Healing with Knockback

[sevrick]

So I have been trying to create a spell that does an AOE that heals allies while at the same time knocks back undead.

So far this is what I have got:

 

Healing 3d6

AOE 4m Radius (Selective), Does Knockback

Incantations, Gestures (Both hands), Requires Divine roll (-11), Knockback only works against undead and Demons

 

Is this correct? The heal doesn't have to do damage to the unded, just knock them back. If I selectively heal allies in the radius does that mean the undead are not effected by the heal so therefore are not knocked back?

[Sketchpad]

I would build it as a Compound Spell with the Heal effect and maybe a KB Only effect linked. Maybe something like:

 

Healing Rebuke (Incantations, Gestures (Both hands), Requires Divine roll (11-)

• Heal 3d6; AOE 4m Radius (Selective)

• 4d6 Blast; AOE 4m Radius (Selective), Double KB, Only vs. Undead or Unholy Creatures

[sevrick]

I actually started to do that untill I saw that the advantage "Does Knockback" can be applied to healing. Also I wanted it to be more about the Knockback and less about dealing damage. But I am not sure how healing doing knockback would work. Would I treat it as an attack against undead and use the body healed dice solely to subtract from the knockback die?

[LoneWolf]

Healing is not an attack power.  Does Knockback only works on attack powers.   If you don’t want the attack to do damage, put a limitation on the blast Knockback only.  

 

If it did work, you would have to heal the undead to knock them back. With the blast being a separate power, you don't have to knock the people you heal back.  

Edited December 20, 2023 by LoneWolf

[sevrick]

It would have to be killing attack. Since Blast does mostly STUN and you need a decent amount of BODY to knockback.

 

It seems making it a combine power would be the way to go. Unless there is a heal as damage Advantage to represent positive energy damage found in many fantasy RPGs.

[LoneWolf]

Don’t forget that you roll an extra dice to determine KB when using killing damage.  That is going to make killing damage less effective in doing KB.  If you look at @Sketchpads suggestion it includes double KB.   That means on the average the attack will do 2m of KB.  Depending on how far you want them knocked back you may need to increase the dice of the blast.  

 

If you want to just have the undead fall Change Environment might work.  It would mean the undead need to make a DEX roll to remain standing.   The book has an example of an ice sheet under change environment as an example.  This would just be a different special effect.

 

What it really comes down to is what is the special effect of the power and how do you want it to work.  There is no advantage that makes healing do damage, if you want that you have to buy it as a combined power. 

 

Hero System is not D&D or Pathfinder.      
 

[Gauntlet]

1 minute ago, LoneWolf said:

Hero System is not D&D or Pathfinder.  

 

Which is a Very Good Thing!!!

[unclevlad]

I wouldn't even suggest a combined power, as it'll be a massive waste of points, on a power that may be horrifically expensive regardless.  Healing starts with No Range...without Ranged, your 4m radius point of origin is the hex you're in.  

 

For the "knock down undead/demons"...yeah, just make it an Energy Blast, PD.  Double Knockback is your friend here...and perhaps even 4x Knockback for a +1.  (6E1 334...it's a GM's option.  For this?  I'd probably allow it.  If nothing else, the visual is really cool.)  AoE, selective, limited range, only vs. demons/undead...the value there is campaign-dependent.  -1 sounds reasonable.  

 

But note that if this is a compound power...the correct term, combined is for combined attacks...you pay the END cost for both parts of the compound power, every time.  That's SERIOUSLY wasteful, as each part will have a significant END cost.  Use a multipower.  Yeah, it can't do both at once, but how often will you want to?  HERO is tied to its point-cost nature.  Systems like D&D and Pathfinder ignore points completely, they use different limiting aspects.  So sometimes, things you can do in those, just don't necessarily translate.

 

 

[sevrick]

Definitely some good ideas. I will probubly try just make it a single power healing and give the undead in my campaigns a complication (damaged by healing from a Divine source, and heals from a Negitive source.) If I find that too OP then I can go with the Combind Power with blast.

