Healing with Knockback

[Christopher R Taylor]

Something worth considering is that very few Fantasy Hero settings have knockback as an activated option, most heroic campaigns use knockdown instead.  After all, Conan doesn't knock his enemies flying through walls or down the street.  So that's another advantage, jamming active cost up even more :/

 

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Therefore, you can't take No Range on the Blast, IMO;  it's implied. 

 

Its implied in the concept, but not the mechanics; you get the limitation on Blast.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[unclevlad]

11 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Its implied in the concept, but not the mechanics; you get the limitation on Blast.

 

That, to me, violates the metarule that an limitation that isn't limiting, isn't worth points.  I will grant, tho...there's some rules that work the other way.  If you want this...it's a 5E build, BTW:

Teleportation 15", No Relative Velocity, Position Shift, x8 Noncombat, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (69 Active Points)

 

and this:

Cross Country Jump (2-300 km):  MegaScale (1" = 10 km; +1/2), Can Be Scaled Down 1" = 1km (+1/4) for up to 41 Active Points of Teleport (31 Active Points)

 

You technically have to pay for the megascale on the entire 69 points...even tho the x8 NonCom is invalidated.  This build's purely for my amusement, so I don't care.  And I *could* structure it differently...the non-coms can be isolated as a naked adder.  

 

So it's not that big a deal to allow the No Range, overall...and heck, it's Fantasy Hero anyway.  Pile on every limitation you possibly can, got to get those costs down!!!!!

UGH.

 

 

[sevrick]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

Next rules question...what's the defense here, against the BODY and STUN?  

Wouldn't it be STUN since the power being used is Blast?

[unclevlad]

8 minutes ago, sevrick said:

Wouldn't it be STUN since the power being used is Blast?

 

Blast does BODY damage.  It's versus normal defenses, not resistant, but it still does BODY damage, unless you specifically tack on Stun Only.  Oh, but that would eliminate knockback.  Oops.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I am sure that the rules specifically say that stun only attacks do no knockback, but as a GM I would allow a power that is stun only to do knockback if it were bought to do knockback.  After all, its the impact that does the knockback, not the lethal damage so its not inconceivable, its just not how the system normally works.  You'd just count the Body as if it were being dealt to see if knockback occurs, even though no Body damage is done.

 

Incidentally, different discussion, but this is why I think Stun Only should be a -¼ limitation: you're getting less for your points, don't do knockback, deliver no momentum (cannot push a button for example) and only in certain sorts of games is dealing no lethal damage a drawback.  The drawbacks seem to outweigh the questionable benefits.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[LoneWolf]

 The problem with adding a complication to undead is that would mean that all healing causes them to take KB.  Just because this characters healing is based on something similar to positive energy does not mean all healing has the same special effect.   That type of thing is what I was talking about when I said the Hero System is not D&D or Pathfinder.

 

The way I would build this is to use a compound power with the healing as one power.  For the KB effect use a 4d6 blast (standard effect), +1/2 double KB, +1/4 for 4m Radius, and put a -2 limitation on it only for KB vs undead, plus any other appropriate limitations for a spell.  See if the GM will allow you to use the standard effect on both the blast and KB roll.  If so this will mean each normal sized undead is knocked back 4M.  Since the KB only affects undead you don’t need selective on the area of effect.  No Damage should be worth at least a -1 limitation, and Only vs Undead is probably worth the same.  You could also add ½ or even 0 END without it costing too much.  The healing part on the other hand is probably going to be a lot more expensive.    

[unclevlad]

Good catch on the fact that Selective is NOT needed for the Blast, with the possible exception of having undead allies yourself.  OK, I've read all 4 of L. G. Estrella's Unconventional Heroes series...where the main characters are...necromancers.  Who use lots and lots and LOTS of zombie allies.   (They're insanely silly and funny.)

 

I don't think I'd give -1 for "does no damage."  Not given that it's such a small attack.  Very little would be applying anyway.  But...combine that with undead/demons only?  OK, I can see -1 1/2 net for it.  As noted above, from a points standpoint, it won't make much difference.  

 

The problem won't be real points, tho.  It'll be active points.  4d6 with +3/4 is still 35 active;  with Reduced END, it'd be 40 points.  Then the cost of the healing.  You're still at 85 active.

 

I don't think you can take standard effect for the KB roll, can you?  Lessee...6E1 133.  It says you can apply it to a power...but the knockback isn't a power.  I'd consider allowing Std Effect...4 BODY for the Blast...and "average" for the KB roll, that'd be 7.  That means 1m of KB against anything medium sized.  Normally, I wouldn't care for it, but it's what this power's designed to *do*.  And it's not game-breaking by any means.

