Penalty Skill Levels: How Many Types of Penalties?

[Fedifensor]

These questions are for a 5th edition game, but I suspect they apply equally to 6th.

 

Penalty Skill Levels can be used to reduce or counteract a specific type of negative OCV modifier.  Examples include Range Skill Levels, Targeting Skill Levels, and Throwing Skill Levels.  How many other types of negative OCV modifiers are in the rules? 

 

Can you use Penalty Skill Levels to offset a penalty that changes your OCV by a multiplier or drops it to 0 (such as the penalties for Lack of Senses in Combat, pg 349 5ER). 

 

Are Change Environment (wind field) giving a -2 OCV and Change Environment (vertigo field) giving a -2 OCV considered to be both under Change Environment, or are they considered different types of penalties for purpose of Penalty Skill Levels?  In other words, are penalties categorized by rule mechanics, or by special effect, or some other rationale?

[eepjr24]

2 hours ago, Fedifensor said:

These questions are for a 5th edition game, but I suspect they apply equally to 6th.

 

Mostly. They may have official rulings in 6e that were not present in 5e.

2 hours ago, Fedifensor said:

Penalty Skill Levels can be used to reduce or counteract a specific type of negative OCV modifier.  Examples include Range Skill Levels, Targeting Skill Levels, and Throwing Skill Levels.  How many other types of negative OCV modifiers are in the rules? 

 

As many as the GM decides exist.

2 hours ago, Fedifensor said:

Can you use Penalty Skill Levels to offset a penalty that changes your OCV by a multiplier or drops it to 0 (such as the penalties for Lack of Senses in Combat, pg 349 5ER). 

 

No. On the order of operations table halving and setting to a value occur last. There's a post by Steve on this one if you want to look it up.

2 hours ago, Fedifensor said:

Are Change Environment (wind field) giving a -2 OCV and Change Environment (vertigo field) giving a -2 OCV considered to be both under Change Environment, or are they considered different types of penalties for purpose of Penalty Skill Levels?  In other words, are penalties categorized by rule mechanics, or by special effect, or some other rationale?

On 6e 84 it spells out pretty clearly that you cannot apply PSL's to more than one specific penalty. So above you would need two different OPSL's to counteract vertigo and wind, although the might be cause from a single type of power or even a single instance of a power (if the CE in question caused both wind and vertigo, for instance, although in that case they would not stack you would just take the highest remaining penalty after OPSL's applied).

 

If you need examples to compare to, take a look at Environmental Movement. Nearly all (if not all) of those effects can be created with Change Environment but they all require separate purchase.

 

- Ernie 

[Fedifensor]

9 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

As many as the GM decides exist.

 

No. On the order of operations table halving and setting to a value occur last. There's a post by Steve on this one if you want to look it up.

On 6e 84 it spells out pretty clearly that you cannot apply PSL's to more than one specific penalty. So above you would need two different OPSL's to counteract vertigo and wind, although the might be cause from a single type of power or even a single instance of a power (if the CE in question caused both wind and vertigo, for instance, although in that case they would not stack you would just take the highest remaining penalty after OPSL's applied).

 

It seems uncharacteristic for Hero System to not have penalties codified.  I suppose I could hunt and peck through the entire combat chapter and try to come up with a list of all the non-Power types of OCV penalties.  However, at that point, it becomes easier just to buy X number of Combat Skill Levels with a limitation Only To Offset Penalties.  That seems simpler than messing with Penalty Skill Levels, and will probably end up being cheaper if trying to cover a wide variety of effects.  Is there any existing example of such a limitation in 5E or 6E, and if so what is the value?

 

Interestingly, while 6E does state the requirement of one specific penalty for PSLs involving OCV, you can have PSLs for DCV that can cover a group of conditions, like fighting in any environment.

 

 

In case anyone was curious, I'm trying to come up with a character balanced for play that is inspired by Cas Russell from Zero Sum Game.  I could either give the character an obnoxious CV, or I could use PSLs and/or limited Combat Skill Levels to let her do things like bouncing a bullet off a wall to hit someone in the head behind full cover.  The latter method would still allow the character to miss shots, but even the most difficult shots would be possible.

 

 

[dmjalund]

there was a time it was forbidden to give skill levels advantages or limitations without declaring them powers

[HeroGM]

With the break down in 6th of OCV as a characteristic I'm surprised they haven't said you use it for weapon CSLS.

 

As to PSLs - you can use them for almost anything. Walking on ledges, Armor penalties, Encumbrance.

