rules design Could Rules for Hero Gaming System Be Getting To Complicated?

[Gauntlet]

Just wanted to think as to how players feel about the complexity of Hero Games. I personally like the extra items that you can do with Hero Games and feel it's combat system is one of the best out there. But could character creation be getting up a bit to far? 

 

What do you all think?

[Chris Goodwin]

I think that if anything it's gotten less complicated since, say, third edition.  Mainly from capping Disadplications, changing the way END costs were figured and modified, having more powers (so you wouldn't have to go down rabbit holes to create certain effects) and in 6e, eliminating Figured Characteristics. 

 

YMMV on whether anyone in particular agrees with or likes the changes, but they're less complicated than they used to be.  (And I'll note that back in the 80's we didn't have software for building characters with; we had to scrawl them out on cave walls by lamplight from a lamp made out of a rock and animal fat.)

[LoneWolf]

For the most part the system is modular enough that it does not have to be that complex.  By choosing which optional rules to use the GM can control how complicated the game gets.  So, really the game is only as complicated as the GM makes it.  Most Hero veterans like complicated games.  

 

As to character creation that is going to depend on the nature of the campaign.  A Champions campaign is probably going to the most complicated for character creation, whereas a science fiction game will probably be the least complicated.  A Fantasy Hero is probably somewhere in between.   Superheroes tend to have more unique powers, so each character has to be created from the ground up.  A character in a science fiction campaign is usually choosing from existing material so has less unique content.  In a science fiction campaign the GM usually creates the races and technology, so the players are simply choosing from a list of option.  A Fantasy Hero game will be similar to the science fiction game except spell caster may be creating spells.  Most GM have some guidelines on how magic works so it will be less complicated than creating superpowers, but more than just choosing of a list of technology and races.  There will of course be exception to the rule based on the campaign the GM is running.  

 

I don’t think you can really have a decent superhero game without having a complicated character creation process.  There are just too many different character concepts in this type of game.  When the game has to be able accommodate aliens, super science, mutant, ninja and magic it is going to get messy.  
 

[Grailknight]

Hero is not overly complicated. It is overly frontloaded. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I wouldn't say that the rules have gotten more complicated, they've just gotten really specific and try to cover every contingency rather than leaving it up to the GM.  I noticed after 6th came out I was looking stuff up in the book all the time instead of just winging it -- and finding I was almost always doing it according to Hoyle just from experience and common sense.

[unclevlad]

Front-loaded is probably the better general description.  

 

Were I to simplify...

a) genre segregation.  How often does anyone in comics or supers lit, use Gestures or Incants, for example?  There's MANY genre-specific fringe benefits.  OTOH, for classic fantasy, who needs Computer stuff?

b)  eliminate or simplify the more esoteric and complex advantages/limitations;  my 2 are Charges (simplify) and Damage Over Time (eliminate, at least from core)

c)  bases and vehicles...eliminate from core, put into a supplement.  The stuff here is rather sparse.

d)  skills...in supers at least, do we really need Transport Fam, Weapon Fam, Combat Pilot, Combat Drive, Weaponsmith, Animal Handling...as the complex skills they are?

e)  do we need 600 languages, MANY of which are incredibly narrow?

f)  powers...not that many major changes.  The big one's Transform, because I hate how it becomes the "I dunno how to do it right, so...Transform!" default.  I would reconsider defenses, as we've been discussing with the whole AP/hardened and penetrating/impen posts.  There's at least 2 powers that, in 6E, are derived from a combination of a base power and multiple limitations...not necessarily in a good way.  Mind Lock (mental entangle), and Gate (make this one parameterized advantage, where the variable is the size of the opening).  This can influence active point issues and thus END costs, and the impact of limitations, due to the diminishing returns on limitations.  Regen...2 BODY per 6 hours is the same cost as 1 BODY per 5 minutes.  That is so wrong to me.

 

3 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I wouldn't say that the rules have gotten more complicated, they've just gotten really specific and try to cover every contingency rather than leaving it up to the GM.  I noticed after 6th came out I was looking stuff up in the book all the time instead of just winging it -- and finding I was almost always doing it according to Hoyle just from experience and common sense.

 

Which is a problem in some other ways, as certain things get totally buried and can be VERY hard to find.  

