Life Force Transfer Question For You Experts Out There!

[Longrife7211]

I am trying to grapple with the finer nuances of this system and use this power (listed below) as an example to break-down and to analyze what is going on here and why. Also, specific rules references noting book, chapter and verse is also appreciated! Please don't make assumptions that I know the basics of the system as you do. I am not offended by a long and elaborate explanation that seems to be stating the obvious (to you)!

 

For this power, there is a lot going on with drain, aid, unified power, only aid self, trigger, and linked:

 

1.) Noting the "plus" joining the two powers: what ability or rule makes it possible to have the AID automatically follow the DRAIN with the very same dice roll effect? Is LINKED making that possible? Is the UNIFIED POWER making that possible? Or is it the TRIGGER making that possible (or a combination of all 3)? Where in the rules is this specifically stated regarding "plus" effect?

 

2.) Also, how is it that they both use the same result of the dice and why aren't they rolled independently of one another? That would seem to be some kind of advantage, perhaps? Is this stated somewhere in the rules?

 

3.) Noting that the two powers are LINKED: isn't LINKED essentially a kind of TRIGGER? If one is joined to the other through LINKED, then doesn't that constitute a TRIGGER and why would a TRIGGER be necessary then if it seems to be inferred? For that matter, is it possible, in game terms, to have a LINKED condition that doesn't have a TRIGGER or vice versa?

 

4.) Would this power even work without a TRIGGER? If so, what would happen and how would it resolve itself, in terms of the rules, and the combat round? If TRIGGER was not added, how long would it normally take this power to execute? How long would it take to normally reset? Or would it?

 

5.) I have read the main HERO rule book to get clarification, but this fine difference between LINKED and TRIGGER, in this instance, has me baffled.

 

6.) Another issue for me is how ZERO PHASE actions work in relation to this power. Can someone elaborate on that, please? Does it apply in this situation? Does this need to be "turned on"? How do I identify a power that needs to be "turned on"?

 

 

LIFE FORCER TRANSFER (CHAMPIONS POWERS, PAGE 300)

Effect: Drain BODY 3d6 plus Aid
BODY 3d6, Only Aid Self
Target: One character/Self
Duration: Instant
Range: 300m/No Range
END Cost: 7
Description: This power is similar to Life Force
Drain II, but the power gives the drained life force
to the character, increasing his own life force for a
short time.
Game Information: Drain BODY 3d6 (30 Active
Points); Unified Power (-¼) (total cost: 24 points)
plus Aid BODY 3d6 (standard effect: same roll as
Drain dice), Trigger (when character uses Drain,
activating Trigger takes no time, Trigger immediately
automatically resets; +1) (36 Active Points);
Linked (-¼), Unified Power (-¼), Only Aid Self
(-1) (total cost: 14 points). Total cost: 38 points.

 

 

I love this depth of this system and want to master it! THANK YOU TO THE VETERAN RULES LAWYERS WHO CAN CLARIFY THIS ONE!

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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1.) Noting the "plus" joining the two powers: what ability or rule makes it possible to have the AID automatically follow the DRAIN with the very same dice roll effect? Is LINKED making that possible? Is the UNIFIED POWER making that possible? Or is it the TRIGGER making that possible (or a combination of all 3)? Where in the rules is this specifically stated regarding "plus" effect?

 

"Plus" is just shorthand indicating this is one single power with two effects. That way its not two separate powers, but a construction of two powers that acts as one.  Linked makes both powers go off at the same time, so it acts in unison (getting the "drain from you and give to me" in this context.  more on linked in a moment).

 

Unified Power makes both powers be affected at the same time if one is affected by an adjustment power.  Say, someone does a Drain on the Aid, then the Drain Body portion of the power is also reduced by the same amount.

 

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2.) Also, how is it that they both use the same result of the dice and why aren't they rolled independently of one another? That would seem to be some kind of advantage, perhaps? Is this stated somewhere in the rules?

 

They are rolled separately*; usually when I build a power like this I put a limitation on it that one power can only roll as high as the other power.  As its built, each could roll different numbers, so you get an Aid increasing your Body more than the Drain pulls from the target.

 

*as someone noted below you can buy it as "standard effect" and get the same result every time from the 3d6 (9 points).

