Doc Democracy

With an AP attack you don’t absolutely need hardened to avoid the damage.  If I have a character with high defense I can bounce the AP attack.   A character with 30 resistant defense that is not hardened will take absolutely no BODY from a 2 1/2D6 AP KA.  That same character will take 2 BODY on the average from a 2d6 PEN killing attack.  I roll 12 for the BODY the minimum BODY become 4.   The only way to avoid the minimum BODY is with impenetrable (or Damage Negation).  I could have a character with 300 points of DEF and they still take the minimum damage.   To avoid the average damage from the 2 1/2D6 AP KA I only need 18 points of DEF.   Your normal defenses are a partial defense against an AP attack.   
 
PEN is actually much more efficient at getting damage through high defense especially on lower dice attacks.  If it was the same cost as AP (+1/4) it would too effective and would become the default.    
 

I find myself with less sympathy for those pining for the days when "our thing" was special and pointed at and laughed at.  I think I am happier with more people who are comfortable with superhero and gaming references, not least the appearance of NPC as a concept in random social media conversations.  I think there is more stuff for me to cherry pick and live off than in the old days when everything was specialist, expensive or home-made.
 
Obviously there are the issues like complete canon and I take great pleasure in educating newbies in the tyrrany of continuity.  I have been there, pined for completeness and then come out the other side, looking for complete stories that can exist.  I love asking those saying that batman should kill the Joker whether they would be happy knowing there would never be another joker story?  Some are but the majority want more stuff to watch and read.  Joker's continued existence is purely by commercial demand, not from any inherent flaw in Batman's priniciples or society as a whole. 
 
I want lots of stories, I want good complex series.  I am content for those stories to be coherent within themselves and owe no continuity to previous stories or to limit future stories by what they reveal.  I guess that is why I drifted into almost exclusively reading old stuff and Elseworlds stories.
 
However, the more people there are involved and interested, the more people there are who are likely to create in this space and, even if 90% of that is dross, it is still likely to be more than I had growing up.
 

Doc

West of Scotland exports rain. They have rain mines.

Doc Democracy and I know a simple real world solution to the question.
Move to England and wait for it to rain.....

Going to jump the shark....
 
I propose Summon.  Create the most passive, non aggressive Water Elemental.  It appears, goes to where you want it and stays there.  All it has is size.  Should be pretty cheap....
 
🙂
 
Doc

I find myself with less sympathy for those pining for the days when "our thing" was special and pointed at and laughed at.  I think I am happier with more people who are comfortable with superhero and gaming references, not least the appearance of NPC as a concept in random social media conversations.  I think there is more stuff for me to cherry pick and live off than in the old days when everything was specialist, expensive or home-made.
 
Obviously there are the issues like complete canon and I take great pleasure in educating newbies in the tyrrany of continuity.  I have been there, pined for completeness and then come out the other side, looking for complete stories that can exist.  I love asking those saying that batman should kill the Joker whether they would be happy knowing there would never be another joker story?  Some are but the majority want more stuff to watch and read.  Joker's continued existence is purely by commercial demand, not from any inherent flaw in Batman's priniciples or society as a whole. 
 
I want lots of stories, I want good complex series.  I am content for those stories to be coherent within themselves and owe no continuity to previous stories or to limit future stories by what they reveal.  I guess that is why I drifted into almost exclusively reading old stuff and Elseworlds stories.
 
However, the more people there are involved and interested, the more people there are who are likely to create in this space and, even if 90% of that is dross, it is still likely to be more than I had growing up.
 

Doc

One reason for using CE is that it can have multiple combat effects.   An area filled with water could have multiple effects.  Drowning is an obvious one, but being underwater can also give penalties to running and perception rolls.  Drowning could also be done as point of NND damage with the defense holding your breath.   
 
The real question is what do you want the water to do?   
 

I find myself with less sympathy for those pining for the days when "our thing" was special and pointed at and laughed at.  I think I am happier with more people who are comfortable with superhero and gaming references, not least the appearance of NPC as a concept in random social media conversations.  I think there is more stuff for me to cherry pick and live off than in the old days when everything was specialist, expensive or home-made.
 
Obviously there are the issues like complete canon and I take great pleasure in educating newbies in the tyrrany of continuity.  I have been there, pined for completeness and then come out the other side, looking for complete stories that can exist.  I love asking those saying that batman should kill the Joker whether they would be happy knowing there would never be another joker story?  Some are but the majority want more stuff to watch and read.  Joker's continued existence is purely by commercial demand, not from any inherent flaw in Batman's priniciples or society as a whole. 
 
I want lots of stories, I want good complex series.  I am content for those stories to be coherent within themselves and owe no continuity to previous stories or to limit future stories by what they reveal.  I guess that is why I drifted into almost exclusively reading old stuff and Elseworlds stories.
 