[rravenwood]

4 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

(And I'll note that back in the 80's we didn't have software for building characters with; we had to scrawl them out on cave walls by lamplight from a lamp made out of a rock and animal fat.)

...and don't forget the trip uphill through the snow to just GET to the cave!

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, rravenwood said:

...and don't forget the trip uphill through the snow to just GET to the cave!

Uphill all the way...BOTH ways!

[Lord Liaden]

For me, Fifth Edition core rules hit the sweet spot of rules completeness and clarity, while still being an interesting and readily digestible read. 5E Revised went a little farther along that first axis than I liked, but remained manageable. Sixth Edition makes me feel like I'm studying to pass the bar. Even over a decade later, I still haven't read through the whole thing.

[unclevlad]

7 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

YMMV on whether anyone in particular agrees with or likes the changes, but they're less complicated than they used to be.  (And I'll note that back in the 80's we didn't have software for building characters with; we had to scrawl them out on cave walls by lamplight from a lamp made out of a rock and animal fat.)

 

Speak for yourself.

 

I had a spreadsheet for character building...gosh, late 80s, maybe early 90s?  I forget.  Handled figured characteristics, managed Elemental Controls.  I think it derived net movement too.  OK, had to enter advants and limits by hand, but that's easy enough.

 

4 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

For me, Fifth Edition core rules hit the sweet spot of rules completeness and clarity, while still being an interesting and readily digestible read. 5E Revised went a little farther along that first axis than I liked, but remained manageable. Sixth Edition makes me feel like I'm studying to pass the bar. Even over a decade later, I still haven't read through the whole thing.

 

Yeah, it's like 6E contains the rules and all the commentary on the rules...wrapped together.  Which is a big part of why it's so wordy, altho another aspect is that it could desperately use serious editing.

[Tech]

On 11/2/2023 at 10:27 PM, Lord Liaden said:

For me, Fifth Edition core rules hit the sweet spot of rules completeness and clarity, while still being an interesting and readily digestible read. 5E Revised went a little farther along that first axis than I liked, but remained manageable. Sixth Edition makes me feel like I'm studying to pass the bar. Even over a decade later, I still haven't read through the whole thing.

 5th Edition is primarily what our campaign uses, with a mix of 1st-4th thrown in. I would say 6th is slightly more complicated.

[Christopher R Taylor]

If you get the "Complete" versions of the books, you get 4th edition level brevity with 6th edition detail, I think its the best of both worlds.  Could do with a bit better presentation and tone, but they do the job for rules.  Hero's biggest problem is lack of market presence and too few adventures.  We independent people are trying to fill in the gaps, but the company really needs to step up.  You cannot even find Hero on the shelf anywhere, sitting on line and offering POD is not good enough for a game company.

[Scott Ruggels]

Oh, it's not the system that is complicated, because it's the math, that gets complicated. But once character creation is done, Hero just flows, in combat.

[Chris Goodwin]

Weirdly, the things we consistently have to look up are Grabs and Multiple Attack/Combined Attack.  Those are pretty much the only reasons we crack the books open at the table.

[Sketchpad]

I think there could be some streamlining and modernization of the game, but I don't know how simpler it would make Hero. For me, I think the game could use better GM and Player tools beyond HeroDesigner. Like having more accessible sheets for maneuvers, or tables that make the  gamemaster's job a bit easier. 

[Gauntlet]

On 11/9/2023 at 5:46 PM, Sketchpad said:

I think there could be some streamlining and modernization of the game, but I don't know how simpler it would make Hero. For me, I think the game could use better GM and Player tools beyond HeroDesigner. Like having more accessible sheets for maneuvers, or tables that make the  gamemaster's job a bit easier. 

 

There are a few things, though I am not sure if they are exactly what you are looking for. Two of them are the Advance Player's Guide I and II. They do have some interesting ways of utilizing the rules. I also like the Ultimate series of books. There also is the Hero Combat Manager but I kinda feel it is rather convoluted and confusing to easily utilize. 

[Sketchpad]

On 11/11/2023 at 1:04 AM, Gauntlet said:

There are a few things, though I am not sure if they are exactly what you are looking for. Two of them are the Advance Player's Guide I and II. They do have some interesting ways of utilizing the rules. I also like the Ultimate series of books. There also is the Hero Combat Manager but I kinda feel it is rather convoluted and confusing to easily utilize. 

