Champions and horror mechanics

[Monick51]

Hi, I'm brand new to the Hero system and I really like it! I've been making characters in hero designer and slowly wrapping my head around the rules with Champions complete. I have a campaign idea that I want to run but I need help mechanically realizing the higher concept stuff. 

The premise is that people gain powers via a new drug that temporarily gives powers based on genetics (hence why the same drug can give different powers to different people). Each time they use the drug they gain powers but at the cost of slowly eroding their humanity.  I realized that I want the characters to almost be like lovecraft protagonists and the powers they gain are the equivalent of eldritch knowledge, miraculous and defying logic but also slowly degrading their body and mind. 

The reason I am making this post is because I have the vision, but I don't have the fluent knowledge of the rules to make it work. Any ideas on how this sort of thing could be portrayed mechanically? I know that there's an old source book called Horror Hero, I have not looked into it yet, would that be a good place to start or would it be a waste of time?  

[LoneWolf]

One way to do it would be to require characters to take additional complications when they gain powers.   For every x points of power they have to have y amount of complications.  Since this will affect all characters it is not a limitation on the powers.   For example every 50 points of powers requires 5 point of complications.  The character can buy skills and other abilities, but any powers gained by using the drug have its price.  Put some limits on what complications can be used for this.  For Example, picking up a DNPC is not appropriate, but becoming hideously deformed is.   

[Lord Liaden]

It sounds like you want this to be a progressive loss of "humanity," triggered by each use of the drug to gain powers. The powers last a defined length of time, and when the time expires the characters return to their normal state until they take the drug again. Do I have that right?

 

If that is the case, I would suggest either buying all the Powers a character gains after taking the drug with the Limitation, "Only in Alternate Identity" (OIAID), or as a Multiform, Limited by needing to take the drug, if the change is more obvious and radical.  I would give the character a Complication, "Susceptibility: Xd6 Transform to inhuman state each time character takes drug." Transform can be Body, Mind and/or Spirit depending on your concept. You might also work in the Partial Transform Advantage if you want the progress of the change to be noticeable.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Lord Liaden

[Duke Bushido]

You wouldn't be wasting your time, per se, but it doesn't have what you want.

 

What you are suggesting, ultimately, is a character with a limited life span-  call it what you want: limited sanity; limited life span; becomes one with the cosmos after X event-  whatever.

 

 

This can be handled two ways.  The first and most practical-  and oddly, the most difficult, is to handle this narratively.  Keep hammering home  the impending change, the nature of the horror, and keep the specter fresh and ever-present for the players.

 

The problem with this is the Great Numb.  It is the same problem presented by grimdark settings and the recent wave of Superman universe movies:  you keep hammering home the dark and moody and the players  either begin to suffer from low-key depression or just get so overwhelmed they stop noticing or, at the extreme, even caring.

 

 

The other option is to handle the situation mechanically.  You can create a new mechanic, or you can use an existing one.  What you are ultimately after is timer, after all.  You don't necessarily want to have the players know that "in sixteen sessions, my mind is going to slip and I start chucking villagers into volcanoes" or anything like that, but you do want to keep the suspense real for the players, and perhaps add some uncertainty as to "when the thing happens."

 

There was a comic book movie I saw years and years ago-  it was....  Not good, but the premise was that some guy died, went to Hell, and came back with super powers.  The caveat was that he had X amount of 'Hell Power' or whatever it was, and he could use as much as he wanted at any time, but when it was all gone, back to Hell he went for eternal punishment.

 

This is, after a fashion, a timer.

 

This also works really well with the given HERO mechanics:  each character starts with a five thousand point non-recovering END pool ("fuel charge" for certain editions), and when it is used up, poof!  Full-on demon.

 

Or manufacture a new tracking characterisitic-  Mana or something.

 

Use it to power abilities, and when it is gone, Time's Up, so to speak.  You can even mandate an automated loss (a point a day, more, less- whatever) so that the end is inevitable.

 

In this case, though, I wouldn't make them pay for this time limit pool, unless you are allowing pools of any size, etc.  It is just how powers are defined to work in this universe, and the more power you use, the faster you will burn out.

