Healing with Knockback

[LoneWolf]

If you are buying the KB as a blast in a combined power, you should get all the limitations you would if you bought it as a separate power.  

 

The problem comes when you want to add does BODY to healing. First of all, how do you count the BODY?  Do you count the BODY as if the healing were a blast, or since it is Heal body do you count the total of the amount rolled?  Does healing count as a normal attack and use 2d6 for KB, or is it considered killing damage and rolls 3d6?  This is the best reason to avoid adding does BODY to healing.  Second is the fact that you affect different targets with different effects.  To do this you should be using a partially limited power where you apply limitations to the advantages.   As the GM you can of course make these decisions but if the character is taken to another game the player is going to have to go through the whole process with the new GM.  If I were the GM and a player came to me with a power like this, I would not allow it.  

 

The cost of adding KB to the healing is really not that much.  Depending on the limitations put on the power it will probably add around 6-8 real points for a 4d6 double KB blast.  If this is a spell you might want to consider adding a focus (holy symbol) and extra time.  This is a clean easily understood way that will be acceptable in almost any game without question.      

 

The ability to knock down all characters in a 4m radius is actually very useful, especially when healing the party.   This is something the player should expect to pay for.  
 

[Doc Democracy]

12 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

The ability to knock down all characters in a 4m radius is actually very useful, especially when healing the party.   This is something the player should expect to pay for.  

 

I agree.  The question is how much.  In this case, it is only undead that get knocked back.  I reckon the utility, in any normal campaign will be limited.  If you are in a zombie apocalypse game, then the utility is much greater, a reason why such limitations are always going to cary from game to game.

 

In this case, I would be content for the value to derived from paying for does KB as an advantage to the main power.  As it is just a 2D6 Heal, it would probably rarely do too much KB as it would be subtracting a 2D6 roll for KB. If you wanted to be harsh, and you can see that I don't,  then it would be 2D6 halved (as Heal is a defensive power) subtracting 2D6 and would practically never manage any KB.  How much should the player be paying for that?

[LoneWolf]

In most Fantasy Hero games, I have played in undead usually show up at some point.  If you expand it out to demons, then it would be almost always.  They may not show up all the time, but they are usually present.  I would probably put the value of only vs Undead at about -1.  Knockback only would also be about a -1.  If undead are rare than simply increase the value of the limitation.  I have even seen a fair number of champions games where undead show up.   

 

 

The fact that healing does body works so poorly is another reason to not use this method.  The chances of doing KB on 2d6 are so small that to me it is just wasting time.  A player should pay for their abilities, but the abilities should have a reasonable chance of working.  This method does not and requires extensive GM intervention for it to be effective.  If I were to allow it I would either count the BODY as if it were a normal attack and subtract 2d6 or consider it to be killing damage and subtract 3d6. In either case 2d6 healing is not going to do anything.  All this is going to do is to slow down the game while the player rolls for something that is unlikely to happen. 

[Doc Democracy]

I guess that is where we differ.  I think it is a cool effect and, as GM, would be working to make it work.

 

The easiest, at the table way to make it happen, is to use the roll for the area effect healing and subtract 2D6 to see if the undead in the area get knocked back. 

 

This effect has added a relatively significant amount to the cost and AP of the power, whether or not undead are present.  There is a cost to the player right there.

 

Doc

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I don't think HERO is any more complicated, I worry we make it too complicated.  We begin to obsess over the detail and fret more about getting the numbers right than getting the feel right and delivering a decent game.

 

I think that is a better depiction, there are folks who like to crunch the numbers and work things out.

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

In most Fantasy Hero games, I have played in undead usually show up at some point.  If you expand it out to demons, then it would be almost always.  They may not show up all the time, but they are usually present.  I would probably put the value of only vs Undead at about -1.  Knockback only would also be about a -1.  If undead are rare than simply increase the value of the limitation.  I have even seen a fair number of champions games where undead show up.  

 

To me, a -1 Limitation says that this will be in play about half the time.  So about half of the opposition should be Undead or Demons if the limitation is -1.

 

3 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The fact that healing does body works so poorly is another reason to not use this method.  The chances of doing KB on 2d6 are so small that to me it is just wasting time.  A player should pay for their abilities, but the abilities should have a reasonable chance of working.  This method does not and requires extensive GM intervention for it to be effective.  If I were to allow it I would either count the BODY as if it were a normal attack and subtract 2d6 or consider it to be killing damage and subtract 3d6. In either case 2d6 healing is not going to do anything.  All this is going to do is to slow down the game while the player rolls for something that is unlikely to happen. 

