And Thongor Did Wade Through The Army Like Fecal Matter Through Waterfowl…

[bigdamnhero]

I’m writing a Fantasy Hero convention game, and I want to have a scene where the heroes wade through an army of mooks. But since I reeeealy don’t want to spend the entire 4-hour timeslot on one combat, I want to group the mooks into units and use the Mass Combat rules. This is a mook smackdown, not the climactic battle; so it shouldn’t necessarily be a major challenge, but I don’t want it to feel like a cakewalk either. Assuming they fight smart and roll decently, they should come out the other side victorious but with enough minor damage to make them feel they worked for it.

 

I like the FH Mass Combat rules* on paper, but I haven’t honestly played with them much. They seem to work okay for unit-vs-unit action, but I’m having trouble at the unit-vs-individual level. The PCs here are basically demi-gods, so I’m treating them like “Prominent Characters” ie each PC is their own Army Of One. The mooks are grouped into units of 40, giving them a Unit Modifier of +10, which adds to the unit’s BODY. The PCs' attack & damage rolls are unchanged; so whereas they could probably take out each mook individually in 1-2 shots, in Mass Combat it’ll take them 2-4 hits to take out the Mook Unit. Given that each Turn lasts 90 seconds at this scale, that side works out about right for me.

 

The problems I’m running into are with the Mook Units attacking the PCs:

 

1. The OCV-DCV difference is high enough that the mooks need a good roll to hit. (For purposes of discussion, call it 7-.) In individual combat with 40 mooks each getting in 1-3 attacks, you’d expect maybe a dozen lucky hits. But in Mass Combat, the Unit as a whole will likely only get 2-3 attack rolls in before going down, so odds are long against the PC taking a single hit.

 

2. The PC’s armor is good enough that most mook hits will bounce. Here again, with ~80 individual attacks you’d expect at least a few “crits” to slip a point of Body through here and there. Normally in Mass Combat you add the Unit Modifier to their Damage** but FH says not to do this against Prominent Characters. And it’s easy to see why: adding +10 to the Unit’s Damage rolls makes even a couple lucky hits potentially fatal! But without giving the unit some kind of damage bonus, they have almost zero chance of getting any BODY through even if they do manage to land a lucky hit.

 

Cake, meet walk.

 

So I’m looking for some middle-ground that gives the Unit a non-trivial chance of inflicting some minor damage on the PCs. I thought about converting the Unit Mod into Active Points, so the +10 buys you +2 DCs? Or maybe splitting the Unit Modifier, applying half as a CSL, and adding the other half to damage? +5 to hit and +5 to damage feels manageable in this scenario, but I don't know how well it'd work as a general rule. Or…some variation on Penetrating? I dunno.

 

But I figured I can’t be the only person to have struggled with this so…I come to you, Herodom Assembled. If you’ve used the Mass Combat rules, how have you handled this? And if you haven’t, what do you think? Thanks,

 

* BTW, the Mass Combat haven’t changed from 5ed to 6ed, so let’s not even go there.

** Yes, technically you add the difference between the two Unit's Unit Mods, but since the PCs have a Unit Mod of +0 it amounts to the same thing.

[Steve]

Maybe you could make the mook hits Penetrating, allowing a little damage to leak through.

 

As far as CVs, perhaps you could add +1 to +5 to their OCV, depending on their level of mookness. Most units would get one or two bonus just from sheer numbers, but there might be some "elite mook" units that go as high as five.

 

The image I'm getting is Sauron batting aside the opposition.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Try a few rounds of mass combat if you haven't before, its surprising how effective the mooks can be if massed up enough.

[Lucius]

I have NOT used the Mass Combat rules, but I'll throw my idea in anyway.

 

Try putting the whole combat in the hands of the players, so to speak. Say "With this many people trying to kill you, they WILL hit you at least twice a turn unless you make a 'saving throw.'" (you don't have to use the word "saving throw" but the idea is, the mooks don't even get to roll to hit, the players get to roll to avoid being hit.)

 

 

Saving throw = target's DCV + Resistant DEF - 1 for every 5 active fighters in the engaging unit.

Modify to taste.

 

Give them two saving throws per turn (I'm assuming "mooks" are SPD 2; basically, the heroes get a saving throw for every attack their opponents get) and then if the roll fails, they can spend an action to get another one at a penalty. Let them choose the order they want to make rolls in; if one is SPD 4 for example, that player can make four attacks in a row, and then only gets two rolls to defend; or they can start with defending rolls and then use the rest of their phases to attack. I hope I'm being clear here, please ask if I'm not getting my meaning across.

