The cost of Multiform

[MuensterCheese]

I posted this in the Hero 6th Edition forum, but the Administrator directed me elsewhere:

 

On pages 80-81 of Champions Complete are the following sentences which totally seem to contradict each other.  Please help me determine the cost of Multiform for a 350-point villain robot that can transform into an SUV (which I'm not counting as a regular Vehicle in game terms, but a character vehicle):

 

"The player must choose one of the character's forms (depending on character concept) to be the true form, and the other forms are alternate forms.  Only the true form pays the cost for Multiform, and the true form need not be the most expensive form."

 

So, in math terms, Cost(True form) >= Cost(Alternate form) or Cost(Alternate form) <= Cost(True form)

 

A few paragraphs later, we read, "Alternate forms must be regular characters (not Vehicles, Bases, Computers, Automatons, or the like), and are built on the same Total CP (including Matching Complications) as the true form (or fewer CP, if desired)."

 

In math terms, Cost(True form) >= Cost(Alternate form), but NOT Cost(Alternate form) <= Cost(True form).

 

For my Transformer, it seems like the first sentence will let me choose the robot or the vehicle as the true form, but the second sentence seems to say that only the robot can be the true form.  Which is true?

 

[assault]

Either form can be the true form, subject to character concept.

 

Your "in math terms" comments make no sense, as far as I can see.

 

Villains are usually NPCs outside a villain oriented game, so point costs aren't that big a deal unless you are writing for publication. However, let's assume you are working to a budget.

 

Is the 350 points the cost of the robot form (without multiform), or the cost of the whole character? If the latter, how much does the robot form cost by itself? Also, how much does the SUV form cost (without multiform)?

 

(You can provide rough guesses, of course).

[Old Man]

 

I posted this in the Hero 6th Edition forum, but the Administrator directed me elsewhere:

 

On pages 80-81 of Champions Complete are the following sentences which totally seem to contradict each other.  Please help me determine the cost of Multiform for a 350-point villain robot that can transform into an SUV (which I'm not counting as a regular Vehicle in game terms, but a character vehicle):

 

"The player must choose one of the character's forms (depending on character concept) to be the true form, and the other forms are alternate forms.  Only the true form pays the cost for Multiform, and the true form need not be the most expensive form."

 

So, in math terms, Cost(True form) >= Cost(Alternate form) or Cost(Alternate form) <= Cost(True form)

 

A few paragraphs later, we read, "Alternate forms must be regular characters (not Vehicles, Bases, Computers, Automatons, or the like), and are built on the same Total CP (including Matching Complications) as the true form (or fewer CP, if desired)."

 

In math terms, Cost(True form) >= Cost(Alternate form), but NOT Cost(Alternate form) <= Cost(True form).

 

For my Transformer, it seems like the first sentence will let me choose the robot or the vehicle as the true form, but the second sentence seems to say that only the robot can be the true form.  Which is true?

 

 

I'm away from my copy of CC so I can't actually answer the question, but I see what you're saying.  I suspect there's a copy-and-paste error here.  I dimly recall that in 4th ed the true form had to be the most expensive, but I thought that requirement was repealed in 5th.  Hopefully someone who's sitting next to a copy of Hero 6 can answer more clearly.

[assault]

The issue with the true form having to be the most expensive is that characters have to pay relatively huge amounts of points to turn into a weaker form.

 

The cost of the multiform is based on the cost of the most expensive form.

 

So, the cost of the Hulk being able to turn into Bruce Banner is based on the cost of the Hulk form, which is pretty expensive.

 

Similarly, the cost of Captain Marvel being able to turn into Billy Batson is based on Captain Marvel's cost, rather than Billy's. Worse, in this case, the character spends more time as Billy than as Captain Marvel.

 

Of course in both these cases there are cheaper ways to buy this. In fact, there are relatively few Multiform builds that necessarily need to use Multiform.

 

If it wasn't possible to have a cheaper base form, Multiform wouldn't be used very often. It would be a sub-optimal approach.

[Scott Baker]

P.80 in the power "block" states that the cost is based on the most expensive form.

