns, Battlesuits=Good, Innate Powers=Bad (because certain SFX fit game efficiency break-points better) Sorry for the derail.

Re: Elemental benders (Avatar) Odly enough, one of MY friends is starting (actually, restarting) a HERO game (Supers, 700! point), and one of the new-to-hero players wanted to do an avatar-bender. We went with three multipowers: One of offensive type stuff, with alot of variable special effects to represent air/earth/fire blasts, one of movement powers, also VSE (he can 'fly' on colums of rock, a la Terra, or on air, fire, etc...), and finally one 4-slot, 1 for each element, that reflected a bending 'focus', giving the character essentially 4 elemental forms he could switch between, with appropriate bonuses (character ends up being a demi brick/blaster/speedster/martist if he is earth/fire/air/water focused). Oh, and one thing that fit 'benders, at least for our game, was the massive property damage. Less, perhaps, when bending some elements than others... but Earth Benders, espc, are INCREDIBLY destructive to the built environment, espc. in a city. If I can get ahold of the sheet, Ill post it, as another 'take' on the subject (and one that travels fairly far afield from the core concept, I'll grant)

Re: Simulating Drowning with Images I really like Undie.. and yeah, thats a very similar drowning attack to the first one discussed above. I agree about being often not worth its points... while terrifying, both IC and OOC, the 'put-down' speed is just not as good as with a straight EB or RKA. Thanks, again!

Re: Simulating Drowning with Images

Re: Philosophical: Definition Of A Mechanic For the record, I agree with you whole-heartedly that advantages should be purely advantageous, and limitations should be purely limiting. Some of the players in my local group have taken to referring to Damage Sheild as a limitation and foci/charges as an advantage.

Re: Simulating Drowning with Images I suppose I was unclear. "Lungs of Water", the does body nnd awful power, is a potential construct out of the pool (barring GM's approval, which is its own problem. *G*) The question is 'what do I do to make someone FEEL like that is happening, without -actually- drowning/ killing them, because killing people is unheroic (IC reason) and continuous uncontrolled does body NNDs make GMs uncomfortable (OOC reason). IE, the player is going "How do I make people THINK Im doing this to them, without actually doing it?" One option is the exact same power, only without doing body... thus, they feel like their drowning, and even pass out. ((This is still a continuous uncontrolled NND, however, though it has a relatively easy and readily ascertainable 'turn off switch')) Another option (positied in the first post) is to use images to duplicate the sensation, without any game effect. This gives the GM alot of control over the outcome, but could still be useful as a mook-buster. I do like the drain and change environment ideas, as well... *hmm* Thanks, all!

Re: Healing I got him.

Situation is as follows: PC, a finger-wiggling mystic-VPP guy, has among other things a power that drowns people. (some dice, AOE, NND vs. life support, does body, continuous uncontrolled, turned off by appropriate first aid, etc. etc. etc.) Obviously the above is a fairly nasty power, both structurally ((continuous uncontrolled NND does body? Bad PC, bad bad bad)) and heroically ((YOUR DOING WHAT TO THOSE AGENTS!!!!)). This, to me, begs the question... What if you just wanted to make them feel like they were drowning? Mental Illusions seems appropriate, but so does images, and I have a personal long-running distaste for Mental Illusions (and mind control, for that matter). So how would you buy either? And what effect do you see it having? I know we reason from game effect, but the only 'game effect' intended is to create a sensation in the targets. I guess more what I'm asking is what responses would you anticipate to that? I can see agent level guys doing alot of rolling around and gasping, hard-knock guys 'getting off one more shot' before they go under, and the smart guys going "Hmm.. Im not getting dizzy, yet..."

