Healing with Knockback

[Grailknight]

19 minutes ago, sevrick said:

Ok I think I have a final version:

 

Healing Wave: Healing BODY 2d6, Doesn't Heal Undead and Demons (+0), Knockback doesn't effect non Undead/Demons (+0), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Does Knockback (+1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2) (40 Active Points); Requires A Divine Skill Roll (11- roll; -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4)

 

Real Cost: 18

End Use: 4

 

Thanks for you help I think this will work for me. If you have any last tips, I think this what I am going with.

 

I like it but KB doesn't affect Non-Undead/Demons is definitely not a +0. I don't know if it's worth +1/2 but it's definitely a +1/4.

[sevrick]

Just now, Grailknight said:

 

I like it but KB doesn't affect Non-Undead/Demons is definitely not a +0. I don't know if it's worth +1/2 but it's definitely a +1/4.

It's +0 Because having the knockback only effect the undead is not a big advantage. I am paying a lot just to get the KB on the power. I don't need to pay again just to stop it from effecting everyone. Especially since I am dealing no damage to the people who get knocked back.

[Grailknight]

8 minutes ago, sevrick said:

It's +0 Because having the knockback only effect the undead is not a big advantage. I am paying a lot just to get the KB on the power. I don't need to pay again just to stop it from effecting everyone. Especially since I am dealing no damage to the people who get knocked back.

 

Do the Undead and Demons in your campaign have Breakfall? More importantly, do all the Players? Knockback doesn't just push you away. You are knocked prone and have to spend a half move to stand. Opponents may get to attack you while prone. Without a ranged attack, you may not be able to attack on your next action. It's a powerful mitigation that is underestimated because it can be negated by a 3-point skill. So yes, IMO, not doing Knockback to your allies is worth something when applied to an Area of Affect attack. 

 

Meanwhile, at +1/4, the cost changes from 40 to 45 active points, 18 to 20 real points and doesn't increase the END cost or Skill Roll difficulty. So, the change is 2 real points. Hardly crippling. Even at +1/2 (Which is what you'd pay for a Selective Attack that hits the hex and isn't rolled against each individual target.) it only costs 22 real points but would cost 1 more END and have another -1 to the skill roll.  You're the GM and you're giving this power to the player, does 4 points make that big a difference when you're giving it away?

[sevrick]

The another reason I am hesitant It somewhat a limitation too to only work on undead.

 

Depending on the situation it could be a limitation or and Advantage.

 

Say you in a fight with human bandits and you use it near your allies, that would be a limitation since KB doesn't effect enemies

Now replace human Bandits to undead and it is an advantage.

 

The reason I would maybe change it to a +1/4 is because it ensures you don't effect your allies 100% of the time, unless they happen to be playing an undead character of course.

Edited December 22, 2023 by sevrick

[Grailknight]

4 hours ago, sevrick said:

The another reason I am hesitant It somewhat a limitation too to only work on undead.

 

Depending on the situation it could be a limitation or and Advantage.

 

Say you in a fight with human bandits and you use it near your allies, that would be a limitation since KB doesn't effect enemies

Now replace human Bandits to undead and it is an advantage.

 

The reason I would maybe change it to a +1/4 is because it ensures you don't effect your allies 100% of the time, unless they happen to be playing an undead character of course.

 

I doubt that you want to Heal the bandits. And it's an Advantage because it doesn't affect your allies except for those rare exceptions you mention.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Grailknight

[sevrick]

True it might be worth looking into to add the selectively advantage to the AOE in that case.

Edited December 22, 2023 by sevrick

[Hugh Neilson]

14 hours ago, sevrick said:

Ok I think I have a final version:

 

Healing Wave: Healing BODY 2d6, Doesn't Heal Undead and Demons (+0), Knockback doesn't effect non Undead/Demons (+0), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Does Knockback (+1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2) (40 Active Points); Requires A Divine Skill Roll (11- roll; -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4)

 

Real Cost: 18

End Use: 4

 

Thanks for you help I think this will work for me. If you have any last tips, I think this what I am going with.

 

2d6 Healing will average 7, which is 3(.5) BOD.  The Knockback should likely be based on "count normal BOD".  The BOD healed is comparable to a 4d6 Blast, which would be reasonable (base of 4 DC).  Allowing it on the normal (average 7) roll is a much greater advantage.

 

As to the "+/- 0", I think they are reasonable in this case.  Yes, it prevents the Knockback affecting your teammates.  It also prevents it affecting the guards on the wall of the castle we want to storm, the bandits sniping from the trees and the charging bear.  ("But you'd have to heal them" is a big fat "so what?" at the start of combat.

[Grailknight]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

2d6 Healing will average 7, which is 3(.5) BOD.  The Knockback should likely be based on "count normal BOD".  The BOD healed is comparable to a 4d6 Blast, which would be reasonable (base of 4 DC).  Allowing it on the normal (average 7) roll is a much greater advantage.

