Puffin Forest’s In Depth Review of Pathfinder 2e

[Ragitsu]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

WRT the cloak of elvenkind, tho, iin 2E t's using a completely disconnected "skill roll."  It doesn't connect with anything else, which is structurally very poor.

 

Why is that necessary? The original cloak of elvenkind is designed to be equipped and used by everyone across every tier of power; it feels more like a magical artifact and less like another narrowly useful, quickly obsolete piece of equipment. I understand that this approach feels unsatisfying when you expect a system's parts to click together from every direction, but it works within the more arbitrary (plus compartmentalized) nature of AD&D 2e. Playing to the system's strengths is key to one's enjoyment.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Ragitsu said:

 

Why is that necessary? The original cloak of elvenkind is designed to be equipped and used by everyone across every tier of power; it feels more like a magical artifact and less like another narrowly useful, quickly obsolete piece of equipment. I understand that this approach feels unsatisfying when you expect a system's parts to click together from every direction, but it works within the more arbitrary (plus compartmentalized) nature of AD&D 2e. Playing to the system's strengths is key to one's enjoyment.

 

Sure, but the arbitrary, capricious, and inconsistent nature of 2E was the motivator for 3E.  2E items often gave fixed benefits...but that made for rather inconsistent power.  The girdle of giant strength, or just gauntlets of ogre power, were *awesome* for the fighter-type who failed to roll exceptional Str;  nice but not crazy-good for someone who got lucky.  It also doesn't help that the benefits could be massively out of proportion for some items, compared to anything you might get from normal play.  (A GoGS was worth more than multiple wishes?  Quite often, yes.)  

 

Basicallty, 1E and 2E were the DM's games, and the characters too often played supporting roles.  It didn't help that the DM had little guidance as to what was, or was not, reasonable, and campaign derailment was not uncommon.  Granted, quite often we didn't care, because we didn't vest in the characters, we vested more in the stories.  But there was pushback on that, and a desire to give the players more control, AND the DMs more structure.  Thus...3E.

 

One of the things 3E probably, ultimately, did *wrong* was magic item creation.  Along with a weak skill system.  The cloak of elvenkind shouldn't turn the 12 Dex wizard into Aragorn moving through the woods;  that's excessive IMO.  But the skill system made it useless, as you note, and that's wrong.

 

 

[Ragitsu]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

 

Sure, but the arbitrary, capricious, and inconsistent nature of 2E was the motivator for 3E.  2E items often gave fixed benefits...but that made for rather inconsistent power.  The girdle of giant strength, or just gauntlets of ogre power, were *awesome* for the fighter-type who failed to roll exceptional Str;  nice but not crazy-good for someone who got lucky.  It also doesn't help that the benefits could be massively out of proportion for some items, compared to anything you might get from normal play.  (A GoGS was worth more than multiple wishes?  Quite often, yes.)  

 

Basicallty, 1E and 2E were the DM's games, and the characters too often played supporting roles.  It didn't help that the DM had little guidance as to what was, or was not, reasonable, and campaign derailment was not uncommon.  Granted, quite often we didn't care, because we didn't vest in the characters, we vested more in the stories.  But there was pushback on that, and a desire to give the players more control, AND the DMs more structure.  Thus...3E.

 

One of the things 3E probably, ultimately, did *wrong* was magic item creation.  Along with a weak skill system.  The cloak of elvenkind shouldn't turn the 12 Dex wizard into Aragorn moving through the woods;  that's excessive IMO.  But the skill system made it useless, as you note, and that's wrong.

 

 

 

I hate having to say this. So often, I've witnessed it happen from afar while occasionally thinking it would never happen to me. However, it appears that agreeing that each other's point-of-view has its merits is the only satisfying resolution to this sub-debate. When it comes to these systems that rely on the constant presence of arbitration, magic items should be powerful and absolute within their domain of influence. Look at the PF 2e chime of opening I mentioned; it doesn't do anything a mundane Rogue can't do (the only real benefit to using the chime is that you gain the luxury of distance). The 2e chime of opening works even on "impossible" or magical impediments. As was stated earlier, I enjoy my crunchy games...yet I was glad to "discover" the edition of D&D that was phased out just as I was entering the hobby of tabletop gaming.