Re: The Olympics Dragonfly could not compete. If cybernetics and robots are out, ZPE force construct battlesuits are WAY out... and even if they were in, hes so far from strongest, fastest, etc. that it isn't even funny. That said, he would no doubt HAPPILY attend, in secret ID, to cheer on humanity in general, and his teammates in particular. Nightshade, like Dragonfly, suffers from a bad case of 'inappropriate powers'. I somehow doubt that teleporting is a valid way to win a race, and darkness manipulation in general tends to be offputting to the public. Further, as a mutant, she would be very, very uncomfortable with putting herself in a public position, or putting 'her people' in a bad light. Solaris... could probably compete in the strength and generic athleticism style events (not dissimilar to Superman). But he wouldn't. If asked why not, he would indicate that his super-heroing job is, for him, more important and must be his priority (while not denigrating those who made other choices). He'd probably also say something suitably self-deprecating, like "Id probably be outclassed by the specialists" and "not a very competitive personality" Sisuthros would depend on how magic works into it, and what opportunities, if any, this creates for his agenda. Though he loves contests and challenges, the olympics (unless there is a magical or magical conflict section) just doesn't have a place for his talents.

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking? Given the comment about Psions, coupled with your approach in this thread to mental powers and description of the high-DCV, low-ego 'martist', I think weve gotten to the core of the matter. ((Please correct me if I'm wrong)) You see Mentalism as being 'outside the norm' for your games. Few to no people have it, and noone should have to buy defenses against it, due to its rarity. Mental powers should, in such a setting, be purchased in an amount/levels to match that lack of defenses, wiht an end result eing that mentalism is no better or worse than anything else. The countervailing position is that mental powers, and mental defense, are as much a 'part of the game' as flash defense, power defense or (argueably) rPD and rED. A character going forth to superhero with no meaningful flash will have his entire day ruined by his first flash, and a character lacking rPD will respond poorly to handguns. Even so (in the eyes of position #2), a character with a 10 Ego is the moral equivalent of a character with a 10 Dex... he knew the risks when he signed up. Alot of 1st and 2nd ed. D+D games that added Psionics 'after the fact' (Much less an issue with 3.5 psionics, which is like magic, but less cool) had similar problems. Noone had invested anything in their defenses against mentalism, they were all mind-blind, etc... so when psionics showed up, everyone was blindsided. In a game/world where psionics were just a part of the thing from day 1, a character would no more ignore their mental defenses than their magical ones, and would have no more right to complain about the result of having more mental defense than having no magical defense. For me, and my group, Mental Powers came in at day 1. This does not mean every character needs a 20+ ego and 10+ additional mental defense, but if you dont have a decent Ego, and at least SOME mental defense, know WHY you dont... just like a character with a bad dex and no real PD and ED probably had better think things through. Maybe thats even part of the problem... since even in a high-mentalism game, a lack of EGO and Mental Def. doesnt ruin you as often as a lack of Dex and PD, people start to think of it as something they dont need to have... and then get shocked and appaled when they DO get crushed by the attack they didnt bother to buy the defense against.

Re: High-body temperature character? Killer Shrike's site has a high-internal-temperature SFX character in one of his villian groups... I don't remember the character or group name, and cant seem to find it at the moment, but I recall it being very thoroughly thought-through and built. Im also recalling it being slightly terrifying, so YMMV.

Re: The purpose of a system - academic and geeky... Proposition: All other things being equal, the level of granularity in a particular aspect of a system is directly proportional to the importance of activity in that area to the system. When a system fails in this (creates alot of granularity in an area not the 'focus' of the system) then the system becomes unnecessarily complicated, relative to its overal focus.