 

The BOD for Knockback purposes is another issue.  That 2d6 Healing is 20 AP which would be an average 4 BOD roll if it were simply a 4d6 Blast.   An average of 7 (dice rolled) is excessive knockback for simply Does Knockback.  Slap on Double Knockback to get the roll on the dice seems reasonably close to me.

[Doc Democracy]

@sevrick I think you will note we are now past page 3.  Duke contests, this is the time by which all threads will have devolved to adherents to particular positions arguing about the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin.

 

If you are interested in the minutiae of the rules and associated philosophies of gaming, read on.  If not, you have heard enough to know there is no right answer and to make a decision that suits you, your players and your game.

 

Doc

@sevrick

Edited December 23, 2023 by Doc Democracy
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[Gauntlet]

I do see that this discussion has seem to have gotten some people up in arms.

[Doc Democracy]

1 minute ago, Gauntlet said:

I do see that this discussion has seem to have gotten some people up in arms.

 

Nah.  There is no aggro, just a lack of things to talk about, so we grip onto interesting topics and squeeze them to death.

 

If we were too considerate and accommodating, there would be even fewer things to read on the forums.

 

It is very rare there is real antagonism and discord.

 

Doc

[LoneWolf]

 When I build this power as two separate powers, I am usually finding it cost less points because I don’t need some of the advantages on the healing and can put more limitations on the blast.  Also, as two separate powers I can also use the unified power limitation on both of them.   

 

The end result works the same pretty much the same.  Technically it does require two separate rolls, but a GM can easily hand wave that and allow it to use the same roll.   From the players standpoint they roll 4d6 and heal their allies and then roll to knock back any undead in the area.   How is it any less cool for the player when built as two powers.   

 

To me powers should avoid bending the rules as much as possible.  I understand that sometimes the GM may need to allow some flexibility to the rules, but that should be a last resort.  The reason for this is once you start doing that too often the players start to expect it, and this can cause problems.  Also doing this makes it easier when you come back to a character years later and wonder how the hell this power work.  

 

I have to agree with Doc on not getting upset, I for one am enjoying the discussion. 
 

[unclevlad]

7 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

I think that is a better depiction, there are folks who like to crunch the numbers and work things out.

 

If not the numbers per se, then arguing about SFX and what fits/doesn't fit with any particular power, or in some cases twisting things...or saying they can't be twisted...to get something additional out of them.

 

Philosophically, I'm with LW here.  Give me the CLEAN definition that doesn't need contortion, whenever possible.

[Duke Bushido]

18 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

The reason we ask whether HERO is too complicated is because we have more detail to argue about.  I would bet @Duke Bushido would be more than happy delivering this power in his 2ns Edition game. 

 

 

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Doc, but I have been away from the boards a few days-  victim of the American medical 'system."

 

I ran out of blood pressure meds two weeks ago, heart meds shortly after that, and what my wife calls my "don't stab that guy" meds Saturday past.

 

Finally got enough funds to fill them all up yesterday, but it's not like flippong a switch.  It will probably take two weeks to get the fluids back out of my lungs, for example.

 

At any rate, I jave been avoiding pretty much _all_ human interaction as much as possible, so as not to strain either my heart or my self-restraint.

 

Give me a few days (I havent even read this thread yet), and if this thread is still active, I'll take a stab at it. 

 

 

[Doc Democracy]

4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Doc, but I have been away from the boards a few days-  victim of the American medical 'system."

 

I ran out of blood pressure meds two weeks ago, heart meds shortly after that, and what my wife calls my "don't stab that guy" meds Saturday past.

 

Finally got enough funds to fill them all up yesterday, but it's not like flippong a switch.  It will probably take two weeks to get the fluids back out of my lungs, for example.

 

At any rate, I jave been avoiding pretty much _all_ human interaction as much as possible, so as not to strain either my heart or my self-restraint.

 

Give me a few days (I havent even read this thread yet), and if this thread is still active, I'll take a stab at it. 

 

 

Look after yourself Duke.  As Bono said about the US health system, "the rich stay healthy, the sick stay poor". 😞

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

9 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

How is it any less cool for the player when built as two powers.   

 

I think my take is due to playing with people who are not "HERO players".  I am probably very sensitive about things looking complicated, and I keep builds focussed.