However, the more people there are involved and interested, the more people there are who are likely to create in this space and, even if 90% of that is dross, it is still likely to be more than I had growing up.
 

Doc

I find myself with less sympathy for those pining for the days when "our thing" was special and pointed at and laughed at.  I think I am happier with more people who are comfortable with superhero and gaming references, not least the appearance of NPC as a concept in random social media conversations.  I think there is more stuff for me to cherry pick and live off than in the old days when everything was specialist, expensive or home-made.
 
Obviously there are the issues like complete canon and I take great pleasure in educating newbies in the tyrrany of continuity.  I have been there, pined for completeness and then come out the other side, looking for complete stories that can exist.  I love asking those saying that batman should kill the Joker whether they would be happy knowing there would never be another joker story?  Some are but the majority want more stuff to watch and read.  Joker's continued existence is purely by commercial demand, not from any inherent flaw in Batman's priniciples or society as a whole. 
 
I want lots of stories, I want good complex series.  I am content for those stories to be coherent within themselves and owe no continuity to previous stories or to limit future stories by what they reveal.  I guess that is why I drifted into almost exclusively reading old stuff and Elseworlds stories.
 
However, the more people there are involved and interested, the more people there are who are likely to create in this space and, even if 90% of that is dross, it is still likely to be more than I had growing up.
 

Doc

When you have provable deities that hand out magic to their followers, the relationship is now inevitably going to be transactional rather than faith-based.  Their followers will do (or not do) things the god wants only in proportion to the benefits it offers (or punishments it withholds), and if the deal isn't satisfactory they'll find another god offering a more attractive deal.  Even if you've got some sort of divine serfdom system going where mortals are trapped by birth and can't easily change from one deity to another, they can still deny worship and refuse to obey if their god's demands are too exacting - which presumably weakens the deity and leaves them open to their rivals, who are certainly going to be interested in poaching followers in serf-worshipper situation.
 
Whole lot of problems waiting for deities who prove themselves.  Familiarity breeds contempt and exploitation, not blind faith.
 
The obscure Nexus: the Infinite City RPG had a good spin on this.  The game setting is a pandimensional metropolis where lots of deities try to operate, but the only ones that succeed understand how to bargain with worshippers and market themselves on a competitive market.  One of the most popular gods is Stleb, a cosmic horror/vampire worm thing that understands publicity and market trends well enough that it out-competes almost all the nicer gods by offering reliable healing, warding, and luck services - all for the low cost of what amounts to a harmless blood donation. It even splits the take with the Red Cross, who act as its collection and fulfillment agency in partnership with Stleb's priests.

In a fantasy setting where the powers that be routinely intervene in mortal affairs religions are likely to be very different than they are in the real world.  In the real world proving what a god wants or even if they exist is often difficult that does not need to be the case in a fantasy world.  If a good god grants healing powers to his clerics and tells them to go heal the sick, they are going to do it.  If the deity does not want his clerics charging the poor for healing them they will not charge people for it.  If they try doing so the deity is not going to grant them the power to heal.  
 
 
Trying to make a profit off of religion does not work when the deity in question comes down and tells his “followers” to stop doing that.  So, while historically religions may charge for services that may not be true in a fantasy world.   In some cases it may be, but that depends on the nature of the deity.   If a deity wants his followers to be charitable and help others they will. 

As the saying goes, "We still know where the pitchforks are."
 
But societal collapse has never been a salutary experience for the bulk of the people involved, whatever started it and whoever perpetrated it. Mobs will turn on whoever they decide is to blame, whether they're responsible or not. People will flock to whoever appears strong enough to offer them security. Such "strong men" are usually ruthless and exploitive, and often ambitious, prompting factional violence over remaining resources. Much knowledge, practical, historical, artistic and philosophical, is lost in the chaos.
 
Something better may eventually emerge, but if it happened today it's unlikely our children and grandchildren will live to see it.

I am with Doc D (which, honestly, is not unusual in most things):  you are setting up a bleak, must-lose-and-endure-anyway campaign, and as a thought exercise, it can be a lot of fun.
 
As a gaming experience, though, it's kind of depressing.  Most choices will be centered on minimizing attrition by horrible means, and victory conditions are "continuing to inflict the horrors of the world on as many people as possible for as long as possible," even while knowing that the survivors probably won't stay alive anyway.
 
It's hard to get stoked for.
 
However, the last couple of decades have seen a shift in society that makes me crave societal collapse through global peasant uprising, wherein the richest world controllers and other cash sinkholes are stung up by the ankles and beaten like stainless steel pinatas, followed by a mass exodus from business, reliance on anything,that costs money they will,never have, etc-
 
People start ripping up pavement and planting food.  Society is for the middle,and,upper class, and built,on the backs,of,the day-to-day grunt.
 
What happens globally,when they have all had enough of supporting the non-contributors, and simply stop?
 