 

As far as the comment Hero System isn't Dnd or Pathfinder. That isn't helpful. Hero System is system agnostic, so frankly, its whatever I want it to be. Sorry but I get frustrated at people who say things like that, when adopting things from other games, and try to hint at they shouldn't try to adopt things from other games. You can make anything work, it just how to go about it to be more balanced for what you are doing.

Edited December 20, 2023 by sevrick

[Hugh Neilson]

2 hours ago, sevrick said:

It would have to be killing attack. Since Blast does mostly STUN and you need a decent amount of BODY to knockback.

 

It seems making it a combine power would be the way to go. Unless there is a heal as damage Advantage to represent positive energy damage found in many fantasy RPGs.

 

1 hour ago, LoneWolf said:

Don’t forget that you roll an extra dice to determine KB when using killing damage.

 

The original construct was 53 AP. If we go with a 4m radius (+1/4), Selective (+1/4), it can be 7d6 normal or 2d6+1 KA.  That's an average of 7 BOD - 2d6 (average roll knocks them down but not back) or 8 BOD - 3d6 (they will only be knocked down about 25% of the time).  If we tack on Double Knockback, now we can have 5d6 normal or 1 1/2d6 KA. The normal attack will average 10 BOD - 2d6 so it will be rare that they are not at least knocked prone.  Killing will average 5.5 x 2 = 11 less 3d6, so only knocked down on average.

 

It would be a campaign groundrule to have healing damage the undead (and what would heal them?), in which case the GM would have to assess whether knockback is a possibility.  I note that even D&D/Pathfinder have waffled between "it heals the living and damages the undead" and "it heals the living or damages the undead, not both with one use".

 

[LoneWolf]

My comment about Hero System not being D&D or Pathfinder was more about the system is very different from those systems and does not make assumption like they do.  Those systems operate very differently than Hero System and often people used to them often make assumptions as to how things should be done.  Direct conversions are usually more trouble than they are worth and often end up disappointing the player.  Things that are consider low powered in other game are often incredibly expensive in Hero, and just as often the reverse is true.  It is usually best to just look at the special effect of the power and ignore all the game mechanics of the other system.  

[sevrick]

It's obvious that they are different  systems. The reason I asked about a healing Advantage is because this could have been mentioned in Fantasy Hero and I couldn't find it. They do that kind of thing. The other reason was that if there was such an option, you could apply KB.

 

One question that I had, was how does Healing work with the Advantage "Does Knockback" Because it can be applied to healing in HD. How would Knockback be calculated? Would it use 2d6 KB die and subtract the healing BODY done? I would assume that this is the case how else would you determine KB. As stands it sounds like the power would blast everyone in a 4m radius and knock them back ally and foe alike.

 

I think I see why a single heal power wouldn't work for my purposes.

Even if I had AOE 4m (Selective), that would mean whoever I wanted to heal would have to be a recipient of the knockback as well.

 

The main goal is for a healer to enter the center of a party being attacked by undead and let out a blast where he is that heals in a 4m radius his allies, while at the same time flings undead away.(damage not necessary). The only reason I contemplated adding damage is so I could use the knockback rules.

Edited December 20, 2023 by sevrick

[Doc Democracy]

My question is whether you see healing spells having this effect on all undead, or perhaps only healing spells granted by a particular god?

 

If so, you could probably buy a physical limitation for undead that they take knockback from healing spells cast by [healing god].  That way you don't need to be thinking about the attack and inflicting strange effects.

 

If not, I might think about a trigger on the EB, only happening when the healing is cast on undead.  That would save on the END expenditure.

 

10 minutes ago, sevrick said:

I think I see why a single heal power wouldn't work for my purposes.

Even if I had AOE 4m (Selective), that would mean whoever I wanted to heal would have to be a recipient of the knockback as well.

