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#201 Netzilla

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 02:31 PM

Hugh what do you think about these options normals blocking Supers. Normals here defined as agents, NPCs, DNPCs, and such. Not PCs who are normal-i.e. Crusader.

With successful block, strike is still penetrating.
Another option would be strike is done at casual strength.

Not Hugh, but when I think about it. . .

 

Most agents are going to be, what, in the 5-6 OCV range while suppers are probably 8-10 or higher.  Even without penalties, those agents are going to be needing 8- (~25%) or worse to block most of the time.  Once penalties get figured in and you're probably looking at 3-5 for success (somewhere between 1/2% and 5%).  Those agents are way better off dodging than trying to block, even without penalties.  So, yeah, I'd allow it just because one might get lucky.  That one gets lucking a few times and we might have ourselves an origin.

 

Seriously, in one of our previous campaigns, our team was in a facility that came under psychic assault.  One of the lab techs, a complete norm, managed to keep rolling 3s to break out of the Mind Control.  It happened something like 4 times in a row.  The GM decided that's when his latent psychic powers kicked in.


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#202 Ninja-Bear

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 08:10 PM

The full 6e2 writeup for Block discusses Strength differences a bit more, and talks about things like picking up a car and getting its DCVM as an OCV bonus to Block with. It also gives the GM leeway to decide what happens in those situations.


Yeah well if i hit the lotto I'll get 6th ed
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#203 Hugh Neilson

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 08:30 PM

...Maybe. He has no weapon, and Vader does; Luke is acting at at least a -2 here. Luke has also just lost one hand; take another -2.

And, just because I the GM am allowing this one -- Block still gives the GM some leeway even when Blocking HTH attacks -- doesn't mean I'm suddenly all okay with Blocking ranged attacks. I still require either the Deflection Power or my 8-point house-ruled Deflect Skill to do that.


FWIW, I was addressing the “Block SFX vs Dodge SFX” issue, not any Range issue.
 

The following is in Steve's draft text. I'm pretty sure it's in 6E2 as well:

It's not in the text you quoted, though. If you have it in front of you, could you check to see if it's in there? If not, I'll check it when I get home. (Edit: 6e2 p. 59)


Well, well, well…
 

Block doesn’t depend on the relative STRs of the characters involved, or on the weapons used. A pixy with a dagger can Block a giant wielding a club — the special effect of the Block could be gently deflecting the blow just enough to keep from being hit, or even a sort of dodging. If the GM wants to, he can adapt the modifier for unarmed Blocks of weapon attacks (see above) to this sort of situation.


Emphasis added. And why can’t “a sort of dodging:” block be as effective against a ranged attack? Dodge itself is!
 

If appropriate, the GM can assign a penalty (-1 to -3) to Block if one character is using a melee weapon and the other is not (in other words, he’s performing an unarmed Block against an armed opponent, trying to use his bare hands to stop a weapon). This is most common in Heroic campaigns.


Perhaps that Pixie, or an unarmed man, using the “draw him in and move away” approach, should not get a penalty.

[ruleslawyer]and the penalty is for blocking with his bare hands – you should only give Luke HALF of the penalty as he has only HALF of his bare hands![/ruleslawyer]

But
 

Third, characters cannot Block both HTH and Ranged attacks in the same Segment. Once a character Blocks one type of attack, he can’t Block the other type.


UGH! Problem NOT solved.

 

Same Segment? What if I Block a punch on Ph 3, committing my Ph 3 action, and I next move in Ph 6? Could I block a Ranged attack in Ph 4? In any case, Cap’s shield should be able to block a punch and a blaster in the same segment.  Sir Knight blocking a swordstroke, and then an arrow, also seems perfectly reasonable.



#204 Hugh Neilson

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 08:30 PM

 

Maybe they didn't Dodge. Maybe they both had 6d6 of Luck. Maybe the GM gave them a break. Or maybe they both did a half-move and Dodge. They certainly didn't get hit.

