Doc Democracy

6 minutes ago, Steve said:

I can’t recall how it was portrayed in Greyhawk’s history, but magic items, the more powerful ones, could be relics of an older time when magic was more common.

 

Maybe there has been a gradual falling off in the number of powerful wizards, so “common” magic items like +1 or +2 weapons, weak wands, and potions are made now but things like a Staff of the Archmagi are relics of that elder age.

There is definitely a place for one-off "named" items.  And for the low level +1s, I mean how else are you supposed to beat creatures that need +1 weapons or greater to hit??  🙂

I like mundane names that sound innocuous but, if you know, it really isn't.  I have been racking my brain for something topical and the best I can manage is the Street Sweepers.  🙂  I went through all kinds of combinations but too many of them ended up sounding a bit too local government-y (and not in a good way).

4 hours ago, GDShore said:

One of the things about D&D was they had no other template to work with, no powers, no talents, ect. Does the birth of a new potential mage create waves in the magic firmament such that a wizard immediately moves in their direction to take them on as an apprentice? I am not trying to put any one down. This is one of the questions I began asking in "78-"79 among others. If people are being born with magic ability and no one shows to teach them do they just dry up and blow away on the wind? Or do they teach themselves? Ever seen what happens when someone tries to teach them selves a new skill it is dangerous to the person trying it and to 'every one around them'. 

My thoughts are that anyone could be involved with magic but, if you cannot find a mentor, you might, regardless of talent, languish, casting cantrips your whole life.  A mentor opens up windows in your mind that allow you to channel greater magics.

I am thinking that clever use of the VPP rules might limit the power available to a wizard.  Your mentor initiates you to the "first level".  In game terms, this allows you to cast magic by buying a VPP.  It is small.  Your spellbook contains a few scripted spells (I am thinking each spell is a knowledge skill) and you have no ability to vary your spells.

When you have gained experience, and gold, you might seek out your old master (a contact or relationship in game) or another mentor to take your magic to the next level.  This would require you to spend gold, or lean into a relationship, but the XP spend opens up the VPP a bit and gives you the ability to free cast bigger spells and to maintain more lower power ones.

You could gain spells by finding other people's spellbooks or doing research (spending XP on more KS).

This means you need to maintain relationships with the right people, or to spend lots of gold etc with those who are more mercenary, if you want to progress.

I have it in my mind to use the old names from first edition AD&D for levels up to "name level" to get hierarchies of training.

This limits how and when folk might spend experience on certain things but it ties stuff into the setting.  you should be able to progress but you will do so more spectacularly by buying into the settings conceits.

4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

I have always kind of assumes the reason wizards and such kept to thmselves was a combination of the rigors or spell research and Vancian magic.  It is not like you are going to make a living using it:

 

"Okay, that is the two instances I prepared for.  Gotta take a nap now if I want do so it again...."

 

Sequestered away to the corners in small groups, they can take turns napping.

 

 

I always thought of it as arcane meditations rather than napping, regardless of how it looked to other people.  🙂

6 hours ago, Steve said:

In Greyhawk, I don’t think you’d ever find a Harry Potter-like wizard school, even in the city of Greyhawk itself. Magic was instead passed down from wizard to apprentice. That would really tend to keep their numbers down. A school would be like an assembly line making new wizards every year.

 

Based on D&D having an INT minimum to even be a wizard back in early editions (I think it was 9 or better), that seemed to be the main barrier to entry rather than some kind of inner talent. Most characters treated INT as a dump stat unless they were going to be a wizard, so I guess you could say most people were too dim to handle the subtle intricacies of magic.

 

Holding to the wizard-apprentice setup helps explain why there are so few wizards.

Now I like the almost Sith-like idea of the master and apprentice but how does a low entry and low number of wizards sit comfortably with the extensive supply of magic weapons and items?  Whatever else, Greyhawk has a magical economy with potions, scrolls, wands etc as part of its essence.  or is that not the Greyhawk you experienced?