 

For what it is worth, I like this one the most as it really does keep the situation in the player's minds, and even ups the tension ante by providing them a scant few tools to manage the rate if their descent, and require them to make in the spot decisions about power usage even knowing that they are hastening the end.  Additionally, I love a good ensemble cast in a long-running show, and nothing says "ensemble cast" like characters with built-in expiration dates.

 

 

A third and more complicated method is to decide that final disaster is just at hing in this world, but stat it up as some sort of T-form, stat out how everything interacts with that T-form, how to slow it down, what accelerates it, etc, but at the end if the day, that is just a method for you to feel really clever about yourself, because the end result is the same as the simpler "timer pool" mechanic, plus you have added bookkeeping that is way more complicated than "deduct another four points" but doesn't change the end result in any significant way (unless you forgot to line-out the "damage heals back" thing, in which case T-form is a long-con get-out-of-jail-free card for the players).

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Duke Bushido

[Doc Democracy]

I like the idea of the fixed pool, where they can see things diminish and the end draw closer.  The key for me would be that the campaign would need to have a discernable end-point, a goal that the characters are seeking to achieve so that their sacrifice might be for some greater good. 

 

I would also like there to be some random element - not simply spending 10 END and crossing it off the pool.  I think I might ask the player to roll a dice for every END they burn, count BODY to remove from the pool, sixes get rolled again and double each time they are rolled, so the 10 END power means that 10D6 are rolled, 2 1's, two 6's and ther rest scoring in between.  That is 10 off the pool, but the 2D6 roll again, a 4 and another 6.  This time the BODY count is 2 for the 4, 4 for the 6 and the six rolls again.  a 5 costs another 3, meaning a final total of 19 from the pool....

 

You might think it is evil but it ramps up the tension of spending END from the pool which is what a horror game probably needs....

[DentArthurDent]

So, each time they use the drug, they gain powers and lose ‘humanity’? That’s sounds great!

 

I had a GM do that with a couple of NPCs. But I’m pretty sure he increased the powers and decreased the ‘humanity’ based solely on dramatic effect. And it was effective. We knew that each time we met them, they would be more powerful and less rational.  But we never knew how much they would change.

One thing I would caution against: Call of Cthulhu uses a stat called Sanity. Avoid that! Mental illnesses are not a loss of humanity.

Instead, be specific. Using the drug causes a lack of focus, or depression, or increases anxiety, or loss of inhibition. Or maybe it’s different for different people, or different each time it’s used. 

 

REMEMBER: Having a mental health condition doesn’t make someone less ‘human’. Millions of people live and cope with mild and less severe conditions every day. More severe conditions force people to make greater changes to their lives.
 

Some good resources to start with in identifying mental disorders are:

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/servicesandsupport/types-of-mental-health-issues-and-illnesses

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/mental-disorders

 

[Lord Liaden]

DAD, you raise IMO a very interesting question: Mental illness is not loss of humanity, but can loss of humanity look like mental illness? Do we need to use the same categories to define things that have both natural and "supernatural" causes?

 

Let's consider the old standby, possession by evil spirits or demons. We now understand that that explanation was applied in the past to people who were simply suffering from some type of infection, trauma, or inherited defect. But in fiction, possession by a malevolent intelligence may actually be possible. The victim may perform acts of "evil" that could be explained by mundane causes for mental aberration, but in this case the cause is far from mundane.

 

I remember a story arc from the television series Supernatural some years ago, in which one of the lead characters literally lost his soul, even though he still lived and retained his sapience. But he stopped displaying qualities we consider normal for human beings -- compassion, empathy, moral restraint. Again, these qualities can be manifestations of a mental illness, but aren't in his case.

 

There's an official Champions villain called Tesseract, whose mind was invaded and altered by beings from a Sixth Dimension, a place of "hyperperception" and utilizing "hypermathematics." Tesseract's mind was expanded as a result, allowing her to manipulate reality in various ways at will. However, she no longer entirely thinks or perceives the world the way other human beings do. Is this an illness, or an enhancement? Both? Neither?

 

The Champions Universe also has a variety of extra-dimensional entities whose minds are literally alien to us. Their thought processes are in many ways incomprehensible by us beyond a very basic level.

[Ockham's Spoon]

In my mind the real question is what does it mean for characters to lose their humanity?  Do they become amoral killers? Do they start growing scales and tentacles?  Is the condition fatal or do they just become something else?  Once you nail down exactly what it means to lose their humanity, you can assign mechanical effects in gaming terms, using some of the excellent suggestions already put forth.