 

There are PLENTY of options. Maybe the GM rolled 18 47 times in a row. Maybe it’s all backstory and the campaign started on Tatooine when their pod crashed. Maybe they are just NPC maguffins. I am not saying Block is the only possibility, by any stretch. Only that, with no obvious choice, Block is as good a choice as any for how they avoided being hit.

Tell me how they used their OCV.

 

Explain how they Dodged. They certainly don’t look like they are doing either.

Tell me what weapon they used to Block those ranged attacks.

 

Tell me why you need a weapon to block as “a sort of dodging”, especially as you have already suggested they might be dodging.

I'm the GM here; I've got a lot of leeway. There were at least half a dozen blaster bolts there; did they make that many OCV vs. OCV rolls? And remember, in my games, if you want to Block ranged attacks, you still have to pay the points. Was either the Deflection Power or the 8-point Deflect Skill I house-ruled in on their character sheets when you submitted them to me?

 

Considering we are discussing what a default rule could or should be, I fail to see the relevance of a house rule you have already selected. I am not persuaded that George Lucas uses the same house rules you do.

(Edit to add: I found 4th edition writeups for an R2 Astromech Droid and a Protocol Droid here. 4th edition was quite specific about requiring Missile Deflection in order to Block ranged attacks; neither of those writeups has it.)

 

So if I post a writeup on line that has my rules, you will accept them? These Droids are unable to be Stunned – why does Artoo whirl around every so often after being zapped?

“All droids have Life Preservation Programming. This causes them to be unable to harm a sentient being for ANY reason.”

Hasn’t Artoo zapped the occasional target? Doesn’t he smuggle in the lightsaber Luke uses to slaughter Jabba’s minions? “Total commitment” does not mean you hand the executioner his axe!

I am looking at the Protocol Droid. Dex 5, so DCV 2. Defenses 3rPD/ED. 6 total. So, looking at those stats, how did he avoid the blasters? He does not have 6d6 Luck. His DCV with a Dodge is 5. Maybe he can buy something with his 3 wasted points spent on Linguist, given he has no points spent on languages, just Universal Translator.

I like that ACV Block using DCV idea – but since we’re pre-6e, I guess we can’t use it :(

I wonder how we get that to work for a Block, though.



#205 Hugh Neilson

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 08:32 PM

To the question of "normal vs Super", I'm more inclined to question whether noncombatants would use most combat maneuvers anyway.  The CV spread is, as  noted above, likely to make Block ineffective.  I never see Block used much anyway, so I am reluctant to make it less useful!


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#206 Chris Goodwin

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 01:01 AM

Tell me why you need a weapon to block as “a sort of dodging”, especially as you have already suggested they might be dodging.

 
If the GM says you don't need a weapon to Block, then you don't. If the GM says you do, then you do, because the game gives that authority to the GM. It doesn't matter what SFX you try to use to justify it. If the GM says you can't Block ranged attacks unless you spend the points, then you can't Block ranged attacks unless you spend the points.  If the GM says you can under these circumstances but not those, then that's how it goes.  
 

So if I post a writeup on line that has my rules, you will accept them? These Droids are unable to be Stunned – why does Artoo whirl around every so often after being zapped?

 
If you post a writeup, and I'm the GM, I'll do with it what I as GM would do with any writeup a player submitted to me.  I'd look it over and approve or disapprove it.  If I disapproved it, I'd say why, and I'd make suggestions on what you'd need to change in order for me to approve it.  I'd even be willing to make exceptions to my own rules, if it makes sense enough, depending on the rule.  One of my long standing rules is:  Every rule has exceptions, including this one.
 
I agree with you about the Stun thing.  I wouldn't have given my R2 writeup Takes No Stun.  They're more like characters than robots.
 

I like that ACV Block using DCV idea – but since we’re pre-6e, I guess we can’t use it  :(

I wonder how we get that to work for a Block, though.

