Using the Clip Mechanic for a power that does not have charges

[indy523]

So my concept is a magic quiver for a set of crossbow bolts or arrows that never runs out  of arrows.

 

While the quiver will recreate arrows as needed this is in sense reloading the clip and takes extra time once the quiver is out.  So for instance I say the quiver has eight arrows.  Each round as part of your half phase you can pull an arrow from the quiver and fire an arrow just fine.  Once you fire the last arrow however the quiver does not automatically reload and instead of the arrows just magically appearing the character has to engage the quiver to reload the it taking a full phase just like reloading a clip.

 

I guess I could look at it as a part of extra time full phase a -1/2 limitation and since it only takes effect when the clip is emptied i.e. eight shots or whatever it is set to this is at best a -1/4L.

 

The issue becomes that one still gets eight shots which is not as limiting as say four shots and more limiting than say 16.   At some point the clip is so large to begin with that this is not a limitation so that is definitely 16 but maybe 8 is a -0L as well so the -1/4L for infinite clips maybe starts at 6 or maybe 4 is the minimum.

 

I am not so sure where to call that line.  Maybe 4 if it is a single shot weapon and maybe 6 or 8 if it is autofire but I am not sure which it should be.  Anyone have any ideas.

[Grailknight]

How long is your average combat and how often do you see yourself needing to reload  during that time?

 

This needs to be a Custom Limitation valued more to it's occurrence because it basically boils down to just those two factors. Look at your SPD and then visualize how often you'll have to reload in a combat of x rounds. If once per round, then it'll need the # of charges will be less that your SPD, if once per 2 rounds then the charges will be less than 2x SPD but more than 1x.

 

Then you can determine the value. I'd go with -1/2 for one Reload/turn, -1/4 for 1 Reloads/ 2-3 turns and -0 for Reloading every 4 turns or more. Combats longer than 3 turns are not very common and of course you can reload during any break.

[LoneWolf]

Does the power still use END?  If it does not that means you purchased 0 END for the power.  If that is thee case you might simply want to go actually use the charge limitation and use a large number of clips even if it pushes the value to an advantage.  If doing so puts the number of charges above what you will even use your GM may allow you to ignore the actual number of charges.

 

I am assuming the special effect of this is probably magic.  Personally ;that would  be the only special effect I could think of that the “charges” never run out.  If this is some sort of technical item the player would need to come up with a really good explanation of why he has unlimited number of clips.    

 

There are usually multiple ways to do anything in the Hero System.  For the most part the best way is the simplest one.  You also did not really give enough information to give more than a really general answer.   The value of the limitation has to factor in how often will the character have to blow a phase to reload, and what his SPD is.  If a character with a 4 SPD has to reload twice a turn it is going to be higher than a charter with a 6 SPD who has to reload once a minute.  

[steriaca]

Kinda reminds me of the Limited Power "Cinimatic Ammunition". At the -1/4 limitation, your ammunition is going to run out once per story at a dramatic point, and may take a half phase action to take care of what is wrong before firing again. I say "once per story", but the GM can mod the time it runs out longer or shorter if needed for the story.

 

At the -1/2 level, it takes a full phase to do what needs to be done or it happens more often (once per game). At -3/4 level, it takes a full phase AND happens more often. At the -1 level, you can't fix it unless you really have the time to do so.

 

Note: this doesn't take into account Endurance (END still needs to be paid after all, or 0 END bought). The "action" may be as simple as checking the quiver for arrows.

[unclevlad]

Yeah.  Charges get to be insanely complex.  In HD, I built a Blast with:

 

16 clips of 8 recoverable charges

 

It's net +1/2.  Note that 4 clips of 8 is only +1/4...you're getting into the some of the special case BS.  Yes, I loathe charges with a passion.  It's detailed in the second paragraph of Clips, 6E1 369.  There's also a note that charges shouldn't recover more than once a day, generally...but still, the quiver can supply 2 full racks of 128 shots?  256 a day???  By my lights, I can call that an effectively infinite supply, barring some serious autofire.  And, of course, what can happen is that the *belief* is, it never runs out.... And hey, it's fully reloaded the next day anyway.

 

 

 

 

[indy523]

10 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Does the power still use END?  