Besides, they have better odds of living through this one.

That fact that both approaches work fine is a real selling point of HERO.
 
Mechanically, the barrier option could be stuck in a multipower if you wanted so you could make ice (solid, so decent DEF) and steam (a heat damage area damage effect) out of your water if it fits the power/spell concept.  That would be kind of neat. 

I think a big problem with gaming in the transition is that it is about minimising loss and suffering rather than stopping it. 
 
Getting players feeling happy that they only lost 45% of those they were protecting, rather than all of them, is a tough gig.
 
It would be a campaign filled with loss and suffering, you would need to work hard to avoid it being grim and depressing.
 
I think that is why post-apocalypse is more popular, there is hope and progress to chase after.

I would be content with creating a barrier of water.  I would be content with the SFX being "water" and applying the usual environmental effects.  It would be DEF 0 with enough BODY to soak up damage, should people decide to try destroying it rather than swimming through.
 
If the barrier was in a hole, then once the DEF of the barrier was overcome, the water would still exist and fill the hole.
 
Doc

I agree with all of the things in the original post.  All of them ruin fantasy for me.  Another is this:
 
Treating magic as just technology or science we don't yet understand instead of... magic.  Its not science its outside science.  If it loses that magical feel of the supernatural and the impossible brought to life, it stops feeling magical.  Don't explain it too much or the magic goes away.

I was one of the contributors and playtesters for 5E D&D for WotC from the beginning and the first half of the edition cycle, and what you have said about D&D being more confusing than Hero System is spot on. Hero System, learn the rules and put some effort into really learning character creation and your done. In D&D, everything works differently, every class ability, spell, racial ability, magic item, and monster. Each has statistics, just like Hero System, but each also has the dreaded text to be interpreted, misinterpreted, misconstrued, and the second paragraph, the one that has the negative, always gets forgotten by the player and you have to go and look it up, and interpret it, misinterpret it, etc. D&D/Pathfinder appear to have a million options, but if you have to take them to keep up with the neverending encounter scale and the rest of the party, are the really options? If 80% of the advanced paths and feats for martial characters require either Power Attack or Weapon Focus, then is it really an option. If there are a million different choices that will never get chosen, then they are just noise. I will take the system that lets me and my players build exactly what we want, learn one system for everything, and the system is a formula that is consistent in nearly everything in the game. 

How did you know my wife had a corgi??
 

Ach - I have tried Discord so many times and bounced off it every time.  It feels chaotic to me and cannot understand its value over a forum like this.  I guess I am old now and cannot get my head round these new-fangled things.  😞 The shame is that the community is so small now that the spread cross different platforms dilutes the community further.

I've often thought about cribbing and modding some ideas from Amber Diceless for D&D-ish character generation.  Give everyone in the group (say) 100 currency points/quatloos/gamebucks/whatever for a budget, then put one stat at a time up for auction, each with a number of values (running intermittently from maybe 6 to 18) equal to the number of players and auction each value off.  Do that one attribute at a time in whatever order amuses you.  Highest final bid takes the highest attribute value on offer, and so on down the spread.
 
For extra spice don't offer the same value spread for each attribute - maybe there's no 18 at all for one attribute, or nothing below a 12 for another - but don't let anyone know what spread is available in advance.  Offer some other perks (an innate spell, noble heritage, extra HPs, etc.) at the end of the stat auction for people who have some leftover points, but don't let them know what they are or how many there are until each comes up to auction - just that there will be something else to spend on beyond stats at the end.
 
Not quite as evil as Amber, but watching the psychology of bidding is a game unto itself.  Way more fun than set arrays.  Be sure to emphasize that whatever's currently on auction is the MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN BID ON regardless of what it is.     

And debating the finer points of whether we know less than we think....

I solved that by making wizards pay only for the capacity to cast spells of a certain power level, but the spells themselves are purchased with money or discovered like any other equipment.  Then I added in many martial arts packages and talents that people can buy to be better with their equipment and/or spells.

A fighter does not get a 2d6 HKA by buying a skill level.   They get one for purchasing a sword with cash.  Why cannot a wizard buy a wand that gives him a 2d6 RKA for cash?   There is nothing that states magic items have to be rare and expensive.  The monetary cost of a magic item is not something that is set by the rules.  Your problem is being created by your own house rules.  From a game mechanic standpoint, a bow and a wand of magic missiles will cost similar points.   
 
Most FH characters I have seen eventually get magic items.  The most common magic items seem to be weapons and armor.  Logically caster focused items should be more common.  In most campaigns it is spell casters that create items.  Why are they creating so many items for other types of characters instead of for themselves?
 
Also, if casters are creating the magic items why cannot a PC caster create their own magic items?  Doing so might require a skill.  So, if the PC caster buys the equivalent of inventor, they might be able to create their own magic items.  If this is the case the caster is actually has the advantage.