 
By buying the Deflection Power and applying the ACV Advantage to it. Ultimately, by checking with the GM to make sure you can.
 

To the question of "normal vs Super", I'm more inclined to question whether noncombatants would use most combat maneuvers anyway.  The CV spread is, as  noted above, likely to make Block ineffective.  I never see Block used much anyway, so I am reluctant to make it less useful!

 
I can't really disagree with you there, but when I'm putting together a game I've got a pretty good idea about what I want Powers (coming at Block from the other side -- I want Blocking ranged attacks to be a special ability, so it's a Power) to represent.  See my latest post in the "Star Wars using Hero" thread for the short version, or my Low Heroic Protocols document linked in my signature for the full story.  I also tend to write it all up beforehand, because I know from experience that if I don't then players will selectively fail to hear restrictions that I tell them verbally.


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#207 Hugh Neilson

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 07:27 AM

If the GM says you don't need a weapon to Block, then you don't. If the GM says you do, then you do, because the game gives that authority to the GM. It doesn't matter what SFX you try to use to justify it.


If the GM says Blast costs 15 points for 1d6, he also has that authority. It does not mean he is using it wisely, or in the spirit of the game. Why not just say "only Killing attacks, and not Blasts, are permitted in this game"?

If we accept a Block can be a form of Dodging, and the GM says "well, you still take a penalty for having no weapon", is he applying:

- common sense? I take a penalty to evade for being less encumbered? It's easier to block a Greatsword if I have a dagger, but no easier to block a Punch if I have a Greatsword?
- dramatic sense? I think the examples of pixie blocking ogre, or Luke outmaneuvering Vader, add to, rather than detracting from, the dramatic or cinematic nature of the game.
- game balance? So there are not enough reasons to pack a weapon, or use a maneuver other than Block, already?

Often, I read a GM's rules for some specific action, ability, whatever and think "My character relying on that would go back on the shelf and I will pick one the GM's arbitrary rules favour rather than disadvantage". Just like, in many less flexible games, you don't pick a character type the game does not support (like picking a Fighter/Wizard in D&D 1.0 or 2.0, but certainly not in 3.0).
 

If you post a writeup, and I'm the GM, I'll do with it what I as GM would do with any writeup a player submitted to me.  I'd look it over and approve or disapprove it.  If I disapproved it, I'd say why, and I'd make suggestions on what you'd need to change in order for me to approve it.  I'd even be willing to make exceptions to my own rules, if it makes sense enough, depending on the rule.  One of my long standing rules is:  Every rule has exceptions, including this one.
 
I agree with you about the Stun thing.  I wouldn't have given my R2 writeup Takes No Stun.  They're more like characters than robots.


Then don't hold out the online post as evidence of your position. At best, it may be evidence someone else agrees with your position, and in this case it did not even meet that standard.
 

I can't really disagree with you there, but when I'm putting together a game I've got a pretty good idea about what I want Powers (coming at Block from the other side -- I want Blocking ranged attacks to be a special ability, so it's a Power) to represent.


So for 8 points, I can Block ranged attacks. Or for 10, I can buy a Martial Arts suite that includes Martial Dodge, which will always work against ranged attacks, give me +5 DCV against them, instead of no benefit, and not be eroded in effectiveness if I am fired upon by multiple opponents (which, I assume, will be reasonably frequent).

In your SW post you note only Jedi should get Deflection, because that's a cool thing they do in the movies. I assume you mean only Jedi should get to Block ranged attacks. But they block multiple blaster bolts quite routinely in the movies, which would be massively expensive to do even if we don't charge them for the privilege of the attempt (which, maybe, comes with the Lightsaber WF, which maybe carries a higher cost than being able to shoot a blaster, and so on).