Yes this is just adding the clip mechanic so one would still have to expend endurance or buy the power down to no endurance.  I am not trying to get anything out of this but the value the limitations should be which I admit I am not sure.

10 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

 

 

[indy523]

10 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

 

I am assuming the special effect of this is probably magic.  

 

The value of the limitation has to factor in how often will the character have to blow a phase to reload, and what his SPD is.  If a character with a 4 SPD has to reload twice a turn it is going to be higher than a charter with a 6 SPD who has to reload once a minute.  

 

Is it a magical effect - yes one of alchemy but this is for a Super Powered Comic Book Heroes but yes described as magic.

PS:  For technical effects I still think one can do this depending on how it is described.  So a super advanced laser gun that can run on solar energy or has a mini fusion reactor that gives endles supply of energy and reloading the clip is just activated the energy chamber that fires the ammo which counts as reloading the weapon or a weapon with nanite self replicating ammo that the user has to continuously formulate to fill a clip etc.  Maybe the power side of of it is to separate from the gun and you cannot use the gun and recharge it at the same time but it only takes a phase to do so, etc.  Sorry just had to throw that out there because you got me thinking about it.

 

As to this particular character I went with eight charges before reloading at a 0L.  She has a 5 speed and this is a bow so it is one shot per half phase so no autofire shenanigans.

I assume based on Grailknight's evaluation this is a -1/4L One reload per 1 & 1/2 turns so maybe it should be a -1/4L

 

I have added an extra rinkle in that the bow is a multipower.  So there are arrows of light that are RKA vs ED, there are Arrows of Wrath that are Blast vs PD with AEF Thin Cone, nonselective fire out to 64m with the added limitation no more than three targets per blast.  This represents the arrow either breaking into three or three arrows loaded on the bow at once.  IT is magic and four color superhero campaign so not an issue roleplaying wise. and arrows of Captivation that is a modified mental paralysis using normal OCV vs DCV, the affects that damage the entangle are those that are resisted by Power Defense or that are Afffects Desolid or Affects Desolid Supernatural spirits only this would of course include drains as well as AVAD.

 

I bought the Multipower with the +1/4A End Cost only to activate or change multipower.  So I am assuming that in this case I can turn the 8 shot reload into a -1/4L with the acknowledgement that to change the type of arrow in the Multipower the character has to reload the clip so this would justify the limitation. 

 

I think I will go ahead and add that as it seems to make sense and it describes the power as I envision it which is the first thing I go for even before game balance all though that being said game balance is important but for me understanding what the power is and how it works is first.

 

Thanks for your feedback guys.  I had not even thought to consider character speed and reload times.

[LoneWolf]

In all honesty I would probably not give this as much of a limitation.  If the character is not required reload more than once a turn, I would probably consider it not worth anything.    Keep in mind that delayed time full phase is a -1/2 limitation.   So, at most I would allow a -1/4 limitation and that only if the character needs to reload at least once per turn.   Use the conditional power limitation for it.

[LoneWolf]

If this is a multipower the END only to activate is not going to work well.   

 

The guns be better off using extra time instead of a trying to use a charge structure without actually using charges.  My advice is to make sure you check with your GM.  A lot of GMs are going to veto this.
 

[Hugh Neilson]

15 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Yeah.  Charges get to be insanely complex.  In HD, I built a Blast with:

 

16 clips of 8 recoverable charges

 

It's net +1/2.  Note that 4 clips of 8 is only +1/4...you're getting into the some of the special case BS.  Yes, I loathe charges with a passion.  It's detailed in the second paragraph of Clips, 6E1 369.  There's also a note that charges shouldn't recover more than once a day, generally...but still, the quiver can supply 2 full racks of 128 shots?  256 a day???  By my lights, I can call that an effectively infinite supply, barring some serious autofire.  And, of course, what can happen is that the *belief* is, it never runs out.... And hey, it's fully reloaded the next day anyway.

Net +1/2 is the same cost as 0 END, so you are not actually getting any limitation.  On rare occasions, you may have to spend a full phase changing clips, which is clearly more limiting than being able to fire at will, with no END cost. 

 

The difference between 9-12 charges and 2 clips of 8 charges is a 1/4 limitation.  The difference between 16 charges and 2 clips of 8 charges is 1/2.