Are we saying that casters are rare but smiths, apothecaries, etc., are reasonably common?  That, given time and the right materials, many folk can imbue magic into an item, and that master-craftsmen are the ones creating the finest stuff?  But it takes a wizard to walk the world and cast magic at will?

I can see that working. I can also see the economy of adventurers out hunting for the materials for the finest stuff and possibly just getting by, selling the detritus that goes into the more common magic items.

11 minutes ago, Old Man said:

Magic has little effect on daily life in Greyhawk, with magic users largely preferring to stay in the shadows (for unexplained reasons).  Greyhawk the city is basically Lankhmar; sorcery happens in the corners but you're not going to see streets lit by Continual Light very often.

Interesting insight.  Should I be putting something in to that effect? Is there a game reason that wizards keep a distance?  Is wizard magic more difficult when there are lots of people about?  Does it have side-effects that only become apparent with long term continuous exposure?

I have made my first decision. 

Alignments need to exist.  The Manual of the Planes show there are Outer Planes that are the essence of each alignment.  Those alignments intruding on the Prime Material are the fundment for clerical magic.  I think that each player can choose to take a physical complication - [Alignment] - and will suffer consequences of acting outside that alignment - the GM should give in game warnings of straying, like dreams and magical messengers.  OR you can choose to take the social complication of No alignment.  That will make certain magic impossible for you to access and make you stick out in a world where the vast majority of the population wear their allegiance to particular deitites in their aura.  It will be positive for some looking for people free to act more freely and negative in that many may distrust someone without an alignment more than someone of the opposite alignment. 

The presence of alignment also has a heavy lean into how the world works and whether there are such things as evil races.  I am pretty much against absolutes (it is why I like HERO!) and to say that orcs must be evil and elves must be good seems wrong to me.  There has to be a better way but, if there is, it needs to be tied into the fundamentals of the setting.  I want good orcs and I want evil elves but I want them to be possible exceptions (I think many folks of all races will probably tend neutral with their society pushing them one way or another). My gaming group has been together for over 20 years and we are quite comfortable with each other as far as content goes, we now and trust each other, we know where our limits are and when (and how) those can be stretched.  However, I am aware of the broader concern in the hobby about evil races and sometimes about the existence of evil itself.  As I said, in my opinion, Greyhawk is quite tightly tied to the concept of evil (and good and law and chaos) as a thing in the universe.  It is also quite tied to particular gods (with their archetypal alignments) creating particular races.

I am not down with an orc being chaotic evil simply because it is an orc.  I can see an orc living in a chaotic evil culture and probably participating in that culture (and possibly then, be default, behaving in a chaotic evil manner).  What I could not see was why an orc might stay in such a situation. It was easy to see why Russians stayed in Communist Russia, because, beyond the inertia of that was where they were born and knew little else, it was not easy to migrate.  What reason could there be for orcs and other humanoids in Greyhawk?

My answer has been that it is the fault of the Gods and their acolytes on earth.  When the gods created the humanoid races, it was to generate chaos and evil on Oerth.  So, priests of the evil gods have an ability to create a Beast Pit (or hell pit or fiend pit - multiple names, same outcome).  When a priest of Gruumsh, for example, creates such a pit, they can raise dozens (or hundreds, depending on their power level) of bestial versions of an orc sacrificed to the pit.  As such, every humanoid becomes a potential source of a bestial invasion.  For this reason, many societies reject the presence of humanoids within their territory, meaning that humanoid tribes are outcast to those places not under the rule of law and those tribes tend towards places where evil and chaos thrive.  There is also a distinct difference between the individual orc or goblin that you can judge on their actions, and the bestial versions that you encounter when assualting the temple of elemental evil or defending Dyvers from invading hordes.

I think this puts the existential alignment struggles front and centre and removes the trope of "the only good orc...".  It opens up lines of communication to those humanoid settlements that are essentially free-willed beings scratching a living in the margins of society who are regularly exploited by the evil hierarchies that tolerate their existence.  It also helps explain the explosion of humanoid armies at particular times and why it does not just happen all the time.

There I go, picking at the difficult points first....