 

As to the "+/- 0", I think they are reasonable in this case.  Yes, it prevents the Knockback affecting your teammates.  It also prevents it affecting the guards on the wall of the castle we want to storm, the bandits sniping from the trees and the charging bear.  ("But you'd have to heal them" is a big fat "so what?" at the start of combat.

 

I highly doubt that you' need to heal your friends at the start of a combat so whether it's useful then is moot. This is supposed to be a Healing spell with a bonus, not a combat mainstay and certainly not an attack you'd lead with. I'm not suggesting that it gets anything larger than +1/4. It's not offensive in most cases but when it applies it's definitely advantageous. I'd give the extra KB vs undead/demons a +0 if this were strictly a Blast.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Grailknight

[Doc Democracy]

1 hour ago, Grailknight said:

I highly doubt that you' need to heal your friends at the start of a combat so whether it's useful then is moot.

 

Why?  The point Hugh was making is that, by making the power only versus undead, you take away it's utility in probably more instances than you gain from it.  It becomes that healing wave that also impacts undead - that is consistent.

 

Hugh was saying that without restricting the knock back, you could use the power to knock back foes at the start of a combat where healing your enemies would not be detrimental back pushing them off a wall, out of a tree, or holding back an angry bear.  Would you tell a player they could not use it like that?  Restrict it's utility with no price discount?

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

27 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Why?  The point Hugh was making is that, by making the power only versus undead, you take away it's utility in probably more instances than you gain from it.  It becomes that healing wave that also impacts undead - that is consistent.

 

Hugh was saying that without restricting the knock back, you could use the power to knock back foes at the start of a combat where healing your enemies would not be detrimental back pushing them off a wall, out of a tree, or holding back an angry bear.  Would you tell a player they could not use it like that?  Restrict it's utility with no price discount?

 

Doc

Adding to Doc's elaboration, if I were building this, I would apply "only vs." to the Knockback related advantages only.  With that in mind, it should actually be a significant limitation, at least -1 as there is no question I will encounter at least as any non-Undead that I would like to knock back.

[Grailknight]

4 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Why?  The point Hugh was making is that, by making the power only versus undead, you take away it's utility in probably more instances than you gain from it.  It becomes that healing wave that also impacts undead - that is consistent.

 

Hugh was saying that without restricting the knock back, you could use the power to knock back foes at the start of a combat where healing your enemies would not be detrimental back pushing them off a wall, out of a tree, or holding back an angry bear.  Would you tell a player they could not use it like that?  Restrict it's utility with no price discount?

 

Doc

 

It's supposed to be Healing. All those things you mention are valid Disadvantages on a Blast. This Power's only utility over a Selective Heal or Blast is that it can be used to do both vs undead/demons. Yes, if you're not fighting undead/demons, the +0 on the KB is fair. But what happens when you do fight them in this fantasy campaign? Now we have a Selective AoE KB Blast combined with a Selective AoE Heal with two different conditions that are both advantageous to the caster: Healed allies and potential KB on enemies. We did this by fiddling with some modifiers so that we don't Heal the undead/demons or KB the allies. And I assigned it the smallest Advantage possible, +1/4.

 

8 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Adding to Doc's elaboration, if I were building this, I would apply "only vs." to the Knockback related advantages only.  With that in mind, it should actually be a significant limitation, at least -1 as there is no question I will encounter at least as any non-Undead that I would like to knock back.

 

I agree there, but then you also have to add something for the Does not Heal Undead/Demons. Otherwise, you've created a Selective AoE Heal with a Side Effect that is a pure benefit to you when it should be a separate Blast.

[Doc Democracy]

24 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

supposed to be Healing. All those things you mention are valid Disadvantages on a Blast. 

 

The idea is a wave of positive energy which heals everyone and knocks back undead.  HERO does not gave a positive energy power.  We were looking to the best solution.

 

I would allow it as a +0 advantage, you would ask for +1/4. We seem to agree on everything else...

 

I reckon it is, therefore, a GM dependent call and @sevrick can take that into consideration.

 

Doc

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think some of the problem is caused by trying to make the Heal and knockback do two different things without buying two different powers.  There is an advantages in the Advanced Player Guide I called "Accurate Selective" that you place on area effect to make it act like a computer game, where it hits only the targets you intend to without needing to roll for each one.  I recommend building a compound power with that on each of the sections.

[Doc Democracy]

@Christopher R Taylor, if this was going to be a core use of a power rather than a cool addition that makes the character stand out, I might be keener to bottom this out.

 

I think there is often a readiness to build complex rather than fuzzy.  I prefer to go with something close, that hits the right notes than to plumb the complexities of the system.