Re: The purpose of a system - academic and geeky... Only speaking for myself... Game Rules, and Game Application of Same: The game rules define, to some extent, the 'laws of science' of the world that they describe. If I'm a consistency monkey in my own games, and if I drive my DMs to destraction because of what I think are questionable rules calls, it is because I feel that the rules define how things work in that world, at least as a baseline. Of course, most games diverge at some point from the very rules they run by. Whether the GM's thumb on the scales to keep the PCs alive, to a simple hand-wave that keeps the -1 Stun mooks unconcious, at some point the rules are usually stepped away from. The alternative to this (having a single set of rules, that is always applied, to all beings) generates a style of play very divergent from the 'classic' superhero, or even high-fantasy hero, and more like Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, or other such games. In the typical supers or high fantasy game, the characters arent just however competent the character sheet says they are, they are in some fashion 'special'... they, like the hero of the story, are the central figure. For the more gritty games, the characters, however competent (and they may in some cases be the -most- competent), are not particularly special... and the rules apply fully, to everyone, all the time. Your not special, your not a beautiful flower, and yes, your character can slip off this mortal coil because he got unlucky. Deal. In the former style game, the question becomes "Since the rules are not -always- the rules, when do we diverge"? In such a game, the rules either define the 'bubble around the PCs'... with physics subtly changing once its outside of the PCs sight-line, such that the world can continue to exist. This basically ignores those pesky questions like 'So... how do people actually DIE from gunshots to the chest' by saying that the body damage, death at -body, etc. rules only apply to PCs... offscreen normal people suffer the same results that 'real world' people do. I consider this the 'basic' rules-setting for games. No consistency is required, nothing is required, other than that it cause everything within the little bubble around the PCs to function to create the game experience intended by the creator. Of course, the PLAYERS must buy into that lack of consistency, but in many settings, this simply isnt a problem. (Note the lack of casulties in most superhero world natural disasters.. .this is simply a part of the setting). Argueably, VtM had this aspect... the world simply did not hold together if everyone within it played by the same rules the characters did. The second setting for those 'PCs are different' worlds is what I consider the 'fudge-factor' ruleset... one that covers the entire world with the layer of definition necessary for physics, but in which the GM occasionally takes steps, because the RAW dont allow for Heros to act... Heroically. Sometimes ADD 3.5 has that feel... without some GM intervention, its not a good simulation of Heroing... its a simulation of D+D, with all its tactical wierdness. The 'ideal' ruleset, IMHO, is one that covers both. It should be inclusive, internally consistent, and apply to all characters in the game. These are your 'gritty' or 'realistic' rules.. .rule systems that are absent 'Karma-Points' or other additional control fate mechanics, and instead allow the dice to fall where they may. Iron Age superheroing (at whatever power level, and with whatever morality) has such a feel, as do the Champions rules. Just my 2c on realism and game choice, YMMV.

I want yalls take on something... Im not looking at anything grossly horrible, like Megascale 'Port as an attack... just a simple Teleport, 20", useable as an attack, at range, position shift... Would this enable a character to reach out and move someone to another hex, and leave them prone in the new hex? And if so, how 'unbalancing' does it strike everyone as being? The local GM doesnt seem to see it as a real big deal (its a ranged martial throw, that gives more control over where they go, but does no damage) yet the local Martial Artist player reacted with shrieking horror (not suprising, he reacts to EVERY idea of mine with shrieking horror). Just wanted yall's first-glance take.

Re: Culture HERO Uhlan... the books are not a series, in as much as the events, and characters of each are independent, though set in the same universe. I -believe- Consider Phlebas was first, then Use of Weapons Player of Games (Uncertain,havent read this one) Excession Look to Windward And I'm no doubt forgetting a few. Fair warning, the first few will be hard to find in the US, at least I have had some difficulty. All are quite wonderful. And as far as points, I can do a pretty good impression of the GSV Quietly Confident on about 20,000 Points. Could probably trim it down to 7000 or so before I really cut into the concept.