 

The problem (as supposed by Old Man) is there appears to be bad wording in the paragraph on p.81. Instead of saying, "true form," it should state, "most expensive form." This matches the stated cost and coincides with how the power is built in both 5E and 6E. Of course Derek is the authority here.

 

If you want the official answer, you should do as Steve Long suggested and send a private message to Derek Hiemforth. That way you don't have to wonder whether he has read this thread or not.

[MuensterCheese]

Assault poses some very good questions which I'll attempt to answers.

 

Building a villain with Character Points is my way of helping ensure they can defeat it.  The combined total of my group's heroes is 1000 points, so hopefully making one or two 350-point villains will make for a fight they can win.  "Right?", asks the newbie.

 

So, it seems the cost of Multiform is based on the most expensive form, but only the true form pays it, whether the true form is the most expensive or not.  When I say my transformer is a 350-point character, I really don't know if that includes the cost of Multiform or not.  How would I calculate the total character cost?  Add both characters together (with the Multiform cost)?  I'm new to this and I'm not sure.

 

I do like what Assault said about building the power outside of Multiform, which makes perfect sense.  This robot will have the same STR, DEX, INT, OCV, DCV, and other characteristics no matter which form he's in, so I suppose I would build his powers with the OIAID Limitation (such as not being able to Blast while he's a car).  I could also have him Aid/Boost on himself only for SPD when he's a car because he can drive faster than he can run.  In this way, I wouldn't have to re-buy the characteristics that don't change.  So, thank you Assault, for the neat suggestion!

[Scott Baker]

Multiform is a power the same as any other. Its points are counted. You will have to decide how many points the most expensive form will be. If that happens to be the true form, the cost of multiform will have to come out of those points.

 

 

 

I wouldn't have to re-buy the characteristics that don't change

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you do go the multiform route, you don't re-buy characteristics. Each form is a complete character that pays for their own characteristics. At no point does one form pay the points for characteristics on another form (this excludes the fact that the true form has to purchase the multiform power, but that's not the same thing).

[assault]

 

I could also have him Aid/Boost on himself only for SPD when he's a car because he can drive faster than he can run.

 

I wouldn't do it that way. I'd leave his SPD the same, and buy running "only in vehicle identity". Easier than keeping track of changes in SPD.

[Derek Hiemforth]

P.80 in the power "block" states that the cost is based on the most expensive form.

 

The problem (as supposed by Old Man) is there appears to be bad wording in the paragraph on p.81. Instead of saying, "true form," it should state, "most expensive form." This matches the stated cost and coincides with how the power is built in both 5E and 6E.

 

This is correct.  Alternate forms are built on the same Total CP as the most expensive form (or fewer) [not the same Total CP as the true form (or fewer)].  Sorry about that!    (In my defense, 6E1 makes the same mistake...  )

[Scott Baker]

Thanks for the clarification Derek.

[Gravitron]

Almost everytime I think about using Multi-form I end up asking myself "What am I doing?"

It is usually easier and cheaper to write up with a multipower or disad "Only usable when...".

[assault]

About the only character I've found Multiform useful for is Ultra Boy.

 

Funnily enough, he was apparently one of the inspirations for the Multipower framework in the earliest versions of Champions. The "ultra" slot (original name for "fixed" slot) appears to have been inspired by him.

 

Despite this, Multiform ends up producing a clearer and easier to use model of him, IMHO.

 

He ends up with four forms: vision powers, invulnerability, super strength and super speed. Each is a viable character in its own right.

 

The main problem is: which is the true form? In his first appearance, he only used his vision powers. Later on, he was portrayed as being in his invulnerable form any time he didn't need to use his other powers.

 

Naturally, if you make his invulnerable form his true form, he doesn't end up very invulnerable.

[Doctor Agenda]

Maybe it's different in 6th, but I always thought the true form was fairly arbitrary. You could build the Hulk with a Multiform for Bruce Banner, or Bruce Banner with a Multiform for the Hulk. The Hulk form would only have to pay the cost to turn into Banner, Banner would have to pay the higher cost to turn into the Hulk (some recent depictions of Banner as a Stark-level badass notwithstanding).

