Friend or Foe: Summoning and in game reasons for the Daemons attitude

[Wardsman]

The mechanics are meta. But we often use them represent something in game.

What does the differing attitudes of the summoned entity represent in your game.

 

Obviously in a game where spells are ordered or ranked by AP and real cost, spells that summon pissed off things will be a lower rank than equivalent spells that summon the same thing in a friendly mode.

 

Do you have the better attitude built as a naked advantage in a focus(material component)?

 

How does this flesh out in your worlds?

[eepjr24]

When summoning unfriendly beings (which honestly is pretty rare), the players generally do their best to make sure to have something on hand to placate the being. That is mechanically not the same as buying the "friendly" naked advantage in a foci, although one could certainly do that as well. It is just simple interactions to smooth the process. Sometimes it means they have to fight the entity to get it to do what they want. Or to stop it from doing something they don't want. Sometimes it means doing a quest to get something the entity wants. 

 

- E

[akrippler]

When summoning unfriendly beings (which honestly is pretty rare), the players generally do their best to make sure to have something on hand to placate the being. That is mechanically not the same as buying the "friendly" naked advantage in a foci, although one could certainly do that as well. It is just simple interactions to smooth the process. Sometimes it means they have to fight the entity to get it to do what they want. Or to stop it from doing something they don't want. Sometimes it means doing a quest to get something the entity wants. 

 

- E

 

Agreed, I also think of the standard summon a demon but have a separate power magic circle already built and ready for the demon.   Gives you a large bargaining chip considering its the demon form of holding a gun to their head. 

[bluesguy]

In my world one type of magic is all based on the special effect of 'summoning' things using Kachinas.  In some cases the meta effect is an actual summon.  In those cases the creatures are generally friendly to the caster because in fact the creature isn't some poor hapless entity living its life before the summoner grabbed them from their regular life and forced them to the caster's location.  In this case the Kachina 'grows' into a full sized entity with a 'generic' Kachina personality and motivation. 

 

One of my players uses this type of magic and her favorite thing to summon is a Nataska, which are a kind of ogre.  We (the entire group) has given her summoned Nataskas a personality and motivations which has been fun.

[eepjr24]

Agreed, I also think of the standard summon a demon but have a separate power magic circle already built and ready for the demon.   Gives you a large bargaining chip considering its the demon form of holding a gun to their head. 

Assuming it is a being that you know proper binding and power circle spells for, this is ideal. =) When the creature is part of a plot point, that may or may not be an option for the party.

 

Depending on the campaign, though, even having that knowledge can get you into trouble, you demon mage!

 

- E

[Wardsman]

All good points so far. Let me throw this at you.

 

• Agathodaemon
• Eudaemon
• Cacodaemon

I expect the D&D crowd to recognize that last one.

 

In the game, In Nomine, you could summon Demons by they don't like you. But you could command them.

Angels on the other hand could be summoned but not commanded.

Sounds like demons are Antagonistic while Angels are strong willed if you mimic that system.

 

Time to build sme mythology. Who likes man and who does not.

[eepjr24]

It sounds like both of them are neutral summons, without Amicable. The demons might have weak willed, the angels may have strong willed. Or you may just build them with the appropriate levels of EGO, up to you.

 

- E

[Lord Liaden]

One can also use the Amicable Advantage as a different measure for the degree of control one has over the Summoned entity. In that case it wouldn't represent the creature's attitude toward the summoner, so much as the level of mental compulsion it experiences to follow the summoner's directions.

[DShomshak]

One alternative I've used is a Summoned entity that is also a Follower. You don't need any level of Amicable to get your Follower to cooperate, because it's a Follower. But it still only does a limited number of tasks per Summoning, and like any Follower it can be lost if you abuse the relationship. Also, if that particular demon, elemental, totem-spirit or whatever is destroyed, well, it's the same as any other Follower dying.

 

I don't think this should require the Specific Being Advantage; I see that as for "I Summon Fred, who has an entire life and may indeed be another PC" rather than "I Summon a spirit that normally interacts with the campaign only when I Summon it, and indeed has nothing to distinguish it from any other spirit of that type." The points you spend on Follower represents the degree of amicability or uniqueness so requiring either Advantage would be a dickish sort of point cost double-dipping.

 

If you want to Summon something without that preexisting relationship, the normal rules apply.