 

I can already hear my player asking why there is a blast in there and the unspoken frustration that HERO is too complicated, it "needs" this.

 

Personally, I can appreciate the double power, I can understand the desire there might be to stick closer to the rules as written.  I can even appreciate the fact that the double power keeps things below AP limits and makes magic rolls easier.

 

I still know my players would be happier with the advantages Heal.  Would make more sense to them.

 

Of course, in many cases I hide ALL the build data on the character sheets I hand out, with either of these would be showing the dice to roll, the modifier to any roll and potentially END cost.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

11 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

 When I build this power as two separate powers, I am usually finding it cost less points because I don’t need some of the advantages on the healing and can put more limitations on the blast.  Also, as two separate powers I can also use the unified power limitation on both of them.  

 

I forgot about Unified Power - good call!

 

11 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The end result works the same pretty much the same.

 

There's a bit of comfort building an unusual ability multiple ways and getting similar costs.  Whichever choice is made is at least in the ballpark.

 

11 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

Technically it does require two separate rolls, but a GM can easily hand wave that and allow it to use the same roll.   From the players standpoint they roll 4d6 and heal their allies and then roll to knock back any undead in the area.   How is it any less cool for the player when built as two powers.  

 

I have always allowed a form of "standard effect" that two combined/linked/connected powers use the same rolls. That speeds up gameplay nicely.

 

Actually, another easy simplifier for this power would be putting the Knockback element on Standard Effect.  If it's a Linked Blast (say 4d6, double knockback), Standard Effect is 8 on the Knockback Dice, so just subtract 2d6 from that 8 (or even apply a standard 7 or 8 and the Undead are always pushed back 2 meters or just knocked down).  The Knockback now becomes very easy to present as just an add-on to the Healing.

 

I think that "player's standpoint" element is key.  Some players don't care to mine the build intricacies - they don't need to see two powers to run the character. If they are happy with someone else digging through the build complexities, and the player and GM share a common view of how the construct works in gameplay, then only put the necessities on the character sheet.  The chain of advantages and limitations (including limitations on an advantage) will also look complex. In d20, we would just write "Healing Blast" and maybe a bit of how it works.  A Hero "for play" character sheet would go a long way to reducing perceived complexity at the gaming table.

 

[Rich McGee]

5 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

As Bono said about the US health system, "the rich stay healthy, the sick stay poor".

Is that the U2 guy, or Cher's former husband?  I'm old enough that Sonny still has dibs on that name unless specified otherwise.

 

Apt no matter who said it, though.

[Doc Democracy]

I was talking U2...

[LoneWolf]

@Doc Democracy  I can understand your view, but I think in some ways hiding the details from your players can be contributing to their perceived view.  By hiding the build you reinforce their view the system is too complicated for them to understand.   By doing everything for them you take away the opportunity for them to learn.  I don’t know your players so cannot know the situation, but it seems to me if they were able to build characters on their own they may see the system as more user friendly.

 

@Hugh Neilson I suggested using the standard effect on the blast and knock back in an earlier post. 

 

The other advantage is that by separating the healing from the knockback you can adjust either one with little impact on the other.  If you don’t need as much healing, you can reduce it without affecting the KB, if you want more KB, you can increase that by adding more dice to the blast.

[Doc Democracy]

Guarantee that if I did not hide it we would not be playing HERO.  The first few times half the group spent forever pouring over the sheet, taking ages.  There is no inherent desire to gain any mastery of the details, even while being content to play a game I offer.

 

My group rotates GMs and systems and we have been gaming together for about 25 years.  If the desire was there, it would have been evident by now

[Hugh Neilson]

26 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

The other advantage is that by separating the healing from the knockback you can adjust either one with little impact on the other.  If you don’t need as much healing, you can reduce it without affecting the KB, if you want more KB, you can increase that by adding more dice to the blast.

 

For the specific build I would Link the powers, but it does permit the build itself to focus more on knockback or more on healing. Higher AP (including two linked powers) comes with a higher skill roll penalty, but that is manageable by using -1/4 to reduce the roll by 1 per 20 AP rather than 10.

 

26 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

@Doc Democracy  I can understand your view, but I think in some ways hiding the details from your players can be contributing to their perceived view.  By hiding the build you reinforce their view the system is too complicated for them to understand.   By doing everything for them you take away the opportunity for them to learn.  I don’t know your players so cannot know the situation, but it seems to me if they were able to build characters on their own they may see the system as more user friendly.