 

I definitely echo "talk to your GM".  If, as a GM, you take a -1/4 limitation, you are telling me "I want to lose a phase often enough for this to be worth -1/4". Then I will work to ensure it comes up often enough to be worth -1/4 - comparable to other -1/4 limitations.  If you decide to price it at -1/2, I would have to assess whether I am willing and able to make this come up often enough in-game to be worth -1/2.  If so, expect it to happen pretty regularly.  If not, then I would restrict it to -1/4.

[Ninja-Bear]

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I definitely echo "talk to your GM".  If, as a GM, you take a -1/4 limitation, you are telling me "I want to lose a phase often enough for this to be worth -1/4". Then I will work to ensure it comes up often enough to be worth -1/4 - comparable to other -1/4 limitations.  If you decide to price it at -1/2, I would have to assess whether I am willing and able to make this come up often enough in-game to be worth -1/2.  If so, expect it to happen pretty regularly.  If not, then I would restrict it to -1/4.

I think the -1/4 is fair however the nature of the limitation doesn’t need GM input as far as I’m concerned. If the player chooses to use this power with this limitation then that’s the consequences of using it. For example I may have a Power with Lockout the GM doesnt need to make sure I use the Power nor has he. He only had to make sure that if the limitation is assigned and it comes up then those consequences must be enforced. I do agree though that if this Clip limitation seems to warrant a -1/2 then the player should get that value.

[unclevlad]

Yeah, the mechanical derivation doesn't necessarily work out, especially with Charges.  There's lots of moving parts.

 

The baseline reference to me, to determine how often the limitation has to affect things, is under the Limited Power guidelines.  A -1/4 limitation is either "loses about 1/4 of its effectiveness" or the condition affects him about 1/4 of the time.

 

So that would be for a 4 shot clip...not an 8 shot clip per se.  Yeah, the fact that swapping a clip is nominally a full phase action...that matters some, but I don't think it improves things *enough*.  It's offset by the fact that you'd lose 1 phase while taking 17 shots.  How long is this combat gonna go, anyway?  And in that long a time frame...assuming no autofire or multiple attacks, at least...there's a good chance that there'll be a window to spend the phase to swap the clip.

 

Granted:  there are limitations that kick in even less often...for the vast majority of Blast, RKA, or Flash constructions, the base points give an enormous range...so long that the range mod is a killer.  Even a 4d6 Blast has 20 base points, so 200 meter range.  That's -10 range mod.  No Range Mod is +1/2.  OK, if this is some NND, Does Body, then since NRM is still only on the base points, it doesn't add much.  Maybe you go that way.  But if it's a 10d6 Blast, that +1/2 is another 25 points on the active cost.  OR...you take the -1/4 limitation and shoot from 200 meters out...half range is 250...IF the situation justifies it.  (Hit the hex, or hit a ginormous target with a massive DCV penalty, or the like.)  Range beyond even 32 meters is getting to be a very tough shot *most* of the time...so decreasing even 200m max range to 100m results in almost no practical decrease in function.

 

Besides, this is a magic quiver.  How about we call it 8 shots per clip, then it's a *half phase* action for the quiver to conjure a new clip.  No limitation value.  This feels better to me anyway, because when you say magic quiver, *you* aren't completely tied up for the full phase.  The quiver's doing that.  You should be able to still do things.  YMMV here, of course.  The alternative would seem to be, ok, make the clips notional.  The quiver conjures up 8 rounds, and it takes a half phase action to command it to refresh the quiver.  (Which can be done at any time.)  So it's not "clips" or "charges" per se, it's basically just SFX.  

[LoneWolf]

Considering the delayed time full phase is a -1/2 limitation I don’t see how that this could ever be worth more than a -1/4 limitation at best.   In all honesty delayed time would probably be a better limitation to simulate drawing an arrow.  In Fantasy Hero firing a bow is a full phase action.  ½ phase to draw the arrow and another ½ phase to fire it.     

