Can I dodge while waiting for my OIAID to kick in?

[Panpiper]

I've got an OIAID limitation on some powers and stats. I'm assuming it takes a phase to kick in. However without the Hero ID powers and stats, my character is a good bit easier to hit and hurt, and she has no attacks worth anything either. Can I spend that phase dodging as opposed to just 'waiting'?

[Barton]

I would in my games say yes.

[Ninja-Bear]

I second Barton. OIAID is a limitation but if you have to Dodge to avoid getting hit then I think that’s worth the (-1/4).  I guess though it comes down to sfx a little bit.

[Greywind]

I don't know. Capt. Marvel has many times been shown to dodge the incoming lightning so that it affects someone else. Like Superman, Black Adam, etc. On the other hand I'm not entirely sure Billy Batson could dodge it.

[Panpiper]

15 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I guess though it comes down to sfx a little bit.

 

In this case she is morphing from an extremely talented normal human into a demon. She sprouts wings, a tail, horns, claws, her legs develop backbend hooves, her skin grows scaly. It's not instant, but it 'is' fast and a smooth transition.

[Ninja-Bear]

Just now, Panpiper said:

 

In this case she is morphing from an extremely talented normal human into a demon. She sprouts wings, a tail, horns, claws, her legs develop backbend hooves, her skin grows scaly. It's not instant, but it 'is' fast and a smooth transition.

Ok. Yeah in this case I can see her moving and still transitioning into her form. I think in one of the cartoons, Shazam as Billy gets pushed outta the way before the Lightning hit him to transform.

[unclevlad]

P. 387:

 

Quote

For this Limitation to be valid, the character must have some difficulty changing forms — the change must take at least a Full Phase, if not longer (during which the character can do nothing else), and/or there must be other difficulties or ways to prevent him from changing identities.

The point being, slapping on an OIAID gives you a lot of points for a very narrow window, in many cases.  (Pretty easy to put 100-150 points as OIAID, giving you an extra 20-30 to use.)  The key may be, how often does the GM expect to have this window?  

 

Look at the other options.

--Perceivable (inobvious to obvious), typically for defenses.  The fact that it's obvious means your hero ID is blatant, so it's full-time.

--Costs END only to activate.  This one's sweet in many ways...but on the 0 END defenses, they go from Persistent to Constant.  They *stop* if you're stunned or KOd.  

--Concentration 1/2 DCV.  Also has the "can't dodge" aspect, and applies all the way through to his next phase.  (I'm talking about the simple form, with a constant or persistent power.)

--Linked.  Who needs a 1/4 limit when you can get 1/2?  Define the baseline power that creates the conversion from normal to hero form (stun-only Damage Negation anyone?) and hang a ton of Links onto it.  Yes, this is seriously rude.

 

Limitations are meant to cause you problems sometimes.  With OIAID, those problems can't happen most of the time...so when that window's there, it kinda has to be a nasty one.

 

[Panpiper]

I have learned over the course of nearly 40 years of Hero System, to apply limitations sparingly, and only when they truly fit the character.  Especially in games where a GM is enforcing reasonable power limits, it is not particularly difficult to create effective characters without piling on gratuitous limitations just for the points. In the specific case of this game and this character, that holds true in spades. We are building characters within the guidelines of the ChampionsMush to play in a Wildcards variant. We have 425 points to spend and are building to a rather low limit.

 

In a Wildcards game, jokers are for the most part shunned and shown extreme prejudice. They are ghettoed and impoverished, they do not mix with their betters outside of their ghetto. Walking about as a demon in this world and expecting to get anything done outside of a fight would be virtually impossible. My character will spend a LOT of time in her human form. Other limitations might give more points for less disadvantage, but OIAID is exactly the correct one to apply to this character concept. The first few XP will pull much of the stats currently suffering from the limitation, out of it. As it is right now, if she dodges, she'll likely survive a round in her human form as she transitions.