Well... Stun IS mostly 'pain', shock/bruising etc. Healing/Aid/Succor etc. to Stun might get you where you want to be. Characters that 'feel no pain' can variously be modeled as: Cannot be Stunned (perhaps taking it too far) Takes no Stun (very likely taking it too far) Damage Reduction, Stun Only. If a character could cause another person to not feel the pain of existing wounds.. aid to stun, or healing of stun 'damage', or perhaps some build of Takes No Stun, useable by others. (The last has some game balance implicitions... but since 'Takes No Stun' characters pay triple for defenses, the character would argueably have his defenses cut to 1/3 previous values... people who feel no pain arent nearly as good at protecting themselves from injury)

Hmm... Yup, I've got a use for her. If there's any significant info thats not in the Hero Designer file, please send it. A question as to how she's played... I assume she survives on her high speed and dive for cover (as, at least in my group/area, anyone displaying a speed over 6 and making 20+" moves tends to draw AOE EBs and AOE Entangles like nobodys buisness)... she seems really neat, both power and personality wise... but just sooo fragile... edit... my Email addy might be useful if you were to email me something... marcus_h_smythe@hotmail.com

Anything in the 350-700 range would be excellent. Outside of that, I'm really more interested in the people than the Damage Classes, so I can probably modify them pretty easily.

In the round-robin stint of rotating responsiblity, it should soon be my turn to run in our local Champions group... One of the things I'm thinking about doing may involve some alternate reality like stuff, which brings me to the point of this thread.... I need Heros. Preferably, Hero's that my fellow players dont know from published material. The fact that long run PCs tend to be 'richer' both in terms of build and in terms of nuanced back story, also really helps. That and I thought it might be interesting to see what everyone else is doing with their characters. Thus I am requesting anyone/everyone willing to post any PC's they have in Herodesigner format (or otherwise, but HD is most useful to me) to this thread, so I have as many examples as possible to 'flesh out' the worlds my PCs end up in. Pretty please?

While I certainly accept, and agree with, the points raised here as reguards the mathmatical impact of increased stunX, I disagree that increased stun multiple is, in and of itself, the problem. At least on my own part, the 'point' of the KA is its variability, as opposed to the 'point' of a Normal Attack, which is its reliability. There are times, and opponents, where all one wants is a good likelyhood of getting close to 49 stun and 14 body... and times when your only hope is to roll 5d6-1 and offer up a prayer to the dice gods that they will smite your opponent. Buying up the stun multiple and loosing dice reduces that variablity. The 'problem' if their is one comes in the fact that a 2d6RKA +4 Stun Multiple is (in terms of stun dealt) an 'equivalent' attack to the 4d6RKA (if not superior) but much easier to further advantage. 4d6RKA AP is 90 active points... 2d6RKA +4 Stun Multiple AP is 75 Active Points. Weve enough room left in a hypothetical 75 active point ceiling game to make this sucker 1 Hex Accurate, or Zero End, or the like... and still be at 90 Active Points. 2d6RKA +4 StunX AP AOE 1 Hex Accurate is going to very reliably be more useful than 4d6RKA AP... more stun, more accurate. The efficiency of heavily advantaged powers is an old, and well know issue.. as I see it, the threat of increased Stun X is that it makes a power easier to subsequently advantage.

For those who have read Ian M. Banks Dazzling Culture Novels in general, and Excession in specific- what are your feelings about modeling a War-Prepared GSV in general, and the GSV Quietly Confident (aka Sleeper Service) in Champions? My own build treats it as an Automaton, rather than an AI, simply to get away from the idea of being limited to programs. Duplication that only duplicates some characteristics (INT, SPD, EGO, DEX, Sensors, VPP) was used to reflect the ability of the GSV to pay 'full concentration' or near it to an insane number of tasks simultaneously. I also used Multiple Naked Triggers as another way to simulate the effectively instantaenous response time of the things to any circumstance. Current build is UTTERLY Over The Top, and I'm seeking help (and other ideas) to let me get this thing down to a size that Hero Designer handles comfortably.