[eepjr24]

6 hours ago, Fedifensor said:

It seems uncharacteristic for Hero System to not have penalties codified.  I suppose I could hunt and peck through the entire combat chapter and try to come up with a list of all the non-Power types of OCV penalties.  However, at that point, it becomes easier just to buy X number of Combat Skill Levels with a limitation Only To Offset Penalties.  That seems simpler than messing with Penalty Skill Levels, and will probably end up being cheaper if trying to cover a wide variety of effects.  Is there any existing example of such a limitation in 5E or 6E, and if so what is the value?

There are a number of these codified under PSL's in the book. Range, Targeting and Unbalanced / Unaerodynamic are some. Others include target size, behind cover, etc. They cannot be used to offset maneuver penalties or off hand penalties. 

 

I have not seen CSL's bought the way you are talking about and would look askance at much of a limitation since there is an existing method for doing it in the book already. If I did allow it it would count against OCV cap (PSL's don't for me generally) and would not be more than -1/4 since there is generally SOME penalty you are trying to offset with anything you are shooting at (range and targeting being the most common). 

6 hours ago, Fedifensor said:

Interestingly, while 6E does state the requirement of one specific penalty for PSLs involving OCV, you can have PSLs for DCV that can cover a group of conditions, like fighting in any environment.

The first part of your sentence is true, the second is not. I have not seen a published example of DPSL's for "fighting in any environment". You can buy DPSL's to offset a "group of related conditions", for example "Slippery Surfaces" would cover ice, grease and a friction reduction field. 

6 hours ago, Fedifensor said:

In case anyone was curious, I'm trying to come up with a character balanced for play that is inspired by Cas Russell from Zero Sum Game.  I could either give the character an obnoxious CV, or I could use PSLs and/or limited Combat Skill Levels to let her do things like bouncing a bullet off a wall to hit someone in the head behind full cover.  The latter method would still allow the character to miss shots, but even the most difficult shots would be possible.

Bouncing requires CSL's. Full cover could be PSL's or CSL's, your choice. I would chat with your GM, since +8 OCV to counter a head shot would exceed OCV caps for most games and thus using PSL's would be a workaround for that. If the campaign has no CV caps then that makes the choice easier I would just buy +10 CSL's with her preferred weapon.

 

- E

[Fedifensor]

1 hour ago, eepjr24 said:

I have not seen CSL's bought the way you are talking about and would look askance at much of a limitation since there is an existing method for doing it in the book already. If I did allow it it would count against OCV cap (PSL's don't for me generally) and would not be more than -1/4 since there is generally SOME penalty you are trying to offset with anything you are shooting at (range and targeting being the most common). 

1 Combat Skill Level with All Combat costs 8 points.  1 Penalty Skill Level with Any Attack is 3 points.  I could buy 1 each of range and targeting penalty skill levels for the same price as 1 combat skill level with a -1/4 limitation, and have double the benefit.  Based on that, I think a -1/2 is more in line.  If you aren't getting OCV bonuses, no amount of penalty skill levels will help you hit a target with a significantly higher DCV.

 

 

1 hour ago, eepjr24 said:

The first part of your sentence is true, the second is not. I have not seen a published example of DPSL's for "fighting in any environment". You can buy DPSL's to offset a "group of related conditions", for example "Slippery Surfaces" would cover ice, grease and a friction reduction field. 

Champions Complete, pg 33:

Cost 2 - A single condition (e.g. +1 vs. Encumbrance, +1 vs. fighting underwater)

Cost 3 - A group of conditions (e.g. +1 vs. fighting in any environment)

[eepjr24]

22 hours ago, Fedifensor said:

1 Combat Skill Level with All Combat costs 8 points.  1 Penalty Skill Level with Any Attack is 3 points.  I could buy 1 each of range and targeting penalty skill levels for the same price as 1 combat skill level with a -1/4 limitation, and have double the benefit.  Based on that, I think a -1/2 is more in line.  If you aren't getting OCV bonuses, no amount of penalty skill levels will help you hit a target with a significantly higher DCV.

Limitations are calculated by how frequently the limitation will come into play, not by the pricing of other powers. But it's your game, set it to whatever you want.

 

22 hours ago, Fedifensor said:

Champions Complete, pg 33:

Cost 2 - A single condition (e.g. +1 vs. Encumbrance, +1 vs. fighting underwater)

Cost 3 - A group of conditions (e.g. +1 vs. fighting in any environment)

Interesting. That conflicts with what I see in Hero 6e1 on page 85. I don't use the "complete" books because they are unfortunately not complete and provide little inconsistencies like this.