 

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3.) Noting that the two powers are LINKED: isn't LINKED essentially a kind of TRIGGER? If one is joined to the other through LINKED, then doesn't that constitute a TRIGGER and why would a TRIGGER be necessary then if it seems to be inferred? For that matter, is it possible, in game terms, to have a LINKED condition that doesn't have a TRIGGER or vice versa?

 

Linked is kind of a trigger, but conceptually its different.  Ordinarily to use two powers like that you'd have to do them in order, one then the other, taking up time.  Further, according to the rules once you make an attack action (the drain) you cannot take any other actions.  So Linked makes them both go off at the same time no matter what you do (in this build). 

 

So you cannot just use Aid to increase your Body whenever you want, you can only use it when you drain someone else.  Trigger makes something go off on its own, like a timer on a bomb. The player doesn't even have to be involved, and it can act on a segment when the character's speed does not allow them to.

 

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4.) Would this power even work without a TRIGGER? If so, what would happen and how would it resolve itself, in terms of the rules, and the combat round? If TRIGGER was not added, how long would it normally take this power to execute? How long would it take to normally reset? Or would it?

 

Without the Linked, (not Trigger), You couldn't get the Aid to go off with the Drain.  It would have to go like this: Use Aid (zero phase action), then use Drain (half phase action).  Drain being an attack ends the character's phase; once a character attacks, they cannot take any other actions on that segment.  Attack actions take a half phase to execute.

 

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6.) Another issue for me is how ZERO PHASE actions work in relation to this power. Can someone elaborate on that, please? Does it apply in this situation? Does this need to be "turned on"? How do I identify a power that needs to be "turned on"?

 

Because it is built as a single power using linked, both go off at the same time (a half phase action, since one is an attack).  If they weren't linked, then the Aid would be a zero phase action; an action that takes the character no time but can only be done on their phase.

 

I hope that helps.

 

*Linked ties two powers together, usually designed so that they automatically go off at the same time.  However, the Linked limitation is very flexible and has a lot of different options, including one where you can use one of the powers on its own and not need to use the other.

[HeroGM]

#2 is using the Standard Effect Rule from 6e1p133, it can be used or not depending on how you want the power to work.

 

#3 Linked vs Trigger - Linked to me involves the powers being combined into one thing. I use this power, this also happens as part of it. Trigger is whatever is determined can happen. If someone touches me, if I touch someone, if someone comes within 3ft of me, etc. It can be a bit blurry

 

#6 0 phase are little things that take no time. This power would be a 1/2 phase action (or all depending on when you take it). That's the beauty of the trigger part is it's automatically activating the aid at the same time. As mentioned earlier, without the trigger you'd have to do 1 phase for the Drain, then wait until your next phase for the Aid if Trigger wasn't added. Since it resets automatically you may use it on your next phase again. As for 'turned on' - you have instant, constant and persistent powers. Life Force Transfer is a one at a time attack. If you want to keep doing it you have to make the attack each phase. If it was constant (6e1p127 than as long as you pumped END into it it'd work, BUT you'd have to declare and make your attack role first.

 

[Duke Bushido]

I know it isnt what you came here for, but this is most easily adressed by going to any pre-Steve edition and importing "Transfer" from any of the first 4 editions.

 

It is 15 it's per die, one die roll, no long list of modifiers and no subjective powers, etc:  roll the dice. Target loses that many points and you gain them.

 

The most complicated thing you might want to do is "Ranged" or maybe "Reduced END."  (Personally, I pay really close attention to any Transfer with that mix of modifiers on it).

 

 

[HeroGM]

25 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

I know it isnt what you came here for, but this is most easily adressed by going to any pre-Steve edition and importing "Transfer" from any of the first 4 editions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quick and Dirty Screencap from Hero System Rulebook (4th Edition)

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah, its not as flexible but its clean and easy to use.  In my opinion Hero should have several constructs like this as sort of "talent" builds to just use for short hand to build a character.  Smaller stat blocks, quicker and simpler to build.

[Lord Liaden]

I still use Transfer. Personally I never found it unbalancing, and it makes many effects so much easier to build and run. I never really grasped the rationale for removing it.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think it was less about removing and more about "what if you want to make the drain effect last longer?  What if you just want the Aid effect to last longer?  What if you want the Aid effect to have more dice than the Drain?"