Doc

I will be totally up for the player characters, if this is their desire, to create a humanoid-safe location within the setting, where folk can come together to demonstrate the value of treating everyone as a valued member of that society regardless of their mythic origins.  I think it could be a fantastic campaign, just not one that every group might want to play (unless they are a a bunch of Builder player archetypes!).

Just now, Scott Ruggels said:

I would think that the "Flavor" of D&D is Vancian Magic, and the types of Monsters and opposition you go up against. Now I really dislike  Vancian magic, and despair every time someone sets out to write D&D Spells in Hero, especially when there are a lot of other "literary" magic systems out there.  But making the monsters could be an interesting design challenge that I see far fewer examples of.

That being said, looking at those old modules to pull world building information might be the most valuable, who is where, what are the cultures like, what do they trade, and such would be quite useful.

D&D is indeed bound to Vancian magic but I dont think Greyhawk needs to be.  I think there is a role for circles of magic and hierarchies and how I make that work is something I am working on.

I am looking forward to working through the Monster Manual and comparing to what has been done elsewhere.

I am quite inclined to play the Wars actually, I think the stuff that goes on and the potential for action and consequences makes for a lot of gameable content.  I need to see where the PCs can make a difference on the edges.  A war provides lots of opportunities for adventurers and the fluctuating politics gives a lot of roleplay opportunity.

I see them as a mix between special forces and spies. 

I agree with the need for more tactical goals rather than getting hung up on the major strategic goal of beating Iuz.  The existence of the USSR did not stop many great cold war action stories.

I reckon I need to start with a decent selection of stuff.  I am going to look hard at the city of Greyhawk, do a thorough job of the kinds of adventurer that might pass through.

That will be the baseline.

I will add in a sample of other folks, like a Sea Prince, a member of the Red Brotherhood, a Paynim, a northern barbarian, and one or two others.

I will then be happy to custom build package deals if one of my players invests enough time with the setting material to suggest something not in the core.

I always felt that TSR did not do enough to emphasise the different cultures withing the key human populations, not least by not explicitly listing the deities as ones associated with each culture and which have become a bit more cosmopolitan.

THAT is a bit of work I can do for my players.

My first thought on incentivising buying into Greyhawk tropes will be a significant number of package deals, not just making it simpler to put together a bunch of powers/skills etc that make sense in the setting but to go back to the original concept of giving a package bonus, perhaps up to 5% cost savings.

You think 5% is enough to incentivise players to buy in? 

11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Somewhere around here I have the '79 booklet.  If it is of any help to you, and if I can find it.....

 

Though I am curious about two things:

 

Greyhawk Wars?

 

 

Thanks Duke, I have a goodly chunk of early AD&D Greyhawk in hardcopy.  My copy of the World of Greyhawk is a 1983 second printing, possibly the first one to come to the UK is significant numbers.

The Greyhawk Wars was just TSR/WotC moving on the timeline and, has been said, tilting the world to a bit more grimdark (on trend for the time!). 

I am a bit less grimdark but I appreciate the significantly simplified background, and clearer pointing out of immediate big bad rather than the ancient collapsing Empire.

13 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

If you're ever curious and haven't seen this before, the link in my signature will take you to an extensive discussion of what TA is and what can be done with it.

I was part of that thread, I remember reading it with interest.

4 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 For my initial comments I'm going to assume, you being a veteran gamer , that you're referring to the setting before the Greyhawk Wars upended it.

I have NO idea what you mean by veteran!  😄

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To me, the first key element of the setting is history. There's a very clear time line of events by which the nations, races (especially human ethnicities), cultures, and geopolitics of the Flanaess formed as they did by the default start date of the campaign.

This will be the easiest element as it is entirely separate from gameplay.  Not sure if I am going to play pre-Wars, take them through the Wars or play after...

Quote

(BTW I find Hero Games's own The Turakian Age world to come closest to recapturing that Greyhawk style of all the settings I've come across, even to the point of resembling particular regions, although TA's scope is considerably broader.)

Never played in the Turakuan Age, though I gave flicked through it more than once.  Will look at the guidance for playing there.