 

[Ninja-Bear]

The biggest thing for me is that a player doesn’t complain that they got hit before the OIAID kicked in-even with Dodge. (Not saying you would though).

[Panpiper]

This campaign, the limits are such that most attacks she might be subject to will be around 50ap at OCV 7. If she dodges she'll be at DCV 9 and she can take a hit at that level without her OIAID. OIAID is only a problem when people treat it like free points without consequence and are just using it to go uber by dumping everything into it. If you have a character concept that is appropriate for an OIAID, start by building your talented normal. Build them to be at least minimally able to survive one phase, IE, able to take a standard hit without getting stunned. Then and only then, consider putting remaining points into OIAID.

 

And yea, don't complain. It WILL happen, expect it.

[unclevlad]

As long as that's the case, it sounds like there are enough other ways for this to kick in, to allow the defensive action.  

 

 

[Killer Shrike]

RAW, I would say "No". The rules say:

For this Limitation to be valid, the character
must have some difficulty changing forms — the
change must take at least a Full Phase, if not
longer (during which the character can do nothing
else)

So, it seems clear to me that it is intended to take time and fully occupy the character.

 

A GM might be lenient and interpret it differently, either across the board or on a case by case basis depending on SFX.

 

Otherwise you could take steps to mitigate your risk before activating the change, or potentially stop-gap the momentary weakness by taking a defensive ability with the Lim "only while transitioning between forms" if it bothered you enough. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Ok then going by RAW, I guess the OP can still Dodge but then would have to restart the OIAID.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

9 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Ok then going by RAW, I guess the OP can still Dodge but then would have to restart the OIAID.

I'm not sure how you're getting to that conclusion from what's posted here.  I don't see anything that indicates one can cancel the OIAID transformation to Abort.  In fact, "can do nothing else" reads to me that one cannot Abort to do something else mid-transformation. 

It would be a perfectly sensible houserule, but I can't see how it's RAW. 

[Ninja-Bear]

18 minutes ago, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

I'm not sure how you're getting to that conclusion from what's posted here.  I don't see anything that indicates one can cancel the OIAID transformation to Abort.  In fact, "can do nothing else" reads to me that one cannot Abort to do something else mid-transformation. 

It would be a perfectly sensible houserule, but I can't see how it's RAW. 

Simple. In order for you to complete OIAID is a full phase. Abort to Dodge cancels the OIAID and allows the Dodge. 

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

Edit: Nevermind.  This wouldn't be a productive conversation. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Gnome afasik OIAID isn’t considered attack power that in that once started you must complete it and cannot abort. Any from from books but I believe extra time limitation you can voluntarily stop (in the case to abort). Naturally any prep work is gone and must be restarted. The OIAID realizes that she needs to Dodge in the middle of Transforming, fine and she does, she must then restart the process again. Now if OIAID is ruled similar to Attack and thereby cannot Dodge. I’ll concede the point.

[Gnome BODY (important!)]

3 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Gnome afasik OIAID isn’t considered attack power that in that once started you must complete it and cannot abort. Any from from books but I believe extra time limitation you can voluntarily stop (in the case to abort). Naturally any prep work is gone and must be restarted. The OIAID realizes that she needs to Dodge in the middle of Transforming, fine and she does, she must then restart the process again. Now if OIAID is ruled similar to Attack and thereby cannot Dodge. I’ll concede the point.

The OIAID transformation is a Full Phase.  You can't Abort if you've already taken your Phase.  "Attack" has nothing to do with it, blowing your actions on anything locks out Abort until next Segment.  I've already cited page numbers for this, see the last thread we were talking about Abort in. 

[Ninja-Bear]

On 7/2/2020 at 4:40 PM, Gnome BODY (important!) said:

The OIAID transformation is a Full Phase.  You can't Abort if you've already taken your Phase.  "Attack" has nothing to do with it, blowing your actions on anything locks out Abort until next Segment.  I've already cited page numbers for this, see the last thread we were talking about Abort in. 