 

- E

[IndianaJoe3]

On 5/4/2021 at 9:01 AM, eepjr24 said:

[PSLs] cannot be used to offset maneuver penalties or off hand penalties. 

 

Ambidexterity is specifically built as PSLs offsetting the off-hand penalty (6e1 447). Did you mean that they couldn't be used to offset penalties for lack of weapon familiarities?

[eepjr24]

Just now, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

Ambidexterity is specifically built as PSLs offsetting the off-hand penalty (6e1 447). Did you mean that they couldn't be used to offset penalties for lack of weapon familiarities?

Sorry, yes. trying to do too many things at once.

 

- E

[Fedifensor]

37 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

Limitations are calculated by how frequently the limitation will come into play, not by the pricing of other powers. But it's your game, set it to whatever you want.

I suppose if I want to be completely accurate, it's two limitations - OCV only (-1/4) and Only To Offset Penalties (-1/4).  You can't use the levels to offset DCV penalties.  That adds up to -1/2.

 

Regarding the change in Champions Complete - I guess that's why Hero System is described as a toolkit, and not a bible.

[Fedifensor]

28 minutes ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

Ambidexterity is specifically built as PSLs offsetting the off-hand penalty (6e1 447). Did you mean that they couldn't be used to offset penalties for lack of weapon familiarities?

 It should be pointed out that while this is true in 6E (cannot offset unfamiliar weapon penalties), it does not appear to be true for 5th edition - my 5ER rulebook has nothing on the subject.  I doubt it matters much, unless you have some sort of weapon savant who would normally spend more than 9 points on Weapon Familiarities, or if you just want the Jackie Chan ability to use anything as a weapon.  That said, offsetting the penalty doesn't give you the ability to buy Weapon Elements with unfamiliar weapons for Martial Arts, at least in Heroic campaign (pg 400 5ER).

 

For 6E, the workaround is to buy 3 Levels with All Combat and figure out how much of a limitation Only To Offset Weapon Familiarity Penalties is (-1?).  You'll also have to talk to your GM about letting you buy Weapon Elements if you use Martial Arts.

 

This is an area where I would like to see 'caps' on certain things in HERO, instead of an endless descent into minutia.  Say that a flat expenditure of points (say, 20?) gives you Weapon Familiarity with every known weapon, or you can play a flat fee based on the scope of the campaign to know all Languages, etc.  I don't know if anyone has calculated how much it would cost to buy everything on the Language Familiarity Table with all discounts included, but I have better things to do with my time. 

[eepjr24]

21 minutes ago, Fedifensor said:

I suppose if I want to be completely accurate, it's two limitations - OCV only (-1/4) and Only To Offset Penalties (-1/4).  You can't use the levels to offset DCV penalties.  That adds up to -1/2.

Do you mean for the CSL's? Steve has indicated it's not legal to buy "OCV only" or "DCV only" for CSL's, but I'm not sure why you would want to anyway. Just buy limited OCV at that point for 4 points each? It's cheaper and it makes more sense.

 

21 minutes ago, Fedifensor said:

Regarding the change in Champions Complete - I guess that's why Hero System is described as a toolkit, and not a bible.

nods. Also why I said set it to what you like for your game.

 

5 minutes ago, Fedifensor said:

This is an area where I would like to see 'caps' on certain things in HERO, instead of an endless descent into minutia.  Say that a flat expenditure of points (say, 20?) gives you Weapon Familiarity with every known weapon, or you can play a flat fee based on the scope of the campaign to know all Languages, etc.  I don't know if anyone has calculated how much it would cost to buy everything on the Language Familiarity Table with all discounts included, but I have better things to do with my time. 

Universal Translator already exists. 

 

Talents can be created for exactly the purpose you describe. Weapon Savante in my games would cost at most 10 points, 3 OCV bought as "Only to counter weapon familiarity penalties". I'm waffling between -1/2 and -1 on that, probably start with -1/2 (10 points) and if that did not unbalance up it to -1 (7 points).

 

- E

[Fedifensor]

2 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

Do you mean for the CSL's? Steve has indicated it's not legal to buy "OCV only" or "DCV only" for CSL's, but I'm not sure why you would want to anyway. Just buy limited OCV at that point for 4 points each? It's cheaper and it makes more sense.

Honestly, if it's not in the book or an official errata I can download, I ignore it.  I have better things to do than scour these boards looking for Word of Steve.  It's great that there is added guidance available for those who want it, but I need quickly accessible rules if an issue comes up during a game.  Plus, I'm using 5E for this game, which doesn't have purchasable OCV (unless I buy DEX with limitations).

 

2 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

Universal Translator already exists. 