 

P.S. There has been a renaissance for the "old school" fantasy tabletop RPGs. Could it be that folks aren't so keen on the video game structure of more modern fare?

 

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

The cloak of elvenkind shouldn't turn the 12 Dex wizard into Aragorn moving through the woods.

 

That's partly true. If your character keeps their distance while wearing the cloak, they'll be nearly impossible to spot in most circumstances. Now...if they must move in closely, they'll have to risk being heard. The cloak does nothing for broken glass, loose stones, bare metal tiles, et cetera. You'll need boots of elvenkind. Remember that you cannot purchase magical items in pre-WOTC D&D; you'll have to hope either item turns up when the DM rolls for a powerful monster's treasure hoard, the DM decides to place them in a fitting location (such as an elven tomb) or that the DM can be persuaded to let your character go on a quest where it is possible to earn such a reward. Regardless, no matter how your character came into possession of them, they'll be equipped with two powerful magical items, so, yes, they should enjoy the fruits of their labor.

 

Do keep in mind that if the character enters a dead magic zone, their advantage goes away. Likewise, a mage or priest blanketing an area with dispel magic is going to ruin their day. Creatures with an acute sense of smell can potentially locate the supernaturally-enabled prowler/scout by coming close. Should the party get captured, Mr. 12 Dexterity Wizard (who almost assuredly had his spellbook confiscated) is going to be completely SOL unless he already memorized a handy spell. When it comes time to break out, guest NPC Aragorn is laughing* as he still has his Hide in Shadows and Move Silently Skills to rely upon.

 

* Okay, he's not really laughing. Laughter is not at all stealthy.

[zslane]

11 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

Remember that you cannot purchase magical items in pre-WOTC D&D

 

To be fair, magic items in AD&D have had g.p. valuation in the DMG as far back as 1st edition. This led countless DMs to believe that there should be magic item stores in every large city where PCs could buy what they needed with their dubiously earned piles of gold. Need a Staff of the Magi? No problem, just go visit Harrod's of Greyhawk and plunk down your 75k g.p. and you're good to go. This was the hallmark of Monty Haul DMs everywhere, and it was quite prevalent. Interestingly, rather than ruining the game, it just became something players accepted as part of the campaign setting. It was okay because the monsters/adversaries were usually scaled up to account for that. No self-respecting AD&D 1e DM was going to let a few expensive magic items get in the way of a good old fashioned TPK...

 

 

[Ragitsu]

1 hour ago, zslane said:

 

To be fair, magic items in AD&D have had g.p. valuation in the DMG as far back as 1st edition. This led countless DMs to believe that there should be magic item stores in every large city where PCs could buy what they needed with their dubiously earned piles of gold. Need a Staff of the Magi? No problem, just go visit Harrod's of Greyhawk and plunk down your 75k g.p. and you're good to go. This was the hallmark of Monty Haul DMs everywhere, and it was quite prevalent. Interestingly, rather than ruining the game, it just became something players accepted as part of the campaign setting. It was okay because the monsters/adversaries were usually scaled up to account for that. No self-respecting AD&D 1e DM was going to let a few expensive magic items get in the way of a good old fashioned TPK...

 

 

 

I seem to recall the GP notation being intended for purposes other than actual regular commerce (the GP value once indicated how much equivalent XP you earned). AD&D 2e started to enshrine the idea that you can earn XP for accomplishments other than the acquisition of treasure. You could  - in theory - sell those magical items to individuals with enough coin, but you couldn't buy them.

[Certified]

 

1 hour ago, zslane said:

 

To be fair, magic items in AD&D have had g.p. valuation in the DMG as far back as 1st edition. This led countless DMs to believe that there should be magic item stores in every large city where PCs could buy what they needed with their dubiously earned piles of gold. Need a Staff of the Magi? No problem, just go visit Harrod's of Greyhawk and plunk down your 75k g.p. and you're good to go. This was the hallmark of Monty Haul DMs everywhere, and it was quite prevalent. Interestingly, rather than ruining the game, it just became something players accepted as part of the campaign setting. It was okay because the monsters/adversaries were usually scaled up to account for that. No self-respecting AD&D 1e DM was going to let a few expensive magic items get in the way of a good old fashioned TPK...