 

If the defense roll fails, do max damage for the weapon type ("Of course dozens of lesser blows were turned by your armor or parried by your superior skill, this is the one strike one of them gets in with a chance of damaging you!") and then let the player mitigate it. Roll for hit location if you're using that rule but if it's to Head or Vitals allow a Luck roll (give them an extra 2d6) to evade it ("Guess that one missed after all! Got you shield in the way.") Apply Defenses, then let them shave the damage down:

 

Make a CON or EGO roll: "Shrug off the pain, ignore the STUN damage."

 

Make a Tactics roll (give everyone at least 8 for this): "Took the brunt of it on armor or shield, halve the damage."

 

Make a PS: Warrior (or equivalent) roll: "You've taken worse, that's not so bad. Halve the damage (again if the Tactic roll worked)"

 

 

My guess is that after subtracting Defenses and getting at least two chances after that to halve the damage, the heroes will come through bloodied but not too badly.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says, but what do we know?

[IndianaJoe3]

You could always have each opposing character represent multiple mooks. For example, an, "opponent" with 10 BODY is represented by 5 mooks. Every 2 BODY it takes drops one of the mooks. A really good hit drops more than one.

[bigdamnhero]

Maybe you could make the mook hits Penetrating, allowing a little damage to leak through.

 

As far as CVs, perhaps you could add +1 to +5 to their OCV, depending on their level of mookness. Most units would get one or two bonus just from sheer numbers, but there might be some "elite mook" units that go as high as five.

I thought about Penetrating, but I can't figure out a simple way to scale it, ie how does a 30-figure Unit's Penetration value different from a 100-figure Unit of the same characters? Similarly, I agree some level of OCV boost is what I'm looking for, but am unsure how it ties to unit size. Their "mookiness" (great word BTW!) is already reflected in their base combat scores, so it's a question of how 100 are better than 30 which are better than 10.

 

Another possibility I considered is to let Units use the Multiple Attacker rule when fighting individuals: the individual suffers DCV penalties up to 1/2 their DCV. You could argue that after a certain point it doesn't really matter how many people are in the Unit, since only a limited number can attack the individual character at once anyway. Everyone after that first rank is just "reinforcements" waiting until the front rank goes down.

 

Try putting the whole combat in the hands of the players, so to speak. Say "With this many people trying to kill you, they WILL hit you at least twice a turn unless you make a 'saving throw.'" (you don't have to use the word "saving throw" but the idea is, the mooks don't even get to roll to hit, the players get to roll to avoid being hit.)

Interesting idea. I was kinda hoping not to have to build an entire new combat system, but I might play around with this a bit.

 

You could always have each opposing character represent multiple mooks. For example, an, "opponent" with 10 BODY is represented by 5 mooks. Every 2 BODY it takes drops one of the mooks. A really good hit drops more than one.

Well if I understand you, that's basically how the mass combat rules work now: more mooks in the Unit are represented by additional BODY. So that part already works for me. The part I'm wrestling with is the mooks' inability to hit/hurt the PCs, which under RAW actually decreases when you group them together, since they don't get any kind of bonus, but they get fewer attack rolls.

[Markdoc]

I'm at work right now (coffee break!) so don't have access to my stuff, but I have used a simple home-brewed mass combat system for years, which would seem to answer your problem. It goes like this: 

First, use the 3d6 probablity curve to calculate the chance to hit, exactly as you do for a single character. So if you need 11- to hit, you have a 62.5% chance to hit. If you need an 8-, you have a 25.9% chance to hit.

Second – for mooks or other mass combatants – simply calculate number of attacks, and multiply them by the percent chance. You don’t actually roll. 

So, 20 mooks shooting at the PC, needing an 8- to hit: 20 x .26 = 5 hits on average. Just roll 5 hits.

 

Now, I don’t bother to calculate all this on the fly. Instead, I made a simple table (Edit - now available in downloads at : http://www.herogames.com/forums/files/file/207-mook-hit/)

 

You can read the table as “roll needed to hit”, going down and “Number of attacks” going across. 

So 20 mooks needing an 8- to hit, you just choose the “8-“ row and read across to “20” attackers – you can see that 5 hits are listed. You can use this for any number simply by adding the “Number of attacks, so if the PCs kill 5 of the mooks who were attacking and there are 15 left, you read across to the “5” column (1 hit) and the “10” column (3 hits) for 4 hits in total.

 

This has the advantage that it is simply using the Hero system rules so you can apply all mod.s (cover, distance, dodges, prone, whatever) directly. It’s just OCV vs DCV, exactly as usual. If the 20 mooks (OCV 4) are attacking Thongor the Mighty (DCV6) and Greycat the Sneaky (DCV9) you simply read off 10 attackers at 9- for Throngor (4 hits) and 10 attackers at 6- for Greycat (1 hit).