[Monick51]

On 7/4/2023 at 10:44 PM, DentArthurDent said:

So, each time they use the drug, they gain powers and lose ‘humanity’? That’s sounds great!

 

I had a GM do that with a couple of NPCs. But I’m pretty sure he increased the powers and decreased the ‘humanity’ based solely on dramatic effect. And it was effective. We knew that each time we met them, they would be more powerful and less rational.  But we never knew how much they would change.

One thing I would caution against: Call of Cthulhu uses a stat called Sanity. Avoid that! Mental illnesses are not a loss of humanity.

Instead, be specific. Using the drug causes a lack of focus, or depression, or increases anxiety, or loss of inhibition. Or maybe it’s different for different people, or different each time it’s used. 

 

REMEMBER: Having a mental health condition doesn’t make someone less ‘human’. Millions of people live and cope with mild and less severe conditions every day. More severe conditions force people to make greater changes to their lives.
 

Some good resources to start with in identifying mental disorders are:

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/servicesandsupport/types-of-mental-health-issues-and-illnesses

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/mental-disorders

 

Agreed! I don't want to fall into the old batman trope of "He's evil because he's CrImiNAlLy InSanE!". I was actually thinking it would be less of a sanity mechanic and more of a "basic order functions are being lost" until you're just a shambling husk, a vessel for your power

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, Monick51 said:

Agreed! I don't want to fall into the old batman trope of "He's evil because he's CrImiNAlLy InSanE!". I was actually thinking it would be less of a sanity mechanic and more of a "basic order functions are being lost" until you're just a shambling husk, a vessel for your power

 

Hmm.  I think you might want to think about having an accidental change.  So, you might have the potential for losing control, where an evil entity essentially drives you.  So you have control of your body and mind and the use of these powers but there are times when you are either unaware of your actions or a helpless oberver.  The accidental change maintains the same powerset but switches the controlling personality.  It is very rare to begin with, possibly 3 or less when triggered but, over time, becomes more and more common.  The trigger for the accidental change becoming greater and greater and the chance to change back less and less.  Until eventually the trigger is 18 or less and the recover is 3 or less, possibly only becoming aware long enough to despair at what you have become.

 

It would need a good player and a detailed idea of what the subversive personality would be, potential drives and objectives...

 

Doc

[dmjalund]

Isn't a horror mechanic someone they use to repair the Munsters' car?

[Lord Liaden]

And who services Christine.

[Duke Bushido]

On 7/4/2023 at 6:33 PM, Doc Democracy said:

I like the idea of the fixed pool, where they can see things diminish and the end draw closer.

 

Precisely:  it actually makes it both easier on the GM, who no longer has to keep pressing danger / horror / inevitable outcome, and more tangible to the players, as the risk is not only real and easy to grasp, but it comes with management toola that are in their own hands.

 

First, I have do say it is an idea I have been toying with _in this specific application_ (I use it a lot for magic spells to enchant others-- the fuel charge, I mean) since someone here a few weeks back mentioned a comic book-  Strikeforce Mortuary?  I dont remember; I remember it was an odd name, but definitely Strikeforce something.  Anyway, the premise was you took some procedure, got superpowers, and were dead within X time, but (I think)  didnt know exactly when.

 

Putting all the powers and abilities on a shared duel charge seemed like an ideal base for this idea, which put me in mind of that god awful movie about the guy who escaped from Hell and his entire existence was on a fuel charge.

 

Anyway, --

 

No, wait.  There is a better place.

 

 

 

 

On 7/4/2023 at 6:33 PM, Doc Democracy said:

 

  The key for me would be that the campaign would need to have a discernable end-point, a goal that the characters are seeking to achieve so that their sacrifice might be for some greater good. 

 

Agreed, but I would be good with one of two possible uses:

 

First, as you state, the campaign has a specific goal, and upon completion of this goal, the game is over.  This means the characters have at least a chance of surviving and then putting down their super powers and living out whatever remains of their lives.

 

I would be equally happy with a campaign that _does have_ a logical "good ending"  (repeling the alien invaders and saving the world; destroting the last of the elder horrors before he devours the sun-  whatever)  that may not ever actually be attained within the lives of a particular set of characters, but everything that the characters do achieve moves closer to that goal, and makes it more attainable by those who will come later, whether that be another batch of PCs or not.