 

Oh, yeah, I have those. I'm thinking something more like official GM Screens for the various types of genres that have the charts needed, and some extra sheets with added info for styles of games. Not character sheets or anything (those should always be downloads), but more like having a list of maneuvers, basics of the system (like damage rules), and even some advanced tables that the GM could use (like vehicle rules, or experience awards). Even having a magnetic speed chart that's wet erase would be pretty cool, and could help new and old GMs.  

[pawsplay]

While I understand some of the advantages of getting rid of Derived Characteristics, it drastically increased the mental load needed to make a simple character.

[unclevlad]

24 minutes ago, pawsplay said:

While I understand some of the advantages of getting rid of Derived Characteristics, it drastically increased the mental load needed to make a simple character.

 

We've talked about this pretty extensively, and you'll get quite a few people who don't agree...at least, making a good character.  Yeah, OK, you probably buy DEX to the OCV and DCV you want, but SPD is still separate, and things like defenses, REC, END, and STUN...well, you might just take what figured gave ya, but that didn't mean it was any good.

 

I'll buy that keeping SPDs down, the figured characteristics could well be at least close to solid values.

[Chris Goodwin]

1 hour ago, pawsplay said:

While I understand some of the advantages of getting rid of Derived Characteristics, it drastically increased the mental load needed to make a simple character.

 

In what way?  It reduces at least a dozen arithmetical operations. 

[Chris Goodwin]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

We've talked about this pretty extensively, and you'll get quite a few people who don't agree...at least, making a good character.  Yeah, OK, you probably buy DEX to the OCV and DCV you want, but SPD is still separate, and things like defenses, REC, END, and STUN...well, you might just take what figured gave ya, but that didn't mean it was any good.

 

I'll buy that keeping SPDs down, the figured characteristics could well be at least close to solid values.

 

Most people bought SPD up rather than let the "wasted" decimal value languish.  You were leaving money on the table if you didn't. 

 

That aside, I would posit that, for instance, the mental load involved in minmaxing your CON alone to the point that the effort needed to figure out the return on saved points in ED, REC, END, and STUN, having been completely eliminated, results in a net reduction in mental load. 

 

In what possible way does the elimination of Figured Characteristics result in an increased mental load, especially in light of the above?  I'm listening.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Chris Goodwin
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[assault]

While pawsplay can speak for himself, there was a simplicity in picking a character's Dex, Con and Sod, taking the resulting figureds and then moving on to powers (including Str and defenses) that was lost. Int, Pre and Com would be handled at the same time as skills. A simple three part process giving a playable first draft 

 

Anything else was fine tuning.

 

Plus Disads/Complications obviously.

[Chris Goodwin]

There's even more simplicity in just buying the DEX, CON, and SPD you want, and then just buying the OCV, DCV, ED, REC, and END (edit: and STUN) you want. 

 

For the life of me I can't figure out how this could possibly be an increased mental load. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Chris Goodwin
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[Khymeria]

Hero System has an intellectual buy-in to open the locks, but once you pick the lock you’re done. Many other systems (looking hard at you d20) have different rules for everything and everything has a description that is open to interpretation. You can’t just read the formula and you need to constantly memorize what you saw and where. 

[Grailknight]

2 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

There's even more simplicity in just buying the DEX, CON, and SPD you want, and then just buying the OCV, DCV, ED, REC, and END (edit: and STUN) you want. 

 

For the life of me I can't figure out how this could possibly be an increased mental load. 

 

Because with Figured Characteristics, you got a baseline to work with. Without that being the intention of the writer's, the rules still hinted that a Brick with STR 65 CON 33 BODY 15 should have REC 20 END 66 STUN 65 at a minimum. Character creation had some built-in paradigms, flawed though they were.

 

6th Edition took those away and gave minimal guidance on what values were common to certain character types. No Characteristic could be assumed adequate at its staring value. I agree that you should have been doing so in the earlier editions also, but it was possible to leave characters like my example with the minimums derived. You can't do that now and have a viable character. It's a small extra step but it is extra.

 

Many of us older players who've been doing this since First Edition do this as second nature. I've got 40+ years of Hero to draw on and I think you have similar experience. I can do Hero without a book. But it doesn't come naturally to newer players, it has to be learned.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Grailknight