 

2 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

Guarantee that if I did not hide it we would not be playing HERO.  The first few times half the group spent forever pouring over the sheet, taking ages.  There is no inherent desire to gain any mastery of the details, even while being content to play a game I offer.

 

In my view, Hero is not "a game".  It is a system used to design games. When we require the players to create their abilities using the tome of mechanics, they are being asked to be game designers, not just players or even GMs. It would be quite possible to build spells with the full mechanics but publish a game where those mechanics are largely hidden. We might, for example, see Healing Burst as a spell in such a game described as 2d6 BOD Healing, 4 meter radius centered on caster, does 2  meter knockback (away from the caster) to all undead or demons instead of healing them.  COST X Points; SKILL ROLL: -Y; END: Z.

 

We could even add that +1d6 Healing and +2 meters Knockback costs +A Points; further -B Skill Roll; further END C, and present the skill roll and END in "per xd6".

 

The players need never see the complex build behind the scenes.  They know that the base power will heal 1 BOD per 2 points rolled on their 2d6, and blast any Undead or Demons back 2 meters (unless they are mysteriously resistant - perhaps knockback resistance). That is what they need to play a spellcaster with this spell in-game.

 

This adjusts character design and play to be similar to other games where the design of the characters' abilities is not shared with the players or the GM. While surprising to many Hero fans, lots of players just want to play the game, and do not want to learn the detailed game design mechanics that create their characters' abilities.  It is not wrongbadfun to want to play a game, not design one.

[LoneWolf]

To me the big draw of the Hero System is that I can create the character I want.  I would have very little interest in playing a Fantasy Hero game where the GM writes up all the spells.  For me the character creation process is half the fun.  

[Doc Democracy]

8 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

To me the big draw of the Hero System is that I can create the character I want.  I would have very little interest in playing a Fantasy Hero game where the GM writes up all the spells.  For me the character creation process is half the fun.  

 

Yeah.  I get that, it is my draw to the game too.  However, you adapt to the folk you play with.

 

They do design their own characters, they just don't engage with the detail of the system.  They describe what they want, then I crunch some numbers, then talk through how things would work in-game, then adjust if necessary.

 

The only difference between you and them would be that I wouldn't need to crunch as many numbers, we would go straight to discussing how things would work in-game.

 

Doc

26 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

We might, for example, see Healing Burst as a spell in such a game described as 2d6 BOD Healing, 4 meter radius centered on caster, does 2  meter knockback (away from the caster) to all undead or demons instead of healing them.  COST X Points; SKILL ROLL: -Y; END: Z.

 

The big draw for me for this over your standard game would be that the spells would be underpinned by the system.  If the builds were available online, I could start there and tweak to my heart's content, while less geeky folk could simply choose from the standard menu.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Doc Democracy

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

The big draw for me for this over your standard game would be that the spells would be underpinned by the system.  If the builds were available online, I could start there and tweak to my heart's content, while less geeky folk could simply choose from the standard menu.

 

That's how I would envision a game "Powered by HERO" being structured.  Publish the game and put the builds online for those who want to tinker, discuss any nuances or handwaves, etc.  But present a game, first and foremost.

 

With a GM familiar with Hero, a player like Lonewolf can make modifications, within the constraints of the game (as set by the GM and players).

[sevrick]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

To me the big draw of the Hero System is that I can create the character I want.  I would have very little interest in playing a Fantasy Hero game where the GM writes up all the spells.  For me the character creation process is half the fun.  

I create the spells the available spells ahead of time yes, but that doesn't stop them from taking advantage of spell research, that let them make their own spells.

[sevrick]

One of my main goals in making spells is to get practice in creating balanced spells/powers. So that the ones I made were not broken. There is a lot of creative differences here. Where I stand is learning the system rules as written, then being able to bend when needed for the enjoyment of the game.

   When it comes down to it, the final result should be whether it is a balanced power or not, point wise and mechanics wise. Also is combind power rules as written or is single power? Most of the spell will probubly need to be play tested. But I am trying to establish a base line for creating spells/powers. After I have created spells/powers through this way, I will adjust them as needed, depending on the campaign. For example this spell would be way more useful in a Campaign that has undead and demons everywhere, and not so much in others.

 

   It might not be wise to take apart a car and rewire it untill you have a profound understanding on how it works 1st.

Edited December 24, 2023 by sevrick