Mind Control limitation question

[Tech]

I'd like to build a Mind Control with the limitation: only to calm people down. This primarily works on people with Enraged or Berserk, although I suppose if a NPC was sufficiently irate, it could work on them. What would you put that at? -3/4, -1.5, something else?

[Grailknight]

Who's using it and on whom?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'd give it at least a -1 limitation; that's a pretty specific and rare circumstance.

[Tech]

23 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

Who's using it and on whom?

  I don't see how that affects anything but to answer: a hero will have the power and will undoubtedly use it on a villain someday.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well it could matter in this sense:

 

Is it a power just used to control a fellow player character?  Like Marvel Girl using her telepathy to calm Wolverine?  Because then the rarity is much, much lower and it isn't worth as much of a limitation.

[Steven Wayde]

I like to find existing examples developed by the game designer(s) to provide guidance with questions like this. There are a few examples in Champions Powers similar to what you’re describing. Page 122 lists how Emotion Control is used and mentions, among other emotions, affecting the target’s “calmness.” The limitation is -1.

 

Mind Control; Only To Alter/Inflict One Emotional State (-1).

 

There are a couple of other examples which use Set Effect at the -1 level (stop and pay attention only to me, don’t hurt me).

 

Also, you might want to consider a mental Transform.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Steven Wayde

[Tech]

I avoided Transform because Transform works against the Body of an opponent, Mind Control against Ego. It makes more sense for it to be Mind Control; it's also cheaper than Transform with the -1 Limit.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Transform would also have a very long-term effect; they could not ever go enraged or berserk until the ability wore off or the circumstances you set were met (which could be "end of combat" or something like that, I suppose).  And yeah its a lot more expensive.  You could in theory base it off Ego but that might end up an advantage based on how common high Ego is in your campaign.

[unclevlad]

Transform can target Mind, but Mind Control is specifically designed to do this.  Any time you have a power written up to do something, IMO, Transform is OUT.  

 

-1 seems reasonable, in that the mentalist isn't restricting the target's actions...BUT, I'd want to consider the effect level required.  What level's needed for "calm down, everything will be OK"?  

 

Note that it's also a great power to use on a victim who's hysterical.  With AoE, it could help quell panic to, for example, facilitate an orderly evacuation.  Use it to defuse an angry encounter, so it doesn't escalate to violence.

 

It's not all that rare.  And, it can also be argued to build it without limits...just without massive effects available.  I'd rather see a much smaller limitation applied, like "only to calm, not incite" with fewer dice involved.

[Sketchpad]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Is it a power just used to control a fellow player character?  Like Marvel Girl using her telepathy to calm Wolverine?  Because then the rarity is much, much lower and it isn't worth as much of a limitation.

 

If it was "Just to Calm Wolverine"? I would see that as a -2 at least. It's VERY specific and only affects one being.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Mind Control is always really subjective but I would consider this an EGO + 20 to calm a panicked person and +30 to calm berserk.  That's a lot of dice for someone with even a modicum of willpower.

[Steven Wayde]

There's an "Alter/Inflict Emotions Table" in Champions Powers on p. 123 that might be useful. One of the tables is for "Sadness," which could be modified for "Calmness."

[Grailknight]

14 hours ago, Tech said:

  I don't see how that affects anything but to answer: a hero will have the power and will undoubtedly use it on a villain someday.

 

It's a matter of campaign utility. If none of the other PC's have Enraged/Berserk, then just used the guidelines for Emotions only. If, however your group has one or more members that constantly go out of control, the utility greatly increases, and I'd knock -1/4 off the Limitation. It's still a Limited power but it's no longer niche. 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Grailknight

[LoneWolf]

About a -1 limitation seems about right.  It is fairly limiting on what it causes the target to do, but at the same time it has a lot of applications besides just stopping an enraged or berserk character. Used in the right circumstances it can prevent a lot situations from getting out of hand.   

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Mind Control is always really subjective but I would consider this an EGO + 20 to calm a panicked person and +30 to calm berserk.  That's a lot of dice for someone with even a modicum of willpower.

 

It is very subjective.  +20 is "target will perform an action he is normally against doing."  +10 is "wouldn't mind doing".  Overcoming panic feels like something they'd WANT to do.  To be sure, working past the panic is a factor.  The question is...how large a factor.  Same with berserk...and the target's other Psych Lims clearly come into play.

 

I start from the basis that someone panicking *wants* to be reassured, and wants to calm down.  So I'm starting from Ego +0...and the question becomes, how much of a penalty does being panicked add.  There's no absolute answer here;  it's a question for the GM and player to resolve.  AND, it talks about what the value of the limitation for this should be.  Because a -1 limitation is a big one.  

[Gauntlet]

30 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

It is very subjective.  +20 is "target will perform an action he is normally against doing."  +10 is "wouldn't mind doing".  Overcoming panic feels like something they'd WANT to do.  To be sure, working past the panic is a factor.  The question is...how large a factor.  Same with berserk...and the target's other Psych Lims clearly come into play.

 

Problem with "Want to Do" in this case is that despite the fact that they want to do it, they can't. That is what's making it rather difficult. I do agree that panicked would be much lower than Berserk. But what about Enraged, would it be lower than Berserk?