Universal Translator, at least in 5E, is not a full replacement for language.  You can "understand any form of communication" and "communicate back in a crude fashion".  It also requires an INT roll, while language is automatic (up to the amount of fluency).  There should be a full replacement or a language cost cap, since there are over 70 languages on the Language Familiarity table for 5E.  Without spending a lot of time on language similarity, you could easily end up paying over 200 points, which even in a cosmic level game is a large expense to be Cypher of the New Mutants.

 

2 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

Talents can be created for exactly the purpose you describe. Weapon Savante in my games would cost at most 10 points, 3 OCV bought as "Only to counter weapon familiarity penalties". I'm waffling between -1/2 and -1 on that, probably start with -1/2 (10 points) and if that did not unbalance up it to -1 (7 points).

Well, that's basically what I'm doing in my game.  I don't really call it a Talent per se - I just throw the points down on the sheet, see if it looks right, and call it good.  Whether someone wants to call it a Skill, Talent, or Power doesn't make much difference to me as long as it has the desired effect.  5E allows Penalty Skill Levels to be used for that purpose, so it's 9 points, no limitation needed.  I'm honestly not sure why it was so important to exclude Penalty Skill Levels from negating unfamiliar weapon penalties in 6E, since the final cost with your method is about the same...or even a bit cheaper.

[eepjr24]

1 minute ago, Fedifensor said:

Well, that's basically what I'm doing in my game.  I don't really call it a Talent per se - I just throw the points down on the sheet, see if it looks right, and call it good.  Whether someone wants to call it a Skill, Talent, or Power doesn't make much difference to me as long as it has the desired effect.  5E allows Penalty Skill Levels to be used for that purpose, so it's 9 points, no limitation needed.  I'm honestly not sure why it was so important to exclude Penalty Skill Levels from negating unfamiliar weapon penalties in 6E, since the final cost with your method is about the same...or even a bit cheaper.

Steve does not answer "why" questions (for good reason, in my mind, he would never answer anything else if he did and the arguments would not be worth it). Only thing that comes to mind for me is that you could still limit the PSL's further? Dunno otherwise.

 

- E

[Ninja-Bear]

@Fedifensoras to caps for games, awhile back I was involved in a discussion with a environmental movement talent for Zero G. One person asked Steve Long the costing structure because to buy off the Penalty would be a lot higher than what the book gives. To sum up Steve, the “GM” said paid X amount and you’re good-penalty is paid for. 

[Ninja-Bear]

Oh and you’re not supposed to be able to buy off Drunk penalties yet you can. Remember folks that there’s RAW and GM permission can always override RAW.

[HeroGM]

7 hours ago, Fedifensor said:

Without spending a lot of time on language similarity, you could easily end up paying over 200 points, which even in a cosmic level game is a large expense to be Cypher of the New Mutants

 

Variable Power Pool for 10-15pts total as a Comprehend Languages power.

[Greywind]

Universal Translator talent.

[Fedifensor]

Languages:  As mentioned earlier, Universal Translator isn't a full replacement for Language, and using a VPP is like hammering in a nail with a sledgehammer - possible, but likely messy.  If Power Frameworks aren't allowed in your game, you're back to buying all the Languages.

[Ninja-Bear]

2 minutes ago, Fedifensor said:

Languages:  As mentioned earlier, Universal Translator isn't a full replacement for Language, and using a VPP is like hammering in a nail with a sledgehammer - possible, but likely messy.  If Power Frameworks aren't allowed in your game, you're back to buying all the Languages.

I think you’re missing the point of Universal Translator. In fifth (as with all Talents) Steve Long broke them down as how to build them as various Skills and Powers. This is the reason that UT has a skill roll because now it’s based on Detect. However unless you really wanted too, UT doesn’t require a roll at all-it works as you would expect it to work. And that comes back to the Absolute Rule. The GM decides how much an ability is worth builds it as needed and BAM it works the way the GM declares it. Weapon Master for 20 points and it covers all the Weapon Familiarities? Done.  This is the principle of some of the adders were built too. Accurate Leap? So instead of spending Movement Skill Levels to offset Leap (which I think is 6 or more points) the GM declared 5 pt adder and is done. Do you have 5th Revised? (Cause I’m not sure not sure if it’s in 5th) The concept is explained in creating new Powers and Custom Adders.