 

Dean Shomshak

[bigdamnhero]

It depends on the flavor of the campaign. (...pointing out the blindingly obvious.)

 

In my last Champions game, one of the PCs could Summon demons, using the "standard" summoning rules, with EGO contests to compel service. The demons were generally considered neither Amicable nor Antagonistic. The PC also had Mind Control vs Demons as a backup or for things that exceeded the allowed number of tasks. In practice, the PC's EGO was so much higher than the demons' that I didn't normally bother to slow down game play with a ton of easy EGO Rolls. We mostly just handwaved it frankly, but only because the player had put in enough points to make handwaving plausible.

 

In my current low fantasy game, I designed a Sorcery system built around summoning demons. None of the PCs elected to go down that route, but the system is written under the assumption that summoner is not in league with the summoned, and that every summons is a both a contest of wills and a bartering of information & power. Given that the Big Bad is (maybe) the Antichrist himself, I'm realizing those assumptions won't quite apply to him and his lieutenants summoning demons. Since they're all NPCs, I'm thinking I may just make a Custom Talent using Amicable as a Naked Advantage and call it good?

[Wardsman]

It depends on the flavor of the campaign. (...pointing out the blindingly obvious.)

 

In my last Champions game, one of the PCs could Summon demons, using the "standard" summoning rules, with EGO contests to compel service. The demons were generally considered neither Amicable nor Antagonistic. The PC also had Mind Control vs Demons as a backup or for things that exceeded the allowed number of tasks. In practice, the PC's EGO was so much higher than the demons' that I didn't normally bother to slow down game play with a ton of easy EGO Rolls. We mostly just handwaved it frankly, but only because the player had put in enough points to make handwaving plausible.

 

In my current low fantasy game, I designed a Sorcery system built around summoning demons. None of the PCs elected to go down that route, but the system is written under the assumption that summoner is not in league with the summoned, and that every summons is a both a contest of wills and a bartering of information & power. Given that the Big Bad is (maybe) the Antichrist himself, I'm realizing those assumptions won't quite apply to him and his lieutenants summoning demons. Since they're all NPCs, I'm thinking I may just make a Custom Talent using Amicable as a Naked Advantage and call it good?

 

I'll take a look at it . Though I'm trying to move away from the modern western bias about demons.

Not that there won't be bad (qlippothic) things in mine. I just want break the mold get  back to some older concepts in myth.

[Wardsman]

Strong willed and Angry Summoned beings are metawise easier That can reflect the fact that classic bad beings want to be found.

 

Also any ideas on how to bind bind a bing to an item? Say a genie to bottle or an efreet to to a smoking brass urn? Or as in Cacodemon  to a Gem?

 

A transform may be one way. Are there others?

[massey]

Strong willed and Angry Summoned beings are metawise easier That can reflect the fact that classic bad beings want to be found.

 

Also any ideas on how to bind bind a bing to an item? Say a genie to bottle or an efreet to to a smoking brass urn? Or as in Cacodemon  to a Gem?

 

A transform may be one way. Are there others?

 

Perhaps the item is an Entangle sufficiently big enough to trap them.  In a focus, of course.

[Wardsman]

Perhaps the item is an Entangle sufficiently big enough to trap them.  In a focus, of course.

one possibility.

 

I see it being a few ways but only one or two I like.

 

1. Just build an item  and define SFX as bound spirit, often done but boring
2. Enchanted item that summons creature, Little better but you still don't get the right feel
3. Force the daemon to use its power to inhabit the item, Has possibilities
4. Entangle as you said might work but you have mobility issues unless target is small
5. Transform: This could get tricky since you are dealing the daemon and a target item, Could transform daemon into an "AI" for the item or just a prisoner. trapped

 

1.  

[Lucius]

Strong willed and Angry Summoned beings are metawise easier That can reflect the fact that classic bad beings want to be found.

 

Also any ideas on how to bind bind a bing to an item? Say a genie to bottle or an efreet to to a smoking brass urn? Or as in Cacodemon  to a Gem?

 

A transform may be one way. Are there others?

Simplest solution: define "Get in this bottle and STAY there (until someone lets you out)" is a Task you can impose on a Summoned being. As a campaign rule you can define what kind of bottle or seal (i.e. must use Seal of Solomon, etc.) or that whoever opens or activates the item inherits the remaining Tasks if any, etc. etc.