 

The rolling for damage (and hit locations if you use them) adds enough randomness to the system, and to the players the fact that you are using a table is entirely invisible: to them, it feels like they are playing regular combat, and the number of hits they take can be modified by their own actions exactly as normal. If Thongor is taking too many hits he can dodge, move around combat levels, etc. to adjust his DCV, etc and he’ll get exactly the benefit he should. Likewise, if something affects the mooks – positively or negatively, that also has the effect it should . For autofire attacks, all the mooks get 1 attack at their normal OCV, and then 1 (or more ) at -2, -4, etc. You can also use this system for NPCs vs NPC – for example big fights where the PCs are leading a group of soldiers against the enemy, for example: I don’t actually roll all those dice – this gives me a quick readout of how fast people on both sides are falling.

 

The number of rolls you have to make as a GM is quite manageable: I’ve used this system to put the PCs in epic battles, where they are facing off against whole companies of soldiers and got the whole lot done in an evening.

 

For those who like to look behind the curtain, obviously, since this is calculated off the normal Hero probability curve, the odds of success are close to what you’d expect if you actually rolled every attack. Close, but not exactly the same. To make the table quick and easy, I have only used whole figures (no 2.5 hits, etc) That means that the odds of hitting are slightly higher than they would be, because of rounding. The difference is small, and since mooks die in droves, that’s not actuallyproven to be  a problem: I’m just sayin’

 

cheers, Mark

[bluesguy]

Mark,

 

Brilliant!  When you get a chance can you put your spreadsheet up in the downloads area and then provide us with a link. 

[bigdamnhero]

Interesting idea, and I'd definitely like to see/hear more!

 

The only catch I can see is, assuming I'm understanding you correctly, it assume all the mooks are able to attack the individual each Phase? That might make sense in ranged combat, but in melee combat only a handful should be able to attack at a time.

[Markdoc]

Interesting idea, and I'd definitely like to see/hear more!

 

The only catch I can see is, assuming I'm understanding you correctly, it assume all the mooks are able to attack the individual each Phase? That might make sense in ranged combat, but in melee combat only a handful should be able to attack at a time.

Agreed - in melee combat, no more than 6 - fewer if they cannot completely surround the PC. I more or less took that for given : )

 

Cheers, Mark

[Christopher R Taylor]

The system markdoc offers looks viable and a lot less work than the Mass Combat System (MCS) in the rules.  

 

However I like the shifting time system in the current MCS: the larger the numbers, the longer the time period each segment takes.  This abstracts the combat a bit more - lots of stuff going on that isn't represented each phase - so that large units actually can all contribute to the combat at once, instead of using spacing and other logical rules.

 

However, some sort of rules for formations should be in place as well; for example the Napoleonic French formation had a lot of presence (looked terrifying) but didn't have a lot of firepower because only the first few rows could fire and it was long rather than wide.  The British formations looked flimsy (3 rows deep and wide) but were more lethal because all the rows could fire.  So it was this:

 

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::   ---> enemy

French formation

 

vs this:

 

::

::

:: ---> enemy

::

::

British Formation

 

And it all came down to leadership and morale: if the British could hold the line long enough to slaughter enough Frenchmen that they broke and fled, the British won.

 

Other formation concepts such as the phalanx, the shield wall and so on should be simulated in the rules, too.  If you wanted to be really complete about it

[pinecone]

You might try making the Mooks into "swarm" critters with a small autofire Pen attack, so as the roll gets better more little wounds appear.

 

"Mob" Body 15 (5 Mooks) HKA D6 Pen Autofire OCV 4 DCV (4) 1 Lim: Large (fills 2.5 to 5 hexes) 360 degree vision, loses 1 mook per 3 Body taken...?

 

So 25 Soldiers is 5 "Mobs"...?

 

 

Late entry: Oh and I would limit the autofire to "does not exceed number of mooks"

[Markdoc]

The system markdoc offers looks viable and a lot less work than the Mass Combat System (MCS) in the rules.  

 

However I like the shifting time system in the current MCS: the larger the numbers, the longer the time period each segment takes.  This abstracts the combat a bit more - lots of stuff going on that isn't represented each phase - so that large units actually can all contribute to the combat at once, instead of using spacing and other logical rules.

 

However, some sort of rules for formations should be in place as well; for example the Napoleonic French formation had a lot of presence (looked terrifying) but didn't have a lot of firepower because only the first few rows could fire and it was long rather than wide.  The British formations looked flimsy (3 rows deep and wide) but were more lethal because all the rows could fire.  So it was this:

 

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::   ---> enemy

French formation

 

vs this:

 

::

::

:: ---> enemy

::

::

British Formation

 

And it all came down to leadership and morale: if the British could hold the line long enough to slaughter enough Frenchmen that they broke and fled, the British won.