[Fedifensor]

On 5/5/2021 at 9:38 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

I think you’re missing the point of Universal Translator. In fifth (as with all Talents) Steve Long broke them down as how to build them as various Skills and Powers. This is the reason that UT has a skill roll because now it’s based on Detect. However unless you really wanted too, UT doesn’t require a roll at all-it works as you would expect it to work. And that comes back to the Absolute Rule. The GM decides how much an ability is worth builds it as needed and BAM it works the way the GM declares it. Weapon Master for 20 points and it covers all the Weapon Familiarities? Done.  This is the principle of some of the adders were built too. Accurate Leap? So instead of spending Movement Skill Levels to offset Leap (which I think is 6 or more points) the GM declared 5 pt adder and is done. Do you have 5th Revised? (Cause I’m not sure not sure if it’s in 5th) The concept is explained in creating new Powers and Custom Adders.

Well, sure.  The GM can make whatever they want for the game.  But the point of HERO as a toolkit is guidance with the process. 

 

We have guidance on how to use Detect to understand languages...but no guidance is given on how to use powers to communicate what you're saying to another being.  Likewise, we don't have any guidance on setting upper limits for points spent on Weapon Familiarities.  Is 20 points too much for a Heroic campaign?  What about a Superheroic campaign?  That's the sort of help I'm looking for as a gamemaster.

[Ninja-Bear]

38 minutes ago, Fedifensor said:

Likewise, we don't have any guidance on setting upper limits for points spent on Weapon Familiarities.  Is 20 points too much for a Heroic campaign?  What about a Superheroic campaign?  That's the sort of help I'm looking for as a gamemaster.

I can appreciate having gudience. I thought I was giving guidance. Have you looked at the example of building a custom power slipperiness? He gives guidelines.

[unclevlad]

On 5/5/2021 at 4:34 PM, HeroGM said:

 

Variable Power Pool for 10-15pts total as a Comprehend Languages power.

 

Comprehend Languages would very likely be a Special Power, and therefore not legal in a VPP, at least in 6th.

 

As for the point with UT, and Cypher with the New Mutants...in books and comics, translator devices are either plot devices or sheer, unadulterated author LAZINESS.  Translation powers are no different;  they're just a lot less common.  OR, it's one of the character's little tricks...Threepio, for example, so he's got a niche to fill.

 

I will grant that languages don't offer great returns on their costs...but part of this can also be over-buying.  My background concepts, especially for a current-day setting, often include bilingual...English and Spanish is the most obvious.  When I'm buying Linguist, I'll buy Imitate Dialects with my native language because it'll be free.  I'll buy Idiomatic for the bilingual language because I treat it, by and large as a 2nd native language.  But how often do you really *need* more than Fluent?  It's a level for lawyers, for diplomats, or for infiltrators.  Between the language familiarity chart and the general cost reduction for Linguist, you can get a LOT of languages for 20 points...or even 10, if you're judicious.

 

I am not a fan of any of the Universals...UT, or the universals in APG...per se.  They're TOO broad.  Every human language, every *alien* language?  Every piece of written text, even in another language using an alphabet with a totally different basis?  Yeah, ok, there's rules for penalties to the roll, but it's still too much.  Recognize that it's a Stop talent for a reason...it's NOT something that should be routine.  (Or on the flip side...if a tech solution can be provided easily, then it becomes a no-cost campaign feature.  I can think of at least 2 fictional universes where this is used...and in both cases, it's the authors preferring to duck the issues, IMO.)

 

So why does the character want UT, and what justification does his power set offer for it?  There are some mentalist types where I'd allow it...but with a -0 Limitation that it doesn't work against someone with Mental Defense, for example.

[Fedifensor]

On 5/7/2021 at 12:28 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

I can appreciate having gudience. I thought I was giving guidance. Have you looked at the example of building a custom power slipperiness? He gives guidelines.

 

I appreciate the suggestion.  However, it's a bit different than guidance...

 

Suggestion:  "Weapon Master for 20 points and it covers all the Weapon Familiarities? Done."

 

Guidance:  "Buying all the Group WFs (Melee, Martial Arts Melee, Missile, Siege Engines, Early Firearms, Small Arms, Emplaced Weapons) costs a total of 14 points.  While it can be difficult to estimate how many individual Weapon Familiarities will come up during the course of a campaign, more than 3 or 4 seems unlikely.  You could charge 17 or 18 points, but rounding up to 20 to make sure everything is covered and to give a simple number may be best.  You could also make subsets based on smaller categories (WF: All Melee for 8 pts, WF: All Personal Weapons for 15 points, etc)."

 

I can ballpark a figure easily enough.  What I need is the rationale on how that figure was determined, and why it is reasonable.

 

 

I did a quick scan through my 5ER and 6E Hero core books, and didn't see the Slipperiness example.  Can you let me know where to find it?