Well check out pg 21 Vol 2. At first blush the example seems to confirm your point. However the example texts states “the GM rules......” That implies that the GM not the Rules  determine if the character can Abort using OIAID.

[Ninja-Bear]

10 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Well check out pg 21 Vol 2. At first blush the example seems to confirm your point. However the example texts states “the GM rules......” That implies that the GM not the Rules  determine if the character can Abort using OIAID.

I’m wrong here. It because the Aborting here referred to the rule about aborting to Defensive Powers not to Abort to Dodge. Fun fact, Doge is considered an attack action. (Don’t think too hard on THAT!) I can find though no rule that says that you cannot Abort to a Dodge when changing OIAID. 

[dsatow]

You can abort to dodge.  The rules specifically say Defensive Action.  Dodge is a defensive action and is abort-able.  Dodge is not an attack action.  Its just an action which ends your phase.  This is important because you can dodge on your phase and then abort your next phase to block.  (For example, to abort your own dodge to block an attack for someone else.)

 

As far as if a character "powering up" for OiHID, I would say aborting to dodge would ruin the change.  Of course, this all depends on the GM, but most GMs I know would rule this way too.  This is also very comic bookie.  A lot of heroes have to dodge, dive for cover, etc. which interrupts their change into a superhero. 

 

You might be able to get your GM(especially if they played before 5th) to allow you to buy Instachange for 5/10 points.  Instachange was an older pre5th edition power that allowed you to instantly change into a superhero costume.

[Killer Shrike]

You don't need instant change as a power; Activation of Powers already covers the ability to change for free if that is part of your SFX. 

[Panpiper]

I don't see how one can earn a -1/4 limitation on a power by defining that it takes a full phase to activate (which is mechanically what OIAID does) and then eliminate the limitation by spending 5 points on instant change, but then still retain the -1/4. 

[Ninja-Bear]

59 minutes ago, Panpiper said:

I don't see how one can earn a -1/4 limitation on a power by defining that it takes a full phase to activate (which is mechanically what OIAID does) and then eliminate the limitation by spending 5 points on instant change, but then still retain the -1/4. 

I see what your saying however the text gives Full Phase as a suggestion. OIAID should limit you but the specific ways in which it does is up to GM-Player agreement.

[unclevlad]

 

On 7/10/2020 at 5:10 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

I see what your saying however the text gives Full Phase as a suggestion. OIAID should limit you but the specific ways in which it does is up to GM-Player agreement.

The point that's being made tho, is it needs to be worth at least as much...and as such, it should not be nerf-able by something cheap.

 

Allowing a dodge while shifting to the AID might be OK, but in general, there has to be some other reason why the AID is a problem.  Because if you can just dodge, then when will it matter?  How often do you get ambushed, and have to shift?  Of those times, how often can you not simply step off to the side to shift unobtrusively?  Obviously that depends on the attack specifics...where, who's the target, that sort of thing...but quite often you're not directly involved, so the shift isn't a problem.  The normal form is very unlikely to be attacked.

 

One example of an alternative...Donald Blake must stamp his cane firmly in order to become Thor.  OK, so...take the cane away.  Restrain Blake so he can't stamp it.  IOW, there's a deniable trigger involved, so the full phase to switch isn't necessary.

 

And as I pointed out...if you're activating a defense, consider including Perceivable instead of AID.  Yeah, there's issues about when Perceivable should be allowed, but I'm inclined to allow it when the SFX indicate you're *clearly* Not A Normal Person.  I would also consider it when the "normal form is unlikely to be attacked" condition is out...as per the Wild Cards example, or with, say, someone who spends a lot of time under cover, in a more street-level supers game.  If you're trying to shut down major drug or human trafficking...there's a very reasonable chance your cover will be blown.  And, if nothing else, shifting to the AID blows the investigation apart....so that's a big cost.

 

So...rather than trying to parse the rules so the limitation basically means free points...stay with the spirit and identify WHY it's worth points.  I might also add, the number of points onto which you're applying this limit should also be a consideration.