So, let's assume I will be a 150 point character. That would typically be a 5 or 6 OCV - let's go with 6. Half a dozen Stormtroopers fire blaster bolts at me. Let's give them a 3 CV - surely it will not be lower! To block them, I need to roll a 14-, 12-, 10-, 8-, 6-, 4-. Will I feel like a Jedi after that sequence of rolls? Should I spend another 10 points on +5 Block levels? That's a pretty hefty investment to have a half decent chance to do something the movie guys routinely succeed with. And if they are firing past me at my allies (Jedi often defend their allies like that, right?) that's another -2 penalty to deal with. I've spent 8 points (your figure) to be allowed to Block ranged attacks, plus 12 for levels to make it likely I can do so, = 20 points of my 125 - 150 point character for that? Maybe we'll just Dodge, thanks.

So do you cut me a cost break? If you do, what was the point of imposing a cost to block ranged attacks in the first place?

Maybe it only looks like he is Blocking - perhaps it's more of a Barrier against Blaster Bolts, stuffed in a MP with my Jedi Mind Tricks and TK. That gets the cost down to a level where every Jedi can afford to have it - and it seems like every Jedi in the movies does have it, so that's where it should be.

But now I have to ask whether there is any reason to be a smuggler, or a droid, or a princess, or a Wookie - they need cool stuff that makes them as much fun to play as the Jedi. Clearly the players in the original SW campaign figured that out - when the GM ran the prequels, way more players decided to play Jedi.

Oh, except that one jerk who designed the most annoying character he could think of - the first sheet had "Ewok" crossed out and "Gungan" written above it. If you don't want to play in that game, just stay home!

#208 Ninja-Bear

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 09:03 AM

Hugh trying to use movies to prove a game element is folly. ; )
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#209 Ninja-Bear

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 09:07 AM

Hugh the droids were "dodging" not "blocking". That and everyone else was trying to hit each other, not the droids.
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#210 Chris Goodwin

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 10:51 AM

Then don't hold out the online post as evidence of your position. At best, it may be evidence someone else agrees with your position, and in this case it did not even meet that standard.


Those were literally the only writeups I could find for an R2 astromech droid and a protocol droid. I could have written my own, but that would hardly have proved my point. It does support my point that, prior to 6th edition, droids typically weren't built with the ability to Block ranged attacks.
 

So for 8 points, I can Block ranged attacks. Or for 10, I can buy a Martial Arts suite that includes Martial Dodge, which will always work against ranged attacks, give me +5 DCV against them, instead of no benefit, and not be eroded in effectiveness if I am fired upon by multiple opponents (which, I assume, will be reasonably frequent).

In your SW post you note only Jedi should get Deflection, because that's a cool thing they do in the movies. I assume you mean only Jedi should get to Block ranged attacks. But they block multiple blaster bolts quite routinely in the movies, which would be massively expensive to do even if we don't charge them for the privilege of the attempt (which, maybe, comes with the Lightsaber WF, which maybe carries a higher cost than being able to shoot a blaster, and so on).

So, let's assume I will be a 150 point character. That would typically be a 5 or 6 OCV - let's go with 6. Half a dozen Stormtroopers fire blaster bolts at me. Let's give them a 3 CV - surely it will not be lower! To block them, I need to roll a 14-, 12-, 10-, 8-, 6-, 4-. Will I feel like a Jedi after that sequence of rolls? Should I spend another 10 points on +5 Block levels? That's a pretty hefty investment to have a half decent chance to do something the movie guys routinely succeed with. And if they are firing past me at my allies (Jedi often defend their allies like that, right?) that's another -2 penalty to deal with. I've spent 8 points (your figure) to be allowed to Block ranged attacks, plus 12 for levels to make it likely I can do so, = 20 points of my 125 - 150 point character for that? Maybe we'll just Dodge, thanks.

So do you cut me a cost break? If you do, what was the point of imposing a cost to block ranged attacks in the first place?