23 minutes ago, death tribble said:

I have the original G series modules amongst others if that helps. And my first ever module Tomb of Horrors.

I have those too.  Picked up like treasures back when I was not so veteran!  I have a bunch of AD&D, 2nd Edition, and 3.5 stuff for Greyhawk.  I have been in and around Greyhawk since I was 12 and now I want to bring it to life with a proper system.  🙂

Have seen what is out there but I think there is not enough for me to run my next game, Fantasy HERO in Greyhawk.

I want a classic Greyhawk "feel" which means identifying what makes Greyhawk feel like,e Greyhawk without seeking to emulate D&D. 

I will use this thread to talk out loud what I am thinking about, more than happy for folk to chip in. 🙂  can't promise to follow suggestions or advice but alternative views, at worst, sharpen my thinking and point out things I have not considered.

I will add to this as I work things out but would be interested what folk think are essential bits of playing in Greyhawk, the original Gygax setting.

Doc

5 hours ago, C-Note said:

Loving Hero System Mobile!

 

Reporting an issue: Calculating damage for a Killing Attack using Hit Locations is not utilizing the BODY multiplier. In the attached screenshot, a 16 was rolled for KA damage with "Arms" as the hit location. The BODYx is "0.5", so total KA damage should be 8, but it is displaying 16.

 

There is work being done - check in with Sentry) in his thread: 

18 hours ago, Sketchpad said:

I believe there are at least a few games out there that create such consistency when it comes to Luck or a variable of it. Hero Points from Pathfinder, Luck and Hero Points from Mutants & Masterminds, heck even BRP has a Luck stat that can be expended (as well as rolled).

In all those cases, the luck is too consistent to feel like luck, it feels like a reliable power, in BRP it is indeed a roll which you are looking to avoid.  I reckon there needs to be something different in how it is done to make it feel like it is not part of the core gameplay, something extraneous that makes the difference.

I am wondering whether it is something that might turn up unexpectedly - like does your roll hit?  If not, have you rolled a double (if yes, you get lucky!).  You could push your luck, looking for an effect (extra damage, more movement, a successful acquisition of some information, etc) by rolling an additional dice - if that means you get a three dice combo (1,2,3 or 2,3,4) then you get that extra little bonus.

That might be relatively useful.  I love the diminishing pool mechanic - when you have a pool of resource, or time, you can make its depletion unpredictable.  So, say you have 8 luck points, when you use your luck you roll 9D6 and remove any dice that roll 6.  You will probably get more than 8 uses of your luck but in at least one of the games I have used the last three dice vanished all at once, whereas in another the last dice failed to roll 6).

The reason for using the extra dice is because it leaves the potential for your luck going below 0 and causing you to suffer from unluck - it adds tension to the use of the pool and thus "pushing your luck".

Doc

On 3/20/2023 at 1:24 AM, Sketchpad said:

 

In all honesty, I guess I'm looking for an alternative to the usual suspects. Luck is always something I've tried to make more dynamic for my games, so I'm looking at expanding it in some different ways. One such way was using it as an expenditure for luck-based powers. Sometimes your luck just runs out, and it'd be nice to emulate that beyond an activation roll.   

My friend wanted to play a character called Pandemonium.  Just loved the name but we never really managed to come up with a powerset that really reflected the dynamic, ever-changing nature of the power we saw.  Everything fell a bit flat and we eventually put it away as a feature that is VERY difficult to manage in a game (but might be pretty cool in a comic).  Feels a bit like trying to make luck gameable.   🙂

Ultimately every roll is a percentage chance of something happening, the key element is whether you can come up with moments the player feels secure and his luck runs out, or can push his luck to gain something extra, or thinks he is doomed and his luck provides another chance.  I think it is difficult to come up with something that consistently works well in game.

Another good option.  As long as you were doing enough damage per hit you could deter folk from approaching.  Would work in conjunction with PRE attacks.

On 3/14/2023 at 5:19 PM, Sketchpad said:

Thanks for all the input folks. Activation doesn't work for me, as it's just not what I was looking for. I'll have to take a closer look at the APG's luck rules, as I kind of dig that. 