 

In short, so long as the decisions of the characters have _significant_ impact on making the goal more attainable- so long as success- even if attained by others later- is obviously only attainable because of what these characters do--

 

Well, I would be good with that, too.

 

 

On 7/4/2023 at 6:33 PM, Doc Democracy said:

I would also like there to be some random element - not simply spending 10 END and crossing it off the pool. 

 

There it is.

 

There is the better place. 

 

There are a lot of things I have toyed with during this thought exercise, and specifically for that reason:   suppose, like in Strikeforce Whooziwhatsis, the end goal is noble sacrifice?  Suppose it is important to the overall story that at least one character does in fact die, or that at least one death be completely  inevitable (you grimdark jackass, you.    ).

 

Roll a die every day.  Deduct either the STUN or BODY (or both) from the pool every day.

 

BODY damage affects the pool.   Any time a character takes BODY damage, some portion (any portion, even 200 percent if you like) is deducted from the pool.

 

Crises- deeply stressful situations like overcoming a psychological limitation or having to make an EGO check-  if a roll is failed, an amount of points related to the failure is deducted.

 

Ghoulishness-  perhaps these abilities come with ability to draw upon the pools of others as well as or instead of your own?

 

More heroic:  some sort of minor (or major, even) healing ability is granted to everyone who gains these fuel charge powers, but not only is the END xost of the power paid from the pool, but all "healed" points are paid out of the pool as well?

 

Certainly "roll your daily deduction" drives home the ticking of a clockspring that will never be wound again, aa does mking the pool a tertiary damage tracker of sorts, but don't forget the dramatic potential of making it very, very difficult for a noble character to _not_ use his abilities.

 

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

5 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Suppose it is important to the overall story that at least one character does in fact die, or that at least one death be completely  inevitable (you grimdark jackass, you.    ).

 

What if a character death gave a minor boost to everyone else?  That kind of pushes toward the noble sacrifice...

[Duke Bushido]

Excellent idea, Sir!

 

Perhaps x amount of pool or xD6 of pool gets refilled, or a brief reduction or moratorium on pool costs for a length of time?

 

 

[Monick51]

Ok so I had an idea for a mechanic that I like: each time the PC's take the drug they get a certain boost to all stats and they get powers. However, once the drug wears off they notice not only does the boost wear off but it takes some of their original stats with it. Once they take the drug again they are back up to their boosted state but once it wears off they find they are even further depleted. I'm thinking of it almost like if every time Billy Batson says the magic "Shazam" he's buff and strong but once he turns back into regular old Billy he's gaunt and has hair falling out. So, it's a multiform with a funky custom limiter, that much is obvious.

That's all well and good but as I thought about it more something bothered me: if they can just pop the drugs to regain their superheroic stats it doesn't really matter how bad their stats are in their civilian identity. They'll need to pop the drugs if they want access to their power, so they won't really have to worry about their decay because they won't be caught out without their powers... unless they burn through the drugs in their system mid-combat.

This is what I'm trying to figure out: how long should the powers last? A round? a few phases? What I want to achieve is that their multiform only lasts a little while in combat. This forces them to resort to risky methods to end fights early OR to snort the possibly contaminated drugs off the floor, quaff some unstable reagent, or spend their move action frantically searching for the villain's stash in order to continue fighting. If they don't get their hands on more then they risk reverting back to their increasingly frail civilian identities. 

[DentArthurDent]

This is starting to sound like a graphic novel. 
 

I really like the mechanic of losing more and more of their original stats. Let us know how it goes, I’d like to try it.

[Monick51]

Thanks! I'm excited to see how it shakes out at the table

 

[MrAgdesh]

On 7/3/2023 at 11:33 PM, Duke Bushido said:

 

The problem with this is the Great Numb.  It is the same problem presented by grimdark settings and the recent wave of Superman universe movies:  you keep hammering home the dark and moody and the players  either begin to suffer from low-key depression or just get so overwhelmed they stop noticing or, at the extreme, even caring.

Maybe if the GM sold this as a four color campaign, but if he’s honest from the get go that this has a heavy Lovecraftian bent, and those players are still up

for it, then it shouldn’t be a problem. Cthulhu players lap up Dark and Moody (and far worse).