 

 

Or you can define the interior of the bottle as an alternate dimension and use Extradimensional Travel, Usable as Attack, to force the entity into the item.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

crosses his arms and stares in disbelief at the palindromedary. "I don't believe you. No way did a great beast like you ever fit inside that little box. You couldn't have come out of it because you could never possibly go into it." The palindromedary bellows "I'll show you!" and leaps into the tiny box. Lucius Alexander quickly shuts the box and locks it again.

[Wardsman]

This kept me up all night for some reason. I kept thinking about an idea for a summoning grimoire.

 

It starts off with descriptions of protection amulets for the caste(Arcane Defense), containment circles(Forces Walls), a treatise on protocols and etiquettes when dealing with beings from other planes by class (knowledge skills), and a key of True Names.

 

This before it gets to the unique style summoning in the book. For every summoning spell or ritual has a special limitation.

One I call You Shall Be Answered. (need a value)

 

As the preface of this grimoire states and warns, your skill and mastery in the art calling esoteric beings from other planes does not determine If something answers with this powerful school of magick.

No your aptitude determines the subject's demeanor and the level of control you have over it.

 

So what I'm thinking is a roll chart. The better the roll the target has higher levels of the  Amicable and/or Weak-Willed advantage. if you fail and the worse the roll the target has levels of Antagonistic and/or Strong-Willed limitations.

 

 

Complication #1: Requires two skill rolls

 

Let us say you require two skill rolls.  One is KS Etiquette or Protocols of the 9 Hells or the Courts of Chaos(or something like that) while the second is Power Skill Magick or Summoning.

The Etiquette or Protocol roll gets its results off the Amicable/Antagonistic chart while the Power Skill Roll gets its results of the Weak-Willed/Strong-Willed chart.

 

Complication #2: Must know target's True Name (need a value) in conjunction with unfulfilled limitation rules.

 

Both 4th and 5th Edition have suggestions on allowing wizards cast a spell without fulfilling all the limitations with a penalty.

Sometimes it is endurance or a skill roll penalty. The latter is what I'm thinking in this case.

 

Yes boy and girls the author of our grimoire, who disappeared under mysterious circumstances,  may have gotten some of those True Names he listed wrong.

 

A few thoughts. You Shall Be Answered limitation could be based on Side Effects. But even so I want them to be considered different.

Side Effects with Summoning for me are calling something else up Like a gaggle of annoying imps when you try to call a duke of hell or EDM with a gate (you tore a hole in reality, one that leads to hell).

 

Suggestions please.

[Steve]

You could also use Luck as a modifier. For every level of Luck rolled, the summoned being is friendlier and/or weaker willed. For every level of Unluck, they are more antagonistic and/or stronger willed.

 

You could just be catching them on a good or bad day.

[Wardsman]

You could also use Luck as a modifier. For every level of Luck rolled, the summoned being is friendlier and/or weaker willed. For every level of Unluck, they are more antagonistic and/or stronger willed.

 

You could just be catching them on a good or bad day.

Not bad idea. 5th did introduce alternative forms of luck. However RSR seems to rely on the traditional must roll 6 system.

I'm also unclear how active point penalties apply to luck rolls in that situation. 

So while may not build the spell with luck in mind personal luck should probably be a factor.

 

 

Complication #1: Requires two skill rolls

 

Let us say you require two skill rolls.  One is KS Etiquette or Protocols of the 9 Hells or the Courts of Chaos(or something like that) while the second is Power Skill Magick or Summoning.

The Etiquette or Protocol roll gets its results off the Amicable/Antagonistic chart while the Power Skill Roll gets its results of the Weak-Willed/Strong-Willed chart.

 

Complication #2: Must know target's True Name (need a value) in conjunction with unfulfilled limitation rules.

 

Both 4th and 5th Edition have suggestions on allowing wizards cast a spell without fulfilling all the limitations with a penalty.

Sometimes it is endurance or a skill roll penalty. The latter is what I'm thinking in this case.

 

 

The more I think about it the more I think True names should rolled into one of the other factors unless I want write a requires 3 skills chart, which I don't.

 

First thought is to roll true names into one of the other parts like protocol ks. But I don't think knowing a truename should make the target more amicable.

I'd prefer it be a bonus or penalty on the ego chart which would be tied to the power magic skill.