[Hugh Neilson]

The challenge is always the comparable.  Why should the character lose a half phase every time he uses up 8 shots, rather than just define an "ever-full quiver"?  He is clearly more limited than that.  If it comes up on occasion in the game, that merits a limitation.  It also means, as a GM, there is an onus on me to ensure it comes up on occasion.  Maybe that's a running fight with a horde of agents.  Maybe it's a Big Bad that takes a long time to take down. Or maybe I say "nope, won't come up often enough to merit a limitation at all, so just make the quiver always full".

[indy523]

6 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Yeah, the mechanical derivation doesn't necessarily work out, especially with Charges.  There's lots of moving parts.

 

The baseline reference to me, to determine how often the limitation has to affect things, is under the Limited Power guidelines.  A -1/4 limitation is either "loses about 1/4 of its effectiveness" or the condition affects him about 1/4 of the time.

 

The reason I took it from a -0L to a -1/4L at eight charges is that since it is a multipower bought as Expend END only to activate which is a +1/4 A instead of +1/2A for no end and since activating the clip is a full phase the character has to activate the clip at least once every two turns  and if they want to change the type of arrow they fire they have to activate it again.  To my mind that is enough combined to push it to -1/4L  I am not worrying about characters using it because if a character has options they will certainly want to use them.  This just makes them have to calculate when best to update.  Without that I would leave 8 at -0L and 4 at -1/4L.  I would never really move it to -1/2L because that is no end and thus would not be needed.  For arrows though eight in a clip seems reasonable.  A clip of four would be impractical so just would not be made.  That is not game mechanics just the reasonableness of how it would work.  I think with this added the limitation is fair.

[LoneWolf]

Another thing to consider is that the maximum advantage for charges is +1.  So, for a +1 advantage I can actually have an infinite number of charges.  Considering charges don’t cost END that means it is only costing you an extra +1/2 advantage.   

[SCUBA Hero]

47 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

The challenge is always the comparable.  Why should the character lose a half phase every time he uses up 8 shots, rather than just define an "ever-full quiver"?  He is clearly more limited than that.  If it comes up on occasion in the game, that merits a limitation.  It also means, as a GM, there is an onus on me to ensure it comes up on occasion.  Maybe that's a running fight with a horde of agents.  Maybe it's a Big Bad that takes a long time to take down. Or maybe I say "nope, won't come up often enough to merit a limitation at all, so just make the quiver always full".

 

Maybe something interferes with the magic to replenish the arrows...

 

In any case, I agree - if there's a -1/4 Limitation on the Power, it should come up enough to justify the Limitation.

[Ninja-Bear]

23 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

 

Maybe something interferes with the magic to replenish the arrows...

 

In any case, I agree - if there's a -1/4 Limitation on the Power, it should come up enough to justify the Limitation.

As I understood the OP, when he runs out he must take a Full Phase to replenish the arrows. That’s not enough justification? 

[LoneWolf]

The real question is how often he has to blow a phase?  If combat rarely last for more than two turns and he only needs to blow a phase after two turns that is not worth a limitation.   If he has to blow a phase once a turn, that might be worth a limitation.  It also depends on the characters SPD.  If the character has a low SPD than blowing a phase is more harmful so would justify a limitation.  If the character has a high SPD, especially one that has phases were no one else goes that is not as restrictive.

 

 

With the limited information I have this seems more like a player trying to find a limitation just to save points, instead of one trying to create a specific special effect.  The main reason it seems like that is the only cost END to start.   To me that does not make sense for a bow.  Why does firing the first arrow require the character expend energy, but after that it does not?  Cost END only to start should be used for something like spell that last after it is cast, not a attacking with a bow and arrow.  

 

 

If this where in a game I was running, I would not allow the Cost END only to start and would suggest they player use charges.  If they did not have any autofire attacks I would probably allow them to take 64 charges and not really worry about tracking the specific number of arrows.   Depending on the character full phase would also be appropriate, but not required.  If the player wants to play an archer more like Hawkeye the full phase would not be appropriate, but if they wanted to play more normal archer that would be an acceptable.  I could also see taking a lesser extra time maybe Delayed Phase drawing the arrow is faster than normal but still taking some time.

[Hugh Neilson]

Isn't "takes 1 phase to activate" -1/4?  That occurs once a combat, and can be activated pre-combat if the character has a bit of advance notice.  That seems pretty comparable.