I was basing my cost on assuming the Deflection Power had 4 PSLs built in at 2 points per (I suppose they should be 1 point per, but that makes the final result even more expensive). 20 points for Deflection, minus 8 points for PSLs, leaves us a 12 point Ranged ability. Taking Range away from that makes it 8 points. Now that we at least know what kind of person I am, we can quibble on the price...

The 8 point cost is the same as +1 with all HTH combat, or +4 with Lightsaber (2-point CSLs). It's less than the cost of Rapid Attack or Two Weapon Fighting (10 points each). It's more expensive than the Autofire Skills (5 points apiece; there are four of them). It's less than the cost of Fast Draw at +3 (9 points). It's the same cost as Defense Maneuvers I-III (8 points; adding IV for the full suite is 10 points).  

 

6e2 suggests that Rapid Attack can have a -1 Limitation applied for HTH only or Ranged Attacks only.  From that I'll extrapolate that you can buy the Deflect Skill with OAF Lightsaber, for 4 points.  (If it matters, I assume that Darth Vader has bought the full Deflection Power without a Focus Limitation.)

If you're a Jedi blocking blaster bolts with a lightsaber, you're using the ideal weapon for that. No penalty for weapon, even though I partially counted that into the original cost of the Deflection Power.  

 

Maybe it only looks like he is Blocking - perhaps it's more of a Barrier against Blaster Bolts, stuffed in a MP with my Jedi Mind Tricks and TK. That gets the cost down to a level where every Jedi can afford to have it - and it seems like every Jedi in the movies does have it, so that's where it should be.

 

Not impossible. If we assume blasters are 6 DC (my typical assumption), and if we assume a 3m wide by 2m high Barrier (effectively, three 1m wide by 2m high segments), with 12 rED, that's 24 Active Points. No Range and OAF Lightsaber makes it 9.6 real, rounds to 10.  If you want it PD and ED, that's 42 Active Points for the Barrier,or 17 Real.  Or put it in a Multipower with two slots, one for PD and one for ED; 10 points for the 24 point reserve, 2 points for two Fixed slots.  
 

But now I have to ask whether there is any reason to be a smuggler, or a droid, or a princess, or a Wookie - they need cool stuff that makes them as much fun to play as the Jedi. Clearly the players in the original SW campaign figured that out - when the GM ran the prequels, way more players decided to play Jedi.

 

 

My Low Heroic Protocols actually cover that as well; they call for charging double for all Powers, with the rationale that Powers punch above their weight, point-wise.  Not a point in their favor, I'm guessing, but there it is.  I'm still debating that one with myself, but I imagine that would turn most players off of my campaign straightaway...

 

 

Oh, except that one jerk who designed the most annoying character he could think of - the first sheet had "Ewok" crossed out and "Gungan" written above it. If you don't want to play in that game, just stay home!

 

R2D2's player thought the GM said "sequels" and spent all of his XP on things like Rocket Boosts: Flight, 10m; Extra Limbs; Zapper: Blast, 8d6, No Range; and the like.  


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#211 Chris Goodwin

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 10:52 AM

Hugh trying to use movies to prove a game element is folly. ; )

 

 

Hugh the droids were "dodging" not "blocking". That and everyone else was trying to hit each other, not the droids.

 

We already covered both of those.


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There are two paths your character can take into the game: the path of the game guidelines document, or the path of the Character Approver 9000. Choose your path wisely.

#212 Ninja-Bear

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 11:21 AM

We already covered both of those.


Well fine :P
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#213 Tasha

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 12:51 PM

Yeah well if i hit the lotto I'll get 6th ed

You can't afford $40?



#214 Ninja-Bear

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 01:02 PM

You can't afford $40?


I bought CC - birthday money. I meant the full 6th 2 volume which I believe Chris referred too.
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#215 Ninja-Bear

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 01:29 PM

And another thing Tasha I have a wife and kids. What is this thing called money? :P
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#216 Hugh Neilson

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 02:02 PM

Hugh the droids were "dodging" not "blocking". That and everyone else was trying to hit each other, not the droids.