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Ragitsu said:

 

I seem to recall the GP notation being used for purposes other than actual regular commerce (the GP value once indicated how much equivalent XP you earned).

 

As I remember things, both of these were true. Your haul was passed through a calculation that give you an XP value  At the same time, I've had DMs use these values as a means to have shops. Generally speaking, in 2nd Ed if you followed the random tables, PCs could get loaded up on items really quickly. This is why I started having NPCs use as many of the items I rolled as logically possible. This added some fun challenges, and could really piss off PCs when a Dragon quaffed a healing potion or used a scroll. 

[Ragitsu]

23 minutes ago, Certified said:

At the same time, I've had DMs use these values as a means to have shops. Generally speaking, in 2nd Ed if you followed the random tables, PCs could get loaded up on items really quickly. This is why I started having NPCs use as many of the items I rolled as logically possible. This added some fun challenges, and could really piss off PCs when a Dragon quaffed a healing potion or used a scroll. 

 

There are groups that appreciate having those shops of the arcane to patronize. Fair enough: I'm not trying to spoil their enjoyment. Personally, I see the value in keeping these treasures off the shelves; even the humble keoghtom's ointment becomes a resource you don't squander willy-nilly. Eventually, at least one PC is going to come into ownership of a portable hole and likely fill it with potions & scrolls...but that is a challenge for a later date . Should push come to shove, I may compromise by allowing the party to find a wizard or cleric that can be persuaded to part with a mystical device if they're willing to see a chain of deals through from start to finish.

[dmjalund]

didn't magic items have a rarity stat? maybe limit items in magic stores to items that are relatively common

[Certified]

3 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

didn't magic items have a rarity stat? maybe limit items in magic stores to items that are relatively common

 

Prior to 3.x I personally didn't do magic item, beyond things like first level potions or scrolls, and then that was only available at grand churches or guilds and you couldn't stock up. 

 

Starting in 3.x you had availability charts based on location and population. 

[unclevlad]

Living City opened up a magic shop a few times at major cons.  IIRC...and the times I had the chance to do this, the lines were INSANE so I didn't...the iitem GP values were used for the trade-ins, and you had to trade in at least half the value of the item you wanted, in magical items you had.  

 

A big factor here, remember, is that 2E advocated random treasure generation SO much.  Which meant the party tended to get a LOT of, if not junk, stuff that was either redundant or very sub-optimal.  So if there's not a marketplace for magic, the players are accumulating a bunch of encumbrance, and not much more.

 

4 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

didn't magic items have a rarity stat? maybe limit items in magic stores to items that are relatively common

 

A BIG!!!! chunk of the DMG was...random treasure generation.  With tables.  Usually percentiles, sometimes expanded to 3d10's to do 1 to 1000.  Roll for # of items.  Roll for item type...potion, scroll, weapon, armor, misc, etc.   Most types had subtype rolls.  Weapons, IIRC, had 2 or 3 tables...basic (just enhancement bonus), low-power special, high-power special (vorpal, dancing, stuff like that).  THEN you rolled for the specific item.  I forget how shops were set up, but I think, for exotic items, there was what amounted to rarity rolls.

 

This, BTW, also points out a core problem:  the lists were pretty static.  So the DMG had all those tables, but then UA had to update them and replace several.  It was very clunky.

[Ragitsu]

It's telling that 3e+ D&D can essentially be run on autopilot; ambiguity becomes virtually nonexistent as every table is tailor made for somewhat broad tiers of character level power. When rigid ideas of balance become baked into the underlying structure of the game, it becomes difficult to shift from orthodoxy in order to present a unique obstacle. Those who were burned by petty, vindictive or simply incompetent (who might have been incompetent because they were pressed for time and never learned the most important nuances) DMs can find that order mighty appealing. Unfortunately, abusing the Challenge Rating subsystem proved all too easy.

 

28 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

This, BTW, also points out a core problem:  the lists were pretty static.  So the DMG had all those tables, but then UA had to update them and replace several.  It was very clunky.

 

In AD&D 1e, perhaps; AD&D 2e never received its own Unearthed Arcana.