 

That is not necessarily true.  You can work out how many points you are spending on the knockback advantage.  Say the power was 25 points, and the does knockback was 12 points.  You can put the limitation of "only versus undead" on the knockback.   Now that is not hugely limiting, but I might give you +1/4 because it doesn't affect other enemies in the area.  So the cost of the knockback would be 12 divided by 1.25, or 10 points.

[Gauntlet]

Would it just be simpler to just add a disadvantage to undead stating that they take damage from standard healing spells/powers. Heck if you want then to take knockback from the healing then make that a disadvantage on them as well. This is something that should be handled by the GM, not the player.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Gauntlet

[Christopher R Taylor]

I would allow someone to buy "does knockback" on a heal, if they had a good reason but as Lonewulf points out, for that to take effect you'd have to heal the undead which is probably not what you mean to do.  If this was allowed, you'd roll the healing dice, and count the Body as if it was a normal attack and calculate knockback from that.

[unclevlad]

3 minutes ago, Gauntlet said:

Would it just be simpler to just add a disadvantage to undead stating that they take damage from standard healing spells/powers.

 

Maybe, but note that this won't help with knockback, which is the stated goal.  And...what kind of damage, how much?  

 

To me, the simplest approach is a Blast.  Doesn't need rules contortions, very easy to understand, achieves the goal naturally.  If you want it in a compound power?  Fine, just expensive and kinda draining.

 

32 minutes ago, sevrick said:

One question that I had, was how does Healing work with the Advantage "Does Knockback" Because it can be applied to healing in HD.

 

6E1, p. 22:  an attack action is an action requiring or invoking an attack roll.  The target MAY choose to avoid it, in which case Healing requires an attack roll.  Therefore, Healing is an attack action.

Does Knockback can be applied to ANY attack power.

Therefore, Does Knockback can be applied to Healing, as a general statement...thus, HD lists it as an available advantage.  HOW you determine the amount of KB is left open, per 6E1 333.

 

CRT has a point...the critters would get hit with the Healing effect in order to be knocked back.  I suppose you could put a Phys Lim...healing powers don't work.  Not clean, but...ok.  Then, as Doc points out, what you do is make the Does Knockback a Naked Advantage...which can now include separate limitations, so you don't knock down your buddies, just the undead.  The base Healing, AND the naked advantage for the undead knockdown?  They *can* be included in a compound power.  However, if this is a spell in a multipower...you can't do it.  A naked advantage is a special power, thus can't be included in a framework w/o permission.  (HD has a setting to allow special powers in frameworks, but it's all or nothing.)  

[Rich McGee]

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Healing starts with No Range...without Ranged, your 4m radius point of origin is the hex you're in.  

Is that even an issue for the OP?  An AoE healing spell that releases a burst of energy radiating from the healer that also pushes nearby undead away from them seems reasonably useful for a frontline "cleric" concept, and probably much more affordable than a "holy healing grenade" spell that has a range on it.  Less general purpose, obviously, but that's why it would cost less.

[sevrick]

This is what I came up with HD poke holes in it if you think it needs to be changed.

Healing Wave:

(Total: 95 Active Cost, 34 Real Cost) Healing BODY 3d6, Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Selective (+1/4) (45 Active Points); Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Requires A Divine Skill Roll (11- roll; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 20)

plus

Blast 5d6, Double Knockback (+1/2), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Selective (+1/4) (50 Active Points); Only vs. Undead and Demons (-1), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), No Range (-1/2), Linked (Healing; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 14)

 

Active Points: 95

Real Points: 34

Total END Cost: 9 (That seems high I might add the half END cost)

Edited December 21, 2023 by sevrick

[unclevlad]

2 minutes ago, Rich McGee said:

Is that even an issue for the OP?  An AoE healing spell that releases a burst of energy radiating from the healer that also pushes nearby undead away from them seems reasonably useful for a frontline "cleric" concept, and probably much more affordable than a "holy healing grenade" spell that has a range on it.  Less general purpose, obviously, but that's why it would cost less.