[Hugh Neilson]

The proposed build is

 

Healing Wave: Healing BODY 2d6, Doesn't Heal Undead and Demons (+0), Knockback doesn't effect non Undead/Demons (+0), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Does Knockback (+1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2) (40 Active Points); Requires A Divine Skill Roll (11- roll; -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4) = 18 real points.

 

It can heal. It cannot heal Undead or Demons.  What limitation would you generally apply to "can't heal Undead or Demons"?

 

OK, so Power #1 would be Healing BODY 2d6, Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), 25 AP

Power #2 could be a Hearing Flash but let's use a 4d6 Blast, Does Knockback (it's Fantasy; +1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2), AoE (4 m radius, +1/4), so 40 AP.

 

Both have Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4).  Let's make the Skill Roll -1/20 AP (so -1/4) to get a comparable penalty.

 

The Healing does not work on undead or demons (-0) and is Linked to the Blast (-1/2), so 10 real points.

The Blast does no STUN (-3/4), no BOD (-0, although it should really get some limitation) and works only against Demons and Undead (call that -1) and Linked to Healing (-1/4), so 10 real points.

 

20 points in total, averages 8 - 2d6 Knockback and has a lower penalty to the magic skill roll.  Costs a bit more END.  Maybe we don't put "No BOD" on it - it's not saving any points, so why not be able to damage a weak Undead as well?

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

What limitation would you generally apply to "can't heal Undead or Demons"?

 

None, unless its a campaign where you're all undead and demons.  If anything its an advantage to not positively affect your enemies with an area effect spell.

[Doc Democracy]

If I was the GM I would be indicating that undead cannot be healed by positive energy, or a god of that nature.  I would not need it in the spell. 

 

If I wanted to be helpful, I might have all undead affected by heal spells as if they were blast, and then the character might not even need the does knock back advantage.

 

This is almost at the level of SFX effects, the positive energy cannot heal a creature of the negative plane and causes them, instead, to be pushed away from the source.

 

It is a cool effect, not likely to be of much use most of the time (unless it is based in hell or Ravenloft - in which case I might re-evaluate utility), why are you so adamant the player needs to pay for it?

[Doc Democracy]

I think the biggest downer of the two power approach is the need for additional dice roll, when it should be entirely unnecessary.  I like the fact the a stronger heal is likely to throw undead back further.

[LoneWolf]

  The last few posts are a big reason to do it as a compound power.    This is starting to get more complicated and confusing that two powers.  

[unclevlad]

30 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

  The last few posts are a big reason to do it as a compound power.    This is starting to get more complicated and confusing that two powers.  

 

Which shows the *real* truth with regard to the question, is Hero getting too complicated.

[LoneWolf]

Doing it as two powers is fairly simple and easy to do.    It is two separate effects of the same power, so using two powers make sense.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Which shows the *real* truth with regard to the question, is Hero getting too complicated.

 

I mean, this is stuff you could try in 4th edition Hero with exactly the same discussion.  Is that a sign the game is more complicated?

[sevrick]

The question is a combind power or not combind. The reason I say not is because it is too expensive that way for what it does. KB is more of an addendum to the heal power. The KB you are already paying for, so what is the issue. Knockback only effects undead is on it's own a limitation.

If you had a some other attack instead of heal and it had that same modifier it would be an obvious limitation. But now suddenly because you attach it to heal, it becomes an advatage, because the KB you paid for and expect to get benefit from now doesn't slap your friends in the face?

 

To be sure there's a minimal difference in options here the thing to do is keep it +0 and if I think it is a problem through play testing I can up it to +1/4.

[Gauntlet]

Give this one a try:
 

[Doc Democracy]

The reason we ask whether HERO is too complicated is because we have more detail to argue about.  I would bet @Duke Bushido would be more than happy delivering this power in his 2ns Edition game. 

 

As players we have pushed the game designers to give us more and more "official" rule options.  Those options already existed but we think, if they are written in a rule book, we can use them without too much thought or discussion, just punch the numbers in. We then wanted more guidance on those options, it is no wonder the core rulebook got so big.

 

I don't think HERO is any more complicated, I worry we make it too complicated.  We begin to obsess over the detail and fret more about getting the numbers right than getting the feel right and delivering a decent game.

 

There is something about us that loves the detail and makes us question the minds of other folk that bounce off this beautifully detailed system that "can do anything" but in the process we insist on showing all the detail, ensuring that every micro-point is audited and processed.

 

I love the availability of the derail, I appreciate others who know it far better than me, pointing out when I stumble and permit things that could be exploited in unanticipated ways.

 

What I appreciate most however, is not a complex build but an elegant one, one that achieves a game effect that would awesome to see in play, that HERO can put together from its parts that would be a total black box everywhere else.

 

The detail for me is about helping adjudicate the effect in game, being able to explain to the player how this would work and how it might be changed to deliver different game outcomes.

 

It is not the system, it is us that gets too complicated.

 

Doc

Edited December 23, 2023 by Doc Democracy