[unclevlad]

Ahhh...you're right.

That said, consider it just as an example, and the point still applies.  There's a MASSIVE number of expansions for 2E.

 

I agree that 3E was too rigid;  4E was worse.  With 3E, tho, a lot of it was in reaction to the utter anarchy of 1E, which 2E didn't target.  I don't think 3E was a mistake per se;  I felt from the first that they didn't go far enough to address issues, presumably in the interest of not alienating the existing player base.  The mistake, IMO, was 4E.

 

Going back to Pathfinder...from what I saw, I'm concerned they made similar mistakes in their 2E that Wizards made with 4E.  Too jargonistic, too complex, not friendly, still fairly rigid.

[Ragitsu]

28 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

I agree that 3E was too rigid;  4E was worse.  With 3E, tho, a lot of it was in reaction to the utter anarchy of 1E, which 2E didn't target.  I don't think 3E was a mistake per se;  I felt from the first that they didn't go far enough to address issues, presumably in the interest of not alienating the existing player base.  The mistake, IMO, was 4E.

 

5e supposedly borrows quite a bit from AD&D 2e. Off the top of my head, what I remember is that the class variants are reminiscent of earlier "Class Kits" and attributes do not rise above 20 (25 was the absolute limit in AD&D 2e and that was for avatars of gods...most PCs would hit a ceiling of 18, 18/00 or 19 on their own). One aspect of 4e+ I detest is how the Wizard can infinitely cast a low-level damaging spell; this attack is essentially their version of an arrow. D&D mages were not designed to blast foes endlessly...they're supposed to be practitioners of the arcane arts that must be conservative with their magic until they reach the higher echelons of their craft (whereupon wands and staves serve as their primary arsenals of evocation/conjuration magic). Sadly, that is yet another consequence of a tabletop RPG competing with video games.

 

In my opinion, endless cantrips are fine.

[unclevlad]

The Vancean system has also been massively criticized.  That change in 4E was to give them *something* to do without worrying about their extremely limited resources.  Forcing casters to use items is, IMO, ridiculous.  Casters *cast*.  Also, compare the wizard vs. the sorcerer.  The sorc could use his low-level spells for common attacks.  So, they'd already moved away from the Vancean system.

 

You're also, it seems, always attributing the reasoning to the influence of video games.  Not saying they aren't a factor but that's a serious oversimplification.  Psionics didn't use the Vancean system, and it supported pretty frequent actions.  Sorcs.  The Vancean system was a literary device for a VERY LOW MAGIC environment, and D&D is completely the opposite.  

 

Also note that casting from a staff or wand was LESS effective.  The save DC never incorporated the casting stat when the spell came from an item, unless the caster took an unusual late-add feat IIRC.  With wands, the spell level was fixed;  if the caster leveled, the wand didn't. And isn't it a little ridiculous to try to support a half-dozen different wands or staves?  If nothing else, just swapping between them becomes absurd very quickly.  Last...doesn't this get *seriously* expensive?  Creating a wand cost SL * CL * 375 gold, AND if enforced, SL * CL * 30 XP...so a 6th level wand of lightning is 6750 gold and 540 XP.  In 2E, where were you getting them?  Also of note:  an exception here, sometimes, was with 1st level spells.  SL 1 meant they were cheap.  Cure Light gave most of its power at CL 1 to begin with...so 50 charges of 1d8 for 750 gp?  WORTH IT!  Because the pricing algorithm had this as a big loophole.  There wasn't an equivalent for wizards;  magic missile's damage scaled too slowly. 

But...if we stipulate extensive use of wands/staves, doesn't that flat-out say that the class's build patterns fail to achieve the needs and roles of the class?

I also remember *using* scrolls and wands a lot in the 2E games...because they were basically free.  You got a ton of em...especially scrolls.  The money wasn't important;  the scrolls had the salient advantage of always going off.