 

Fair.  It is somewhat cheaper, and definitely lower active points (could be quite important.)  I'd be worried, tho...4m radius isn't that big, so how often are you going to actually get enough people in the AoE?  Perhaps I'm being a pessimist.

 

Plus, the notion of a "front line" cleric is likely to be pretty hard to do in a reasonable number of points.  

 

1 minute ago, sevrick said:

This is what I came up with HD poke holes in it if you think it needs to be changed.

Healing Wave:

(Total: 95 Active Cost, 34 Real Cost) Healing BODY 3d6, Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Selective (+1/4) (45 Active Points); Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Requires A Divine Skill Roll (11- roll; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 20)

plus

Blast 5d6, Double Knockback (+1/2), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Selective (+1/4) (50 Active Points); Only vs. Undead and Demons (-1), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Requires A Divine Skill Roll (11- roll; -1/2), Linked (Healing; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 14)

 

Looks OK, but...

--9 END per use.  Might be OK, as it's plausible it won't be used that much.

--the skill roll...is this a power skill roll, or a straight activation roll?  A skill roll shouldn't report 11-, but an activation roll doesn't normally include "divine skill".  Either way, this is NOT!!! going to be a very reliable power, most likely.  The skill roll will be at -9, because of the total active points;  an 11- fails over 1/3 of the time.  And even if you don't make the roll...you still burn 9 END.  If it's a power skill, you have to buy the skill to 20- just to get to 11-.  This won't be cheap.

--In general, how are the other powers structured?  Again...if this is going into a multipower, for various 'divine' spells/powers...that multipower is going to be fairly pricey.  You may well be able to slap the gestures, incants, and skill roll as common mods onto the MP itself...that'll help a lot, but the base MP size is still gonna have to cover the total active point cost of the compound power.

[Gauntlet]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

Maybe, but note that this won't help with knockback, which is the stated goal.  And...what kind of damage, how much?

 

I had added that you can also state in the Undead's Complication that they also take knockback from the heal. The Complication would be as follows:

 

20	Physical Complication: Healing Spells Do Damage Rather than Heal (No Defense) and Do Knockback as Well (Frequently; Greatly Impairing)

 

And as for BODY wise for the damage/knockback, it would be the exact same amount as BODY Healed. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Gauntlet

[unclevlad]

Is this really going to be frequent?  I'll grant, if it's a known weakness, that helps...but what percentage of opponents can cast a healing spell?

 

Is it greatly impairing?  Yeah, if we try to translate it to active points on the healing spell, it's a lot...but...from the undead's perspective, how much damage are we really talking about, what's the likelihood of even knockdown?

 

Next rules question...what's the defense here, against the BODY and STUN?  

 

I bring these up to point out...building the complication is just plain MESSY.  These aren't hard questions per se, but I will always prefer a simpler approach where they don't need to arise.

[Rich McGee]

18 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

--the skill roll...is this a power skill roll, or a straight activation roll?  A skill roll shouldn't report 11-, but an activation roll doesn't normally include "divine skill".  Either way, this is NOT!!! going to be a very reliable power, most likely.  The skill roll will be at -9, because of the total active points;  an 11- fails over 1/3 of the time.  And even if you don't make the roll...you still burn 9 END.  If it's a power skill, you have to buy the skill to 20- just to get to 11-.  This won't be cheap.

You'd also have to rolls the skill roll separately for both aspects of the spell, right?  So further lowering the odds of it working exactly as intended, and pretty dramatically too.

22 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

I'd be worried, tho...4m radius isn't that big, so how often are you going to actually get enough people in the AoE?  Perhaps I'm being a pessimist.

That is also a valid concern, and increasing the radius would be expensive.  Really depends on what the OP had in mind, which I'm still unsure of.

[sevrick]

24 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

 

--the skill roll...is this a power skill roll, or a straight activation roll?  A skill roll shouldn't report 11-, but an activation roll doesn't normally include "divine skill".  Either way, this is NOT!!! going to be a very reliable power, most likely.  The skill roll will be at -9, because of the total active points;  an 11- fails over 1/3 of the time.  And even if you don't make the roll...you still burn 9 END.  If it's a power skill, you have to buy the skill to 20- just to get to 11-.  This won't be cheap.