 

Mmmm...note that this power doesn't work against Desolid undead.......unless their defensive hole is Divine Magic, which certainly would be well within fantasy tropes.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Making a good knockback-only or knockback-focused power is difficult to do for any affordable price.  Knockback is pretty powerful (it disrupts and moves a target away, requiring them to get up and get back to you, and can put them over cliffs, etc) so it does cost, but that hurts when you're playing a heroic setting where points are at a premium.  Just play any computer game that has knockback and knockdown effects to see how very powerful it can be, and why its restricted so much in these games.

 

Telekinesis only to throw costs quite a bit too (it takes 10 STR just to lift a person, especially in armor etc).  I hesitate to bring this up, but flight or leaping usable as an attack can work if you totally control it, but you GM probably will not be very pleased with your build.  You can stack all kinds of limitations on it like instant and only to throw, makes it pretty inexpensive.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Christopher R Taylor

[Doc Democracy]

Sometimes it looks like you guys are looking for ways to spoil cool concepts but I appreciate the dive into rule wrinkles.

 

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you can't take No Range on the Blast, IMO; its implied

 

11 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Its implied in the concept, but not the mechanics; you get the limitation on Blast.

 

I think, like CRT, if you are looking at bare mechanics, then nothing is implied.  Just because you are adding an area effect heal with an area effect Blast does not mean those areas are the same.  You might have a mortar that fires energy at an enemy while the backlash heals those close to the mortar. 🙂

 

As such, you limit the Blast to ensure its effects overlay the heal.

 

11 hours ago, unclevlad said:

That, to me, violates the metarule that an limitation that isn't limiting, isn't worth points.

 

Anything that limits the use of a power limits the power, IMO. If I am going to stop the Blast being used at range, it is limited.

 

Also, I would not rule that "does no damage" is not a limitation just because the attack is low dice, in the same way I would not increase the limitation because it was 20 dice. I most often invoke this rule when the limitation is not limiting either because another limitation effectively covers it or the context of the xampaign means it will never come up.

 

The corollary of this is rarely invoked in the forums that if an advantage is not advantageous it costs no points.  I often see advantages suggested that increase the costs of niche powers and might make it seem, to a newcomer, that the system is actively hostile to cool concepts.

 

I like the idea of this power, it would be cool in play and quite evocative.  There are obviously issues and wrinkles to iron out and, like many such discussions, it comes down to a finger in the air, testing on what a reasonable amount if points might be.  As a GM, I would be looking for reasons to allow it, working through, with the player, how they expect it to work in game.

 

As such, I would waive the need for a compound power.  I would allow the does KB on Healing versus undead. It would do the undead no damage, I would lean on the dice rolled on the healing roll to determine the knockback delivered. If anyone was concerned that the healing would heal the undead, I would apply a +0 limitation/advantage on the healing power "not versus undead". I think both the player and I would be on the same page as to what would happen in game, I would be content that the player was playing a reasonable amount of points and END for the additional applicability when there were undead involved.

 

Doc

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Doc Democracy

[sevrick]

6 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

As such, I would waive the need for a compound power.  I would allow the does KB on Healing versus undead. It would do the undead no damage, I would lean on the dice rolled on the healing roll to determine the knockback delivered. If anyone was concerned that the healing would heal the undead, I would apply a +0 limitation/advantage on the healing power "not versus undead". I think both the player and I would be on the same page as to what would happen in game, I would be content that the player was playing a reasonable amount of points and END for the additional applicability when there were undead involved.

 

Doc

 

That looks good. It will make it affordable to a player as it should, but not break things.

 

I was just looking to make this spell as a GM, and give it to a player as part of a reward in a Campaign. I think some times people can get into the weeds too much, so to speak. While the ideas have been great, I think It might be overwhelming to a new person to the system looking for something he can take to the bank. More of practical and clear options and less theoretical advice.

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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If anyone was concerned that the healing would heal the undead, I would apply a +0 limitation/advantage on the healing power "not versus undead". 

 

My problem with this is that if it has no effect on a target... then it has no effect on the target. No knockback, either.

[LoneWolf]

I am wondering if you really need 4d6 Healing.  On the average 4d6 Healing will heal 14 BODY.  That is a lot of damage.  If you reduce the power to 2d6 healing that is still healing 7 BODY.  Unless this spell is meant to bring people who are down back to full that should be enough.

 

If you only want to knock the undead down Change Environment may be a better way to go. Reducing the healing and using change environment cuts the cost down to a more reasonable level.