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

 

5e supposedly borrows quite a bit from AD&D 2e. Off the top of my head, what I remember is that the class variants are reminiscent of earlier "Class Kits" and attributes do not rise above 20 (25 was the absolute limit in AD&D 2e and that was for avatars of gods...most PCs would hit a ceiling of 18, 18/00 or 19 on their own). One aspect of 4e+ I detest is how the Wizard can infinitely cast a low-level damaging spell; this attack is essentially their version of an arrow. D&D mages were not designed to blast foes endlessly...they're supposed to be practitioners of the arcane arts that must be conservative with their magic until they reach the higher echelons of their craft (whereupon wands and staves serve as their primary arsenals of evocation/conjuration magic). Sadly, that is yet another consequence of a tabletop RPG competing with video games.

 

In my opinion, endless cantrips are fine.

No the wizard being able to cast weak damaging spells is the response to a wizard casting one damaging spell then throwing daggers the rest of the encounter. (Or if lucky a DM May allow you to use a weak crossbow.) it doesn’t have anything to do with video games.

[Ragitsu]

22 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

No the wizard being able to cast weak damaging spells is the response to a wizard casting one damaging spell then throwing daggers the rest of the encounter. (Or if lucky a DM May allow you to use a weak crossbow.) it doesn’t have anything to do with video games.

 

Wizards are not just blasters (even Invokers/Evokers have access to other schools of magic) and you can't tell me that competition with MMORPGs didn't influence 4e and to a lesser extent 5e. Everyone is now expected to contribute damage on a constant basis. People have forgotten that the Wizard can do more during the course of an adventure than simply dump their arcane load on command.

 

Now, if a DM is forcing the Wizard into an exclusively offensive role, that's on them.

[Ninja-Bear]

5 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

 

Wizards are not just blasters (even Invokers/Evokers have access to other schools of magic) and you can't tell me that competition with MMORPGs didn't influence 4e and to a lesser extent 5e. Everyone is now expected to contribute damage on a constant basis. People have forgotten that the Wizard can do more during the course of an adventure than simply dump their arcane load on command.

 

Now, if a DM is forcing the Wizard into an exclusively offensive role, that's on them.

You were talking about old school. Most old version of D&D the wizard of low levels have only a few spells -randomly chosen to boot. Still they may only cast one spell per DAY! That’s it! After that then it’s mundane weapons. One version (I can’t remember at this time) only allowed a Magic user to Only dagger or club. Old school magic users are really limited. This problem is way before video games. Chris Gonnerman of Basic Fantasy in his blog said that (in his experience) that a magic user ast his spell then they expected him to throw daggers at the Target or do other things. Yeah sounds magical to you?

[Ragitsu]

16 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

You were talking about old school. Most old version of D&D the wizard of low levels have only a few spells -randomly chosen to boot. Still they may only cast one spell per DAY! That’s it! After that then it’s mundane weapons. One version (I can’t remember at this time) only allowed a Magic user to Only dagger or club. Old school magic users are really limited. This problem is way before video games. Chris Gonnerman of Basic Fantasy in his blog said that (in his experience) that a magic user ast his spell then they expected him to throw daggers at the Target or do other things. Yeah sounds magical to you?

 

Admittedly, some players expect their magic-users to endlessly fire bolts of fire/ice/lightning; the only way they will be satisfied (outside of massive alterations to an old school tabletop RPG) is to play the newer tabletop RPGs that cater to this desire. Otherwise, if you're sticking with AD&D 1e/2e, a simple hack you can institute if you're the DM (or request, if you're the player) is to allow the Mage to gain bonus spells due to high Intelligence the way Priests gain bonus spells thanks to high Wisdom. Then, there are the aforementioned Specialist Wizards. Among other benefits, Specialist Wizards gain bonus spells from their chosen school of magic in exchange for voluntarily closing off access to certain other schools. Finally, a fair and skilled DM is going to ensure that no one gets left out when treasure is awarded; the Mage will come into spellbooks, scrolls, wands, staves, rings (especially the ring of spell storing and ring of wizardry) and the like that enhance their stockpile of arcane firepower as their own spell slots steadily increase.