I would like to apply in advance for the long-windedness, but as I was apparently unclear earlier and as the subject of Adjustment Powers increasing themselves is a confusing one, it seemed best. In your earlier reply, you stated that any aid was by definition finite, due to the fact that there was no advantage to represent the lack of a limit (if I understood correctly). This is actually not entirely true... let us hypothesize: 3d6+1 Aid, +1 Maximum Effect (20 Total) 1/2 to STR, 1/2 to Increased Maximum Effect, Standard Effect (To make the math easier). SPD 4 Character: Segment 3: +5 STR, +5 Points to Maximum Effect of Aid (Maximum Effect is now 30, 10 of which has been rolled) Segment 6: +5 STR, +5 Points to Maximum Effect of Aid (Maximum Effect is now 40, 20 of which has been rolled) Segment 9: Repeat Segment 12: Repeat (Running Total+20 Character Points of STR, +20 Character Points of Maximum Effect on Aid, increasing the maximum effect by 40). Post Seg 12: -5 Character Points of STR, -5 Character Points of Maximum Effect on Aid. Because half the points of the aid go to increase the maximum possible effect of the aid, and because thats a 2:1 Ratio, the size of the AID is fixed in terms of dice, but the maximum increases without limit. Insert Icon for STOP sign here. It is this principle that the Attack Nanobots of Terran Empire (and, back in 4th ed, the Thanatic Rod of Mystic Masters) use or attempt to use to build powers that grow without limit (the Attack Nanobots by an attached aid, the Thanatic Rod by being a Transfer to Transfer). By your ruling that the 'Increased Maximum Effect' Adder for Adjustment Powers must take whatever advantage that the base Adjustment Power takes (which is imminently logical), you prevents any of the above style of construct from working when they carry +1 or greater advantages (as at +1 or greater, it takes at LEAST as many points to increase the maximum effect as one gets out of that increased maximum effect.. thus you have zero or negative return on that investment). The ruling is logical, and was my original assumption, save inasmuch as at least one published power in 5th ed cannot work under that logical ruling. For purposes of my own 'vision' of the Hero System, and after some discussion with my fellow players, we have decided that the truest way to represent powers that are intended to 'grow' slowly to some devestating final extent are best reflected by purchasing their 'full extent' and then limiting them down. An example of this would be to buy the planet-eating Attack Nanobots with enough megaarea to cover the planet, and then limit the Megaarea to reflect the fact that the power initially has much smaller coverage. PS: Hows your bout with the Mongolian Death Flu going? Its been pretty harsh around here...

Noted in your response below that Advantages increase the cost/active points of the 'increased maximum effect' Adder for Adjustment Powers. Question: Spacers Toolkit, P 26, has an Attack Nanobots power. The power is described as a self-sustaining, continously increasing nanobot swarm. This is purchased as an RKA with an attached Aid. The aid splits its points between increasing the size of the Aid, and increasing the AOE on the RKA (And explains that increasing the size of the AOE of the RKA with the aid is not legal- but that isnt germaine to the question). The Aid is 4d6, Maximum of 30 points of effect, Continuous (+1), Uncontrolled (+1/2). If Half Aid goes into making the Aid bigger... it seems that it cannot grow without limit, but instead 'tops out' fairly shortly. The first 15 points of 'effect' on the aid buy 15 Active Points of Increased Maximum Effect. 15 Active Points of Continuous, Uncontrolled Increased Maximum Effect is +12 Maximum Effect. 6 of those 12 will go into increasing the maximum effect again, by 4-5 points this time. Not long after, the power peters out, having Aided RKA by about 25-26 points... less than if the Aid hadnt aided itself at all. Obviously it was not the intent of the author that the Attack Nanobots 'peter out' after increasing their AOE by 25 or so active points, but that is what the rules (by my understanding and your below ruling) seem to indicate. Options (to the best of my understanding) 1.) The Power is incorectly purchased. There is some correct way to purchase it that follows the 'Turing Machine' Philosophy, IE some way to build an Adjustment Power that grows without limit. 2.) The power is incorectly purchased. There is no way to build 'Turing Machine' Powers by their small initial effect, but they should instead be defined by their potential maximum effect, and then limited to reflect the time necessary for them to grow to that potential, and their vulnerability while growing. 3.) The power is correctly purchased, and I have made a grevious error somewhere.