 

Here is what I came up with.  2d6 Heal BODY, +1/2  4M selective radius, -1/2 Requires Roll, -1/2 Gestures (both hands), -1/4 Incantations, -1/4 Not vs Undead.  Change Environment -4 DEX roll, +1/4 4m Radius, -1/2 Instant, -1 Only vs Undead, -1/2 Requires Roll, -1/2 Gestures (both hands), -1/4 Incantations, -1/2 Linked to Healing.  That puts the active cost to 45 and the real cost to 15.

 

How it would work would be the character cast the spell and all characters within 4M of the character except undead are healed for 2d6 BODY.  All undead within 4m of the character have to make a DEX roll at -4 or be knocked down.  The penalty to the roll is -4 and it cost 4 END.  Bringing up the healing to 4d6 will increase the active cost to 75 and the real cost to 27 and use 7 END.   
 

[Doc Democracy]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

My problem with this is that if it has no effect on a target... then it has no effect on the target. No knockback, either.

 

Then change the words. "Does not heal undead'.

[Gauntlet]

18 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Is this really going to be frequent?  I'll grant, if it's a known weakness, that helps...but what percentage of opponents can cast a healing spell?

 

Is it greatly impairing?  Yeah, if we try to translate it to active points on the healing spell, it's a lot...but...from the undead's perspective, how much damage are we really talking about, what's the likelihood of even knockdown?

 

Next rules question...what's the defense here, against the BODY and STUN?  

 

I bring these up to point out...building the complication is just plain MESSY.  These aren't hard questions per se, but I will always prefer a simpler approach where they don't need to arise.

First, I have never seen a party in any Fantasy game that didn't have a healer, so yes it definitely can be frequent. Of could, if you run a game where you do not have healers, then reduce it.

 

Second, knockdown on average is three hexes per dice after the first two dice. This is going with the 2d6 that is taken away from the knockback. So if the player spent 30 points or more for his base healing, it will probably due knockback on an average roll.

 

Third, as for Defense, it is a disadvantage, there is none.

 

Fourth, how is building a complication harder to do then a power. In truth, it is extremely easier.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Then change the words. "Does not heal undead'.

 

I am not sure that helps any.  If the healing doesn't take effect, then there's not a roll, and hence no knockback.  If you don't do anything to the target... you don't do anything to it.

[sevrick]

Not that I am try to start another tangent but, Would a combined power healing and telekinesis work instead of blast and limitation (Only to Shove)? It might be expensive though. It would have to have one hell of a limitation bonus, since telekinesis is so versatile.

It also maybe too much for what I am trying to do.

Edited December 21, 2023 by sevrick

[Doc Democracy]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Here is what I came up with.  2d6 Heal BODY, +1/2  4M selective radius, -1/2 Requires Roll, -1/2 Gestures (both hands), -1/4 Incantations, -1/4 Not vs Undead.  Change Environment -4 DEX roll, +1/4 4m Radius, -1/2 Instant, -1 Only vs Undead, -1/2 Requires Roll, -1/2 Gestures (both hands), -1/4 Incantations, -1/2 Linked to Healing.  That puts the active cost to 45 and the real cost to 15.

 

This is a good build.  I think you are right about the healing dice, my head was still in 5th edition Healing where this was a small bijou healing power.

 

However, I am still attracted to the single power.

2D6 Heal BODY, +1/2 8M radius area effect, +1/2 double KB, -1/2 Requires Roll, -1/2 Gestures (both hands), -1/4 Incantations, -0 does not heal undead.  40 active points, real cost 18.  I like the bigger area and the KB should be, on average, enough to push undead to the edge of the effect.

 

12 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I am not sure that helps any.  If the healing doesn't take effect, then there's not a roll, and hence no knockback.  If you don't do anything to the target... you don't do anything to it.

 

But you are doing something, you are pushing them back.  In my build above, the effect is the same for everyone in the area, roll the Heal dice once, it heals everyone but undead the same amount, and that same number determines the KB effect for those undead.

[sevrick]

16 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

However, I am still attracted to the single power.

2D6 Heal BODY, +1/2 8M radius area effect, +1/2 double KB, -1/2 Requires Roll, -1/2 Gestures (both hands), -1/4 Incantations, -0 does not heal undead.  40 active points, real cost 18.  I like the bigger area and the KB should be, on average, enough to push undead to the edge of the effect.