 

And that's valid but its only valid if you want to make changes.  If you want to make it work just straight up, why not retain Transfer as a meta-build?  Ditto Suppress, Boost, etc.

[Duke Bushido]

Well, Stev doesnt answer rationale/ design philosophy questions, so we will never know.

 

We can make assumptions, though, and considering this was during the era of a chunk of the fandom echoing the idea of "reduce everything that can be reduced /combine everything that can be combined" that gave us a new and reduced Instant Change built on Transform that only has to break _one rule of Transform_ to actually work, I think we can safely assume that this was something else that grew out of that overall concept.

 

Taylor has once well-defended the idea that the new version is more flexible, because it is possible to modify one side of the power without affecting the other.  He is not wrong, of course, but I maintain that we had already been doing that for years when it fit the character via custom or "limited" limitations and advantages, which still generally resulted in builds less cumbersome than doing it by the current guidelines.

 

I am not saying the new guidelones don't work; I am saying that always could do that, but it was really only useful for two specific effects: when thw effect of one was limited to _but necessarily equal to_ the other, such as the ancient crime who drains the life from ten maidens but only adds a scant few days to her own life (amount Aided or Healed (edition-dependant) limited by amount Drained)  or the reverse-  say the Hero has an ability that allows him to "borrow" a small amiunt of vitality from a person, but it supercharges him beyond what he took (amount Drained likited by amount Aided or Healed).

 

I have even used this build, some,years ago, for a fantasy game:

 

Unbeknownst to the Pcs, a beloved NPC immortal sorceror was only "immortal" because he had unlocked the secret of transferring life from one person to himself.

 

To sum it up, he Drained Body and he 'Healed' Body into a latge pool.  The Healing was limited to the amount Drained, but it was prerry common to roll _less_ than that amount, meaning he had to take more than he received.

 

The Body Healing was bought with a ridiculous upper limit (because there reallly isnt one in 2e, which is my preferred edition) and to fade at 1 per day (which is stupidly expwnsive in 2e, but he was more or a subplot than an active adventurer, so...). 

 

Body would be lost through normal means such as combat, etc.  He also had a Disasvantage that he just lost 2 Body per day, regardless of injury, which constantly kept him on the prowl.

 

At any rate, him and Billy Batalion (a literal everyman superhero) wherw the only two instances where I used a cobbke similar to the current rules.

 

For evertrhing else, Transfer has workwd just fine.  I even reworked Billy Batalion to Transfer just to save space on the C-sheet.  (though eventually I ditched it entirely, realizing it was just a special effecr of him existing at all, and as such, didn't actually need to,be written up).

 

Well that drifted a bit....

 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

5 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I still use Transfer. Personally I never found it unbalancing, and it makes many effects so much easier to build and run. I never really grasped the rationale for removing it.

 

I found Transfer problematic more for rulings related to it. It is simply Drain + Aid.

 

The need to pay twice for delayed return or similar was an issue, but the possibility that one aspect lasted longer than the other should be included.  The ruling that the Drain element stopped working if the Aid aspect was maxed out was an issue.  Adding Range was overpriced when the Aid did not benefit from the range.  Why could we not have a Transfer that healed rather than Aided?

 

I suspect, if we had Drain and Aid from the start (e.g. Fantasy Hero), there would never have been a separate Transfer.

 

The Life Force Transfer works in the same manner, costs less and continues to Drain after the Aid is maximized.   Extending the recovery period  does not require paying for the same advantage twice as it would be applied to each aspect separately.  One aspect is missing - a Limitation on the Aid that it is reduced by any Power Defense of the target of the Drain, and requires the Drain to hit.

[Hugh Neilson]

OK, I'll take a shot...

 

17 hours ago, Longrife7211 said:

I am trying to grapple with the finer nuances of this system and use this power (listed below) as an example to break-down and to analyze what is going on here and why. Also, specific rules references noting book, chapter and verse is also appreciated! Please don't make assumptions that I know the basics of the system as you do. I am not offended by a long and elaborate explanation that seems to be stating the obvious (to you)!