I am not sure what you are aiming at, just a mechanic minus the context.  Folk responded from a mechanical perspective but you are thinking in an effects way.

What we're you looking to achieve in-game?  You might get better suggestions that way.

Doc

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

One thing that might work is using a block maneuver instead of an attack.  Since you can continue to block as long as you keep succeeding you should be able to block multiple characters.  Combine this with the guarding rules and you can stop multiple opponents by continuing your block.  If you have a higher SPD, you can use a sweep maneuver after they have been stopped and then return to a guarding action.

This was my first thought but then, when I ran it, the block only works if someone attacks, not if they just run past...then I just stand there looking silly, waiting for an attack that never comes.

Like you say, you could GM rule it.

I could also GM rule the PRE attack option, being so damn scary that they hold off on rushing me, and as long as I manage to keep doing enough damage to those coming in, they delay long enough for my friends to escape.

I just think that the powers are what make HERO unique, a pretty balanced way of coming up with cool stuff for players to do.  No need to handwave like in other systems to allow cool things to happen, you can allow players to buy those abilities.

On 3/17/2023 at 7:24 PM, LoneWolf said:

 A group of experienced combatants used to working together can probably get around you, but that is often the case in real life. 

I get all the stuff, I have seen it all. 🙂  I wanted Horatio on the bridge, I wanted to hold off a force of men, sacrificing myself heroically to give my comrades time to get away.  If a force of men can rush past, a few of them getting hurt in the process, I have not done my job.

I am not looking to simulate real life, I am looking to HERO for action hero stuff.  So if your solution doesn't accomplish the stand-off, then it isn't the right solution in this case.

🙂

Doc

On 3/16/2023 at 7:09 AM, Opal said:

Sounds fine.  Weave a web of steel and hold back three men at once!

Until one finally breaks through your defense. ( I'm assuming Barrier is like earlier versions' Force Wall.)

Was not sure whether to build it as a 0 DEF barrier with BODY, or a Barrier with no BODY.

I am inclined to go with 0 DEF as it all about being overwhelmed rather than a single massive attack succeeding.  Can see arguments for both though.

22 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Who are these crazed outsiders who think that we cannot defend an area?

 

Me! 🙂

If I am standing on the bridge and there are dozens of opponents seeking to get across and the bridge is, say 5m wide, then I cannot really delay them for long.

The first row approach and I choose to wait and attack the first person who comes close, they all move forward, the one on the middle can't get past and engages, I attack him, the other two move past me.

Next phase, another two move past, then another two and another two.

The friends I was seeking to protect by sacrificing my life have gained a few minutes at best.

I have no machanical way to defend the area.

With this, I defend the area, as long as those facing me cannot break through my wall of steel, they are stuck, needing to kill me before they move on.

One of the things the system is often critiqued for is not giving a character the ability to defend and area, stopping opponents from just moving past them unimpeded.

What about a talent based on Barrier, when the warrior uses a defensive stance they can create an effective blade barrier, stopping anyone from getting past unless they can overwhelm the defence, doing enough damage to dismiss the barrier.

I reckon the Barrier would be bought with no BODY, you either break through or you don't.  The barrier would also be instant, created anew each phase.

Has someone had this revelation before?  Have I been labouring for rubbish handwoven stuff when I should simply gave been dipping into the powers part of the rules?

Doc

I think the key skill would be PS: Publicist.  🙂

To be honest, it is difficult to know how to answer the question because there is so many different ways to apply judgement.

I don't know how I would judge it today: getting a Nobel prize? Getting the most grant money? Publishing the most papers? Having the most students? Knowing most facts? Got the best lab technique? Made the most insightful connection ever (and how do you judge that?)?

Most often, this kind of thing is being elevated by your peers to the position.  So, President of the Royal Society may be a sign that your peers consider you to be the epitome of science work, incorporating many of the things above.

That kind of thing works in any society with the wherewithal to accommodate a bunch of folk who are allowed to do nothing but think, and that they can communicate about who they think is best.

Doc