I like this but wouldn't the knockback be applied to those you are healing as well the undead, in what you have here. Maybe add "Doesn't Knockback Allies" modifier

Edited December 21, 2023 by sevrick

[Gauntlet]

I am also finding that if you are putting the extra to the healing power so that it damages Undead, then it cost probably at least double making it rather expensive to heal your fellow teammates and cost more END (Unless you wish to make it cost no END but that makes it cost even more). And something else to add, if your game requires characters to make magic rolls then it doubles the penalty if not more as that is based on the total cost of the spell.

[LoneWolf]

27 minutes ago, sevrick said:

Would a combined power healing and telekinesis work instead of blast and limitation (Only to Shove)? It might be expensive though. It would have to have one hell of a limitation bonus, since telekinesis is so versatile.

 

From a game mechanics point TK would work, but as suspect it will be expensive.  A lot of undead have decent STR and the undead would get opposed STR rolls to resist.   TK is also fairly expensive which is going to make this cost even more.

 

What would be helpful would be if you described what you see happening when the spell is cast without using any game terms.  Include how far the undead are moved and can they resist being moved.  There are several ways I can see this being built depending on the answer.  
 

[Doc Democracy]

1 minute ago, sevrick said:

I like this but wouldn't the knockback be applied to those you are healing as well the undead, in what you have here. Maybe add "Doesn't Knockback Allies" modifier

 

 

You are 100% correct, I forgot that bit.  Again, I think it is a +0 advantage, the +1/2 advantage for does KB gets a +0 advantage of "only versus undead". 

 

 

I was also missing the Does KB advantage.  So the active cost would actually be more than Lone Wolf's build but the area effect is significantly larger.

[sevrick]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

What would be helpful would be if you described what you see happening when the spell is cast without using any game terms.  Include how far the undead are moved and can they resist being moved.  There are several ways I can see this being built depending on the answer.  
 

I did in a previous post. Pretty much healing in a 4m radius from the caster and knocking undead/demons in the 4m radius out if possible, It doesn't have to be a for sure thing that they are flung out of the radius but knocked back. It doesn't have to do damage either. Kind of like a shockwave only the undead can feel and are effected by.

[Hugh Neilson]

17 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I am sure that the rules specifically say that stun only attacks do no knockback, but as a GM I would allow a power that is stun only to do knockback if it were bought to do knockback.  After all, its the impact that does the knockback, not the lethal damage so its not inconceivable, its just not how the system normally works.  You'd just count the Body as if it were being dealt to see if knockback occurs, even though no Body damage is done.

 

Incidentally, different discussion, but this is why I think Stun Only should be a -¼ limitation: you're getting less for your points, don't do knockback, deliver no momentum (cannot push a button for example) and only in certain sorts of games is dealing no lethal damage a drawback.  The drawbacks seem to outweigh the questionable benefits.

 

To my mind, STUN Only was set as a +1/4 advantage offset by -1/4 No Knockback because it will not cause permanent injury (nice in Supers) or damage loot (nice in Fantasy, but the decision was driven by Supers).

 

4 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

I am wondering if you really need 4d6 Healing.  On the average 4d6 Healing will heal 14 BODY.  That is a lot of damage.  If you reduce the power to 2d6 healing that is still healing 7 BODY.  Unless this spell is meant to bring people who are down back to full that should be enough.

 

I believe that in 5e it will heal 14 CP of BOD, so 7 BOD and in 6e it will heal 14 CP, halved because BOD is a defensive ability in 6e.

 

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Then change the words. "Does not heal undead'.

 

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I am not sure that helps any.  If the healing doesn't take effect, then there's not a roll, and hence no knockback.  If you don't do anything to the target... you don't do anything to it.

 

Given that this is +/-0,. I would allow it as "knocks back, but does not heal, Undead".  Recall that Doc is seeking to make the ability work, not to impose roadblocks.

[unclevlad]

Everyone always forgets that halving rule with Healing...myself included, quite often.  But, yes.  Healing is and Adjustment Power, and BODY is one of the "half effect rule" elements.

 

Interesting take that STUN Only is +1/4 and -1/4.  Hadn't thought about it, but yes, it makes sense.  STUN Only is a very nice advantage for supers trying to be Good Guys, and thus needing to be concerned with collateral damage.

[sevrick]

Ok I think I have a final version:

 

Healing Wave: Healing BODY 2d6, Doesn't Heal Undead and Demons (+0), Knockback doesn't effect non Undead/Demons (+0), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Does Knockback (+1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2) (40 Active Points); Requires A Divine Skill Roll (11- roll; -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4)

 

Real Cost: 18

End Use: 4

 

Thanks for you help I think this will work for me. If you have any last tips, I think this what I am going with.