To me, they look no more like they are dodging than blocking, and no less. The question is how the game can simulate the movie, not that the movie simulates the game. Lots of possible mechanics for that scene have been suggested, none wholly invalid and all debatable, in my view.

quote name="Chris Goodwin" post="2582751" timestamp="1492879881"]
Those were literally the only writeups I could find for an R2 astromech droid and a protocol droid. I could have written my own, but that would hardly have proved my point. It does support my point that, prior to 6th edition, droids typically weren't built with the ability to Block ranged attacks./quote]

If we are looking for proof that prior to 6e, only a tiny handful of Hero characters could, under Hero rules, deflect a rock thrown at them, then I agree. That was the state of the rules. That is why I welcomed the extension of Block to ranged attacks, because I think virtually everyone has a chance to Block (or deflect) a thrown rock, at least to the extent they have a chance to block a thrown punch or a swing with a baseball bat.

 

The 8 point cost is the same as +1 with all HTH combat, or +4 with Lightsaber (2-point CSLs). It's less than the cost of Rapid Attack or Two Weapon Fighting (10 points each). It's more expensive than the Autofire Skills (5 points apiece; there are four of them). It's less than the cost of Fast Draw at +3 (9 points). It's the same cost as Defense Maneuvers I-III (8 points; adding IV for the full suite is 10 points).


And it is 8 points more than the cost to be permitted to try to hit, trip, disarm, block, dodge or choke someone.
 

Not impossible. If we assume blasters are 6 DC (my typical assumption), and if we assume a 3m wide by 2m high Barrier (effectively, three 1m wide by 2m high segments), with 12 rED, that's 24 Active Points. No Range and OAF Lightsaber makes it 9.6 real, rounds to 10. If you want it PD and ED, that's 42 Active Points for the Barrier,or 17 Real. Or put it in a Multipower with two slots, one for PD and one for ED; 10 points for the 24 point reserve, 2 points for two Fixed slots.


Since a Barrier normally stays in place with no further action on the part of the character, it becomes even less costly, and it is far more effective than Block. So why pay the 8 points you will charge for a Block that becomes less and less likely to succeed with each succeeding shot fired when I can just buy the Barrier? About the only reason I am seeing to NOT let Block work against ranged attacks is that it's still not really all that useful.

As to costing all powers double, when gear costs money, I think it suggests putting points into skills to use gear and perks to access it, rather than taking powers. Now how big a chunk of that Junior Jedi's points get sucked up by blocking blaster fire? Maybe we'll leave those scenes on the cutting room floor and just buy more levels with Lightsaber Combat.



#217 Tasha

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 06:12 PM

Somethings I don't bother trying to model in Hero. The droids walking across a hallway though active blaster fire is just one of them. It's just the filmmaker's way to point out how droids don't matter beyond being expensive property. They never did the same thing again in other films, so I would just not bother.

One thing that I think that this discussion of Deflection is missing is that Hero is a Toolkit. That not all of the rules are used in every circumstance. Which is why the Deflection rules are pretty "GM's option" when it comes to being able to deflect stuff without the power or a "focus". Perhaps Block should have a similar GM's Option esp for blocking Killing attacks or Big Normal Attacks.

So In some campaigns it may make sense for everyone to be able to deflect all missiles. Other campaigns it doesn't make sense at all. Others are middle of the road where PCs can deflect some things and not others. In all cases buying the power should override the campaign default, ie a Fantasy Shield spell which deflects magical projectile spells, but fighters couldn't buy the power.


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#218 Hugh Neilson

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 08:03 PM

Maybe we need Deflect written up like Does Knockback - this allows you to Deflect if the game standard does not.
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#219 Ninja-Bear

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 08:12 AM

Maybe we need Deflect written up like Does Knockback - this allows you to Deflect if the game standard does not.


Or like two weapon fighting in fifth rev.
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