Not actually true. Both British and French (and indeed, all European armies of the period) stood on the defence and performed slow advance in line, to maximise firepower. Also both employed columns for rapid advance (as indeed did all major European armies). This is just practical - it's far easier to get 30 guys running or jogging in a line, than 200. The only difference in battle orders between British and French armies was a French deployment for the advance called l'ordre mixte, which included both columns and line. It was rarely used, as far as we can tell, with French battalions forming up in either line or column, just like their British foes.

 

The difference was purely one of tactics. The British army of the time was smaller than its continental opponent, but famous for the amount of range practice required and resulting firepower. A british regiment of line was reckoned to put out 2-4x the firepower of most opposing forces. Not surprisingly, British tactical doctrine emphasised defence and slow advance tactics, to maximise their strengths. In contrast, the French army were faced with fighting on multiple fronts against numerically superior foes. Their tactical doctrine thus favoured a swift close, and breaking the enemy and not surprisingly emphasised speed and concentration of force. So it's true that the column was used more by the French. But it's not true that it was their primary formation or used because it looked impressive. It was used because it was the fastest way to get into bayonet range, which is where their regular troops excelled.

 

In Hero system, you can get the effect of formations simply by applying common sense: close order means that each soldier is protected (in the sense that nobody can get get around/behind them) by the ones either side. That way, you ensure each soldier only has to fight one foe, and you put your best guys in the front. Open order allows you to use cover and move through obstructions easier, but doesn't work well against close order because they can put 2 or 3 guys onto each one of yours. A phalanx - with appropriate weapons - lets the guys in the middle ranks fight too, albeit at a penalty. A line maximises firepower and the area you can protect, but is vulnerable to being broken through: kill 3 guys in a line 3 deep and you're through. A column charging 20 deep is likely to achieve that, if it is supported, simply due to local weight of numbers. And you don't want guys behind you in Hero system combat any more than you do in real life.

 

So there is nothing magical about formations: they're simply a question of local tactical placement. You don't really need to make up bonuses to make historical formations provide the same advantages or disadvantages that they did in real life.

 

Morale on the other hand is important and has not been specifically addressed. But again, I simply use regular Hero system rules. Any time things look a bit dodgy, I simply allow attackers to make a PRE attack (unit to unit). In the NPC generators, I usually give veteran warriors PRE boosts for this reason. So, a Veteran guard unit (PRE 15) gets 3d6 base, plus a d6 for reputation, giving them a 4d6 base "morale'". By itself, that's not going to do much, but once you start stacking battlefield modifiers (violent actions, inspiring leaders, foes in retreat, superior combat prowess/equipment etc) you can easily push this into 8-10 d6 territory, which is enough that opposing units start to degrade quickly. Even ignoring other effects, EGO+10 means that units can only take half actions in the next phase, and act after attackers, EGO+20 means they lose an action. Both of those are huge combat disadvantages - and most soldiers who percieve that they are at a disadvantage will retreat, or (more usually) run. Heroes like the PCs gain an additional battlefield role by being able to boost morale with inspiring speeches or actions.

 

Cheers, Mark

[bigdamnhero]

You might try making the Mooks into "swarm" critters with a small autofire Pen attack, so as the roll gets better more little wounds appear.

 

"Mob" Body 15 (5 Mooks) HKA D6 Pen Autofire OCV 4 DCV (4) 1 Lim: Large (fills 2.5 to 5 hexes) 360 degree vision, loses 1 mook per 3 Body taken...?

 

So 25 Soldiers is 5 "Mobs"...?

Treating them like a swarm is brilliant, and wins the simplicity award (which is particularly important for con games). It also takes the design focus off "how tough should 25 mooks be?" and restores it to "how tough do I want these 25 mooks to be?" which is much more appropriate for Hero.

 

Morale on the other hand is important and has not been specifically addressed. But again, I simply use regular Hero system rules.

Same here, which is why I hadn't brought it up.

 

As another option: I have a couple of times used a spreadsheet-driven mass combat system, where the PCs make 1 Turn's worth of rolls all at once, and then I enter them into a spreadsheet that randomly generates NPC attack & damage rolls. How many NPCs can attack at once is partly determined by how effectively the PCs' attacks are. The spreadsheet then outputs a Turn Summary, which I then narrate as "John mows down 4 plant men, and gets hit twice for a total of X Body and Y Stun." Worked pretty well for a home game, but not as well the one time I tried to use it for a con game. (Note to self: I should probably dust that off and post here for feedback.)

[pinecone]

Cool, I've mostly used this for Zombie Mobs, and Mooks in wild MA games, but I think it'll do for a "Warm up, and show off" senario.