[Scott Baker]

Maybe it's different in 6th, but I always thought the true form was fairly arbitrary. You could build the Hulk with a Multiform for Bruce Banner, or Bruce Banner with a Multiform for the Hulk. The Hulk form would only have to pay the cost to turn into Banner, Banner would have to pay the higher cost to turn into the Hulk (some recent depictions of Banner as a Stark-level badass notwithstanding).

If by, "arbitrary," you mean that you can choose any form to be the True Form, you are correct. If you mean that the cost you pay for multiform changes depending on which form is the True Form, that has not changed since 5E. In your example, if Hulk was the higher cost, Multiform would be based on the Hulk's points no matter which form paid for the power. 

[wick]

Why would the characteristics be the same between forms?  I hardly think an SUV would be as strong or durable as the robot.   Just build the robot form with everything besides the multiform and then build the SUV without multiform. once you know how much each form costs you can determine which form pays the multipower and how much you need to pay.

 

Now if the SUV form is as strong, durable, and as armored as the robot form...i.e. it only looks like an SUV. You could just give it a power of extra running with a SFX that it turns into an SUV.  You could also give him a disguise power with limitation to only look like an SUV.  You can still use multiform but it is not really needed if little changes between forms.

[assault]

It's not an ordinary SUV.

 

It makes perfect sense for it to be as tough as the robot, because it is the robot.

 

The ability for it to not be recognised as the same character when it is in different forms is interesting. Disguise doesn't quite feel like the right way to model it, though. In some ways the SUV form is almost a Secret Identity. But that doesn't cover it either. Hmm...

[ghornet]

My friends insist you have to have the Multiform power in all forms or you can't change back. 

[assault]

Not by the book, and a pretty harsh house rule.

[Hyper-Man]

Multiform exacts a hidden cost on any character built with it. 

 

Some of the experience (XP) spent on the forms also has be spent on the Multiform Power of the base form.

[Rebar]

Multiform exacts a hidden cost on any character built with it. 

 

Some of the experience (XP) spent on the forms also has be spent on the Multiform Power of the base form.

Wouldn't exactly call it hidden. And it's not unique.

 

You could say the same thing about a multipower. As you increase the slots beyond starting limits, you will have to put more points into the multipower itself to cover it.

[Scott Baker]

Multiform exacts a hidden cost on any character built with it. 

 

Some of the experience (XP) spent on the forms also has be spent on the Multiform Power of the base form.

You must be referring to the fact that the alternate forms don't gain XP. However, that doesn't mean you "have" to spend points (unless/until your true form is the highest point character). I agree that you will likely "want" to spend points. I can even see situations where some forms never get more powerful--that may not be as likely in a super power game (given this is the Champions forum).

[Cassandra]

For Mulitiform in the 5th Edition, the cost was 1 point for every 5 Points in the new Form.

 

If your alternate form cost 250 Points, then the cost of the Multiform would be 50 Points.

 

You can have 2x alternate forms for 5 points, and can change instantly between forms for another 5 points.

[Scott Baker]

For Mulitiform in the 5th Edition, the cost was 1 point for every 5 Points in the new Form.

 

If your alternate form cost 250 Points, then the cost of the Multiform would be 50 Points.

 

You can have 2x alternate forms for 5 points, and can change instantly between forms for another 5 points.

There's actually a possible discrepancy, looking at the 2 versions.

 

5E 137 - the cost is based on, "the most expensive form."

 

5ER 211 - the power stat block says, "the most expensive form." However the body text says, "the most expensive alternate form." The example then goes back to saying, "the most expensive form." Although in that case the result is the same since the most expensive form is also an alternate form. It is also the same example used in the 5E book.

[ghornet]

Seems to me that "the most expensive alternate form" makes the most sense.  After all that's what you are changing into.  Why should you have to pay extra to beable to change into your true form?

[Scott Baker]

Seems to me that "the most expensive alternate form" makes the most sense.  After all that's what you are changing into.  Why should you have to pay extra to beable to change into your true form?

An alternative view is that since 2 of the 3 specific references to the cost in 5ER say one thing, the inconsistent wording is incorrect/a mistake.

 

I'm not arguing either way, just interpreting what is there.