[unclevlad]

They can't...without help.  The mind control is the help.  That's why I don't think the base difficulty should be that high.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah its up to discussion really.  Does a berserk person want to be berserk?  I would argue that yes, very much at the time they are totally into it, but equally you could argue that deep down they really don't want to be berserk, so its just a push to free them.  But does it being buried so deeply make it more challenging to accomplish? A panicked person probably doesn't want to be panicked, but their entire nature and psyche at the time is wrapped up in fear and anxiety, so do they really want to not be?  How do you define what someone's will is in this context?  Is one of it surface and the other deeper?

Edited October 10, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[Gauntlet]

17 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah its up to discussion really.  Does a berserk person want to be berserk?  I would argue that yes, very much at the time they are totally into it, but equally you could argue that deep down they really don't want to be berserk, so its just a push to free them.  But does it being buried so deeply make it more challenging to accomplish? A panicked person probably doesn't want to be panicked, but their entire nature and psyche at the time is wrapped up in fear and anxiety, so do they really want to not be?  How do you define what someone's will is in this context?  Is one of it surface and the other deeper?

 

One way it might be done is that when you hit a berserk or enraged person with mind control to stop them and get their ego, it allows them to make a recovery roll with perhaps a bonus of +1 for each 10 points over their ego you established on the roll. 

[Steven Wayde]

I try this occasionally with my wife. I keep telling her to just "calm down."

 

...i've never hit that Mandatory Effect...

 

Cost: 1 point

Get My Wife To Calm Down:  Mind Control 1d6 (Alien class of minds) (5 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Hour, -3), Requires A Roll (8- roll; -1 1/4), Eye Contact Required (Constant Power requires eye contact throughout use; -1), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; Complex; must speak calmly and clearly so she can understand me; -1), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (0 DCV; -1), Set Effect (only to get her to just calm down dang it; -1), Mandatory Effect EGO +30 or Greater (-3/4), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Side Effects (must sleep in other bedroom; -1/2), Can Be Deflected (you gotta know my wife; -1/4), Reduced By Range (voice range; -1/4)

[unclevlad]

29 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah its up to discussion really.  Does a berserk person want to be berserk?  I would argue that yes, very much at the time they are totally into it, but equally you could argue that deep down they really don't want to be berserk, so its just a push to free them.  But does it being buried so deeply make it more challenging to accomplish? A panicked person probably doesn't want to be panicked, but their entire nature and psyche at the time is wrapped up in fear and anxiety, so do they really want to not be?  How do you define what someone's will is in this context?  Is one of it surface and the other deeper?

 

That part may also be addressed with the berserk person's psych lims...which already allow for their own adjustment.

 

No one wants to be panicked.   It is NOT fun.  I had one instance where I think I had a legit panic attack...happened to be dozing off, got a sense that someone was in the room, and I HAD to wake up and do something.  Thrashed around HARD...tossing myself out of bed, and *slamming* my thigh into the corner of a solid oak table.  The bruising lasted WEEKS, it was so bad.  

 

The factor I'd use isn't related to that.  It's, can you effectively address the source of the panic?  If it's based on, say, seeing a personal bogeyman...someone who's assaulted you in the past, is now in the same room with you...then the panic might well be at +20 or even +30, depending on the severity.  (I'm being family friendly, and NOT using the terms that might be +30, but you should get the idea.)  It wouldn't be enough to remove the threat...you'd need to *negate* it.  And sometimes even that wouldn't be enough...if the victim believes the threat can't be removed long term.

 

So, yeah, it's a mess.  

 

Another angle here...is this a standalone power?  I'm generally less inclined to offer a Limited Power/situation-based limitation the same level of reduction when it's in a framework...this is kinda the flip side of the extended discussion on NNDs and AVADs in a VPP.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I try this occasionally with my wife. I keep telling her to just "calm down."

 

Probably should have more than one side effect, always goes off

[Marcus]

I value limitations by looking at the mirror of it. If ‘only to calm people down’ is -1, then ‘for anything other than calming people down’ is also…-1.  If the first is -2, then the inverse is -1/2.  You get what you pay for.

So.. what would you charge this character, in this campaign, for mind control that can do anything *except* calm people down?

 

[LoneWolf]

When you go against a psychological complication the strength of the complication is used to determine the level of mind control needed.  I would suggest that an enraged or berserk look at the recovery to determine the level of control needed.  The recovery chance is based on how easy it is for the character to overcome his rage.   A recovery of 14 or less might be an EGO +10, an 11 or less an EGO +20 and a 8 or less would be a EGO +30.   Straight EGO I feel is inappropriate because the character does have to excerpt some effort to calm down.  

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, Marcus said:

I value limitations by looking at the mirror of it. If ‘only to calm people down’ is -1, then ‘for anything other than calming people down’ is also…-1.  If the first is -2, then the inverse is -1/2.  You get what you pay for.

So.. what would you charge this character, in this campaign, for mind control that can do anything *except* calm people down?

 

THIS - 100%

 

It is neither easier nor more difficult to calm the same targets down with unlimited Mind Control.  This limitation removes other things that could be done.  The jailer won't unlock the door.  The henchman won't tell you Da Boss's plans.  Mind control can do a lot. This limited version can't do all that much.