 

For this power, there is a lot going on with drain, aid, unified power, only aid self, trigger, and linked:

 

1.) Noting the "plus" joining the two powers: what ability or rule makes it possible to have the AID automatically follow the DRAIN with the very same dice roll effect? Is LINKED making that possible? Is the UNIFIED POWER making that possible? Or is it the TRIGGER making that possible (or a combination of all 3)? Where in the rules is this specifically stated regarding "plus" effect?

 

"Plus" just means the Drain and Aid are a single compound power. 

 

The Trigger allows the Aid to be activated by the use of the Drain.

 

17 hours ago, Longrife7211 said:

2.) Also, how is it that they both use the same result of the dice and why aren't they rolled independently of one another? That would seem to be some kind of advantage, perhaps? Is this stated somewhere in the rules?

 

It's a simple handwave.  To me, it is neither an advantage nor a limitation - it does not change the average results.

 

17 hours ago, Longrife7211 said:

3.) Noting that the two powers are LINKED: isn't LINKED essentially a kind of TRIGGER? If one is joined to the other through LINKED, then doesn't that constitute a TRIGGER and why would a TRIGGER be necessary then if it seems to be inferred? For that matter, is it possible, in game terms, to have a LINKED condition that doesn't have a TRIGGER or vice versa?

 

Linked simply means that that the Aid cannot be used in isolation - the Drain must also be used.  I could buy a Lightning Bolt which does 10d6 Blast and 2d6 Sight Flash and Link them so the Blast is required in order to use the Flash.  This would not need Trigger, as a Blast and a Flash could be used as a Combined Attack regardless.  The Aid needs a Trigger as it does not target the same person as the Drain and is not an attack (despite using an Attack action).  A Trigger could be anything - "every time I say Power Up, I get the3d6 BOD Aid", for example, would be the exact same Aid build.

 

17 hours ago, Longrife7211 said:

4.) Would this power even work without a TRIGGER? If so, what would happen and how would it resolve itself, in terms of the rules, and the combat round? If TRIGGER was not added, how long would it normally take this power to execute? How long would it take to normally reset? Or would it?

 

With no Trigger, the Aid would not activate in combination with the Drain.  The character would have to attack using the Drain in one phase, and use the Aid in a second phase.  The construct would not function without the Trigger.

 

17 hours ago, Longrife7211 said:

5.) I have read the main HERO rule book to get clarification, but this fine difference between LINKED and TRIGGER, in this instance, has me baffled.

 

6.) Another issue for me is how ZERO PHASE actions work in relation to this power. Can someone elaborate on that, please? Does it apply in this situation? Does this need to be "turned on"? How do I identify a power that needs to be "turned on"?

 

By default, the Aid and Drain would each require an attack action.  The Trigger causes the Aid to be activated by use of the Drain ("takes no time" is only for the Aid - the Drain requires the usual Attack action).  I'm not sure where you are seeing a zero phase action as an issue.  The Drain is "turned on" or activated by making an attack with the Drain, and the Trigger causes the Aid to activate at the same time.  The Trigger then resets itself so the Aid will go off the next time the Drain is used.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I maintain that we had already been doing that for years when it fit the character via custom or "limited" limitations and advantages, which still generally resulted in builds less cumbersome than doing it by the current guidelines.

 

That's a problem I have building stuff in Hero Designer now.  Yes, its very precise and covers all the bases, yes it gives exactitude to flexibility rather than "eh, wave my hand, its a -¼" but you end up with these gargantuan stat blocks in Hero Designer.  I have a lot of Compound Powers that are a yard long in Hero Designer for spells because its Power Defense plus Flash Defense plus Resistant Defense plus Mental Defense resist magic, and each one has all the modifiers.

 

That's a big reason why in my upcoming spell book for the Jolrhos campaign, I dumped all that in the write ups and left it in Hero Designer where its at least controllable and can be looked at individually

[steriaca]

I still love the simplicity of Transfer compared to the Drain/Aid combo. Then again, I still like Instant Change also.

 

I would love to see both powers return as optional powers for the next Advance Player's Guide book.

 

Maybe also something about "off the book" powers. Minor powers which have no cost at all because they can't be an attack or defense or movement and gives no advantage or disadvantage. 

[Tech]

20 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I still use Transfer. Personally I never found it unbalancing, and it makes many effects so much easier to build and run. I never really grasped the rationale for removing it.

I also still use Transfer, as does the group I'm in.  (I also still use the simpler Instant Change; simple is better.)