--In general, how are the other powers structured?  Again...if this is going into a multipower, for various 'divine' spells/powers...that multipower is going to be fairly pricey.  You may well be able to slap the gestures, incants, and skill roll as common mods onto the MP itself...that'll help a lot, but the base MP size is still gonna have to cover the total active point cost of the compound power.

I copied straight from HD so if the 11- is wrong so is HD.

 

I was thinking of using the Multipower Method. It is pretty powerful if you think about it. Healing as well as damaging in one turn everyone around you. So this should be a pretty expensive spell. I might increase the Limitation of Only against Undead and Demons from -1 to -1 1/2, to more accurately represent the very situational use.

8 minutes ago, Rich McGee said:

You'd also have to rolls the skill roll separately for both aspects of the spell, right?  So further lowering the odds of it working exactly as intended, and pretty dramatically too.

That is also a valid concern, and increasing the radius would be expensive.  Really depends on what the OP had in mind, which I'm still unsure of.

You would have to roll twice that is true but someone with a good "Divine Skill" wouldn't be that concered. They would have to roll an attack roll on the undead though. But even if you failed the skill roll for healing I don't think that means you automatically fail the blast power check.

[sevrick]

As far as needing to rolls, yes, you would. However whoever uses this skill will probably have a decent Divine skill. Even if that fails, correct me if I am wrong, that doesn't mean the blast roll fails. The way I see it you get 2 opportunities for something to happen.

[unclevlad]

Nope, it's one roll, on the total.  6E1 390, under Determining the Active Point Penalty.  It's a compound power, so they can't be treated separately.  But to get to an 11- with a -9?  That's a 20- skill roll, which means 17 points if the roll's based on an 18 INT, PRE, or EGO.

 

Increasing the limitation for demons/undead only from -1 to -1 1/2 won't greatly change the active point cost.  

 

Other points:  the Healing is No Range, ergo the compound power is no range.  Therefore, you can't take No Range on the Blast, IMO;  it's implied.  Also, in a compound power, both powers always go off, so Linked is implicit too.

 

Lessee...the healing side doesn't change.

Blast 5d6, Double Knockback (+1/2), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Selective (+1/4) (50 Active Points); Only vs. Undead and Demons (-1), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4) is -1 3/4...18 points.

Blast 5d6, Double Knockback (+1/2), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Selective (+1/4) (50 Active Points); Only vs. Undead and Demons (-1 1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4) is -2 1/4...15 points.

 

So, no, upping the limited powers value isn't particularly helpful, and leaves the door open for the GM to use them more often, so you get value for it.  

 

Remember, if this is a multipower, the multipower reserve must be large enough to cover the active points of the largest power...regardless of its limitations.  You *can* get a break on that, with Common Modifiers on the MP...common limitations will apply to ALL slots, but by the same token, all the slots MUST have them.  You can't include a spell without verbal or somatic components.  This may not be an issue here, but it's something to remember.

 

And note that if the rest of your powers in the MP are...oh, shall we say 50 points.  Everything does get the the -1 1/4, for argument, for the gestures/incants and skill roll.  50 with -1 1/4 is 200/9 or 22 points for the MP.  95 points with -1 1/4 is 380/9 or 42 points.  If you want a 13-, say, for the 50 point powers, you have a 9- for the 95 point power.  On the flip side...sure, you can buy the power skill so you have, let's say, a 12- for the 95 point power...meaning 16- for the rest...but it's also still costing another 6 points.  So this compound power is forcing you to dedicate 26 points to it *alone* in the MP reserve and the skill roll.  

 

Mind, this COULD all be OK.  A 95 point MP reserve, with most of the powers in the 30-50 point range, could mean you can have multiple slots active most of the time......except for when you need to use this one.