 

By the way, magic missile is good and a staple for a reason, but you're limiting your options if that's all you fixate on at Level 1. Old school charm person lasts for weeks or even months; having, say, an enemy chieftain as your best friend makes life much easier. The humble sleep spell knocks out 2 to 8 HD worth of bandits/goblins/hobgoblins/orcs/et cetera without an accompanying saving throw; anything asleep can be instantly killed by a coup de grace, so that one spell is basically the equivalent of several magic missiles in terms of damage output. mount lasts for three hours (and, eventually, close to a full day at Level 20). If the party knows in advance that they're going to beat a hasty retreat, wall of fog affords them precious concealment. Lastly, if you're in Trap Central, unseen servant saves the Thief/Bard from unnecessary damage that demands a Priest's attention (and spells).

 

Oh yes, one more thing...given the Mage's high Intelligence and selection of Non-Weapon Proficiencies, they should be kept busy with matters of scholarly knowledge and research.

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, Ragitsu said:

Oh yes, one more thing...given the Mage's high Intelligence and selection of Non-Weapon Proficiencies, they should be kept busy with matters of scholarly knowledge and research.

What are these profeficiences you speak of? I jest except to  point out that when you refer to Old School, that is a nebulous term. Proficiencies were only introduced in AD&D 1st with Oriental Adventures. But not everyone played the Advanced, Basic D&D doesn’t touch this. Also, if the Magic User is doing research, how is he going to gain experience? Or afford research? Oh yes the GM can change this but if you go by the rules? Point is that some of what your saying is from Computer games which is still ironic cause where do you think the video games got their ideas? I’m sure video games has influenced the latest editions of AD&D. They probably said “Hey. why are the video games, especially magic users popular?”. 

[Scott Ruggels]

I’m getting confused about your D&D edition terminology. What I see it as 1st Edition were the three little brown books with the quack Kirby traced art, that you also needed Chainmail to do combat properly. The Avalon Hill Wilderness Adventures board was recommended as the campaign map, and slowly other digest sized books came out.  This is what I learned on over the Winter break 1976-1977 while in junior high. I was hooked. For Christmas in 1979 or 80 I received the hardbacks. Players Handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide, and Monster Manual, with all the copyright infringing material. Still have them, Insee that as second Edition?   The Little Brown books are the edition with the Mages that cast a Spell or two, then tossed daggers.  Even back then the Wizards stood in the back while the fighters and clerics beat on the opposition. Wizards could not wear armor.

 

What I find interesting is how many here liked the fairytale feel, while others preceded a pseudo historical pastiche. I tended to lean towards historical feel. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Scott my terminology is all over the place cause I never really played that much of “D&D”. Some of it was second Edition AD&D, some of it was Basic D&D-the Red Books and I did own the Rules Cyclopedia at one time. I do now own Basic Fantasy which is an OSR which uses the Open License of AD&D 3rd but it’s refined to feel like D&D of the late ‘80’s iirc. That’s some of the confusion isn’t it? You say “D&D” and people “know” what your talking about until you get into specifics and it can be a different beast. And people are fans of specific versions of D&D.

[zslane]

Canonical D&D product terminology is that "OD&D" refers to the white box set with the little brown booklets (sometimes euphemistically referred to as "0e"). 1e/2e/3e/4e/5e all refer to the lineage of products that began with AD&D 1st edition, progressed through the D20 era and into the current 5e system. A separate line of terminology is used for the games that follow the "Basic D&D" genealogy tree.

 

[Scott Ruggels]

Okay then. So the hardbacks with the lurid covers were 1st Edition? What we then referred to as AD&D?  
 

I skipped 3 and 3.5 until a friend from Germany on Second Life invited me a couple of years ago to play Pathfinder 1, and then came 5e which in enjoyable and plays  quickly enough in combat. Pathfinder had better character customization, but it falls apart above 20th level. 5e feels more solid. 
 

 Waiting for the latest version of the TTS mod to resume playing Hero Regularly. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Speaking of Magic Users and hand to hand combat, I got a story to tell. So I ran a scenario using Basic Fantasy which is a OSR. My youngest was using a MU. He ran past one goblin to go toe to toe with another one. Now I wasn’t hiding any rolls and in my head I’m going this is the end for him. I tried to have him reconsider the move. Alas no success. I could hit him at ALL! For those who don’t know, MU don’t have any armor therefore crappy AC! He took out that goblin-with his dagger.

[Ninja-Bear]

I’ve also wondered what misperceptions of game play has been through the years.