Knock over a tree

[Tech]

How much Strength would it take to knock a rooted tree over? I don't mean a young tree; just your average tree you see outside your window or in a forest.

[Ninja-Bear]

Not sure but that tree should have Clinging! Or just KB Resistance. 

[LoneWolf]

Most trees will probably break instead of being uprooted and knocked over.   The root system of most trees usually goes fairly deep and spread out.   Unless the tree is planted in some sort of soft soil or is soaked through so it is mostly mud the trunk will break long before the tree fall.  Most of the time when a tree is knocked over is during a long storm or where the roots are fairly shallow. 

 

Young trees are easier to knock over because the root system has not had a chance to develop.  Look to see how much damage it would take to break the tree.     

[Asperion]

When attempting to uproot a tree, I usually figure that whatever the branch structure is above ground is what one will be fighting below ground. Since the ground itself will often be greatly compacted, this makes a powerful force that one needs to overcome. 

[Tech]

I know about tree, branch and root structures of trees, ground, root stability and so on. Besides, this is Champions with superheroes and supervillains. If we go with what should happen, we wouldn't have a superhero game... and the Sub-Mariner wouldn't be able to rip up a chunk of ice over 20 feet in diameter, superspeedsters would burn up from the friction of super speed, etc etc. We're talking superpowers.

 

The reason for specifically uprooting a tree is because heroes will be encountering an English myth that states "it can uproot trees". Therefore, this doesn't fall under the usual 'tree breaks from the power'. This myth doesn't follow the usual rules about trees so back to my original question... 😃

Edited January 8 by Tech

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

How much Strength would it take to knock a rooted tree over? I don't mean a young tree; just your average tree you see outside your window or in a forest.

 

I would probably approach this as the tree using STR to hold on to the ground, and the character trying to use STR to pull it up.  So you could just do a simple formula, like 5 STR per meter of height gripping strength with the roots, and its a simple STR vs STR contest.  That makes an apple tree of around 7 meters have 35 STR to hold on to the ground, and a sequoia of 92m have 460 STR.  Mind you the Hulk could probably rip up a redwood and beat you over the head with it in the comics, so there probably should be a cap of some sort to make it possible to emulate the comics.

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Tech said:

I know about tree, branch and root structures of trees, ground, root stability and so on. Besides, this is Champions with superheroes and supervillains. If we go with what should happen, we wouldn't have a superhero game... and the Sub-Mariner wouldn't be able to rip up a chunk of ice over 20 feet in diameter, superspeedsters would burn up from the friction of super speed, etc etc. We're talking superpowers.

 

The reason for specifically uprooting a tree is because heroes will be encountering an English myth that states "it can uproot trees". Therefore, this doesn't fall under the usual 'tree breaks from the power'. This myth doesn't follow the usual rules about trees so back to my original question... 😃

 

Well, we can...actually do this.  With some work.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d018/e3e81929583d82067a120adf8d0c134acefb.pdf

 

The key number...they gave 60 kN (kilonewtons) force.  The newton is the standard unit of force, it's 1 kg-m / sec^2.  To lift 1 ton, you're lifting against gravity, which is basically 10 m/s.  So..it's 10,000 newtons.

 

So a lifting STR of 6 tons can uproot the stump.  Call it 8 tons to rip out the entire tree.  40-45 STR for the trees discussed in the paper.  50, if you want some safety margin, and some SFX...that the mythical's STR grasps the entire tree, which is why it doesn't split or crush at the point of contact.  Something of the classic issue...fine, Superman can *lift* the large jet, but in this context?  The entire force required to lift it would be exerted by his hands, so the force exerted at the point of contact is almost beyond belief.  TV Tropes has fun with this one.

 

Another potentially useful page:

https://thetimberlandinvestor.com/how-much-does-a-tree-weigh/

 

The redwood from CRT's post...92m would be 3x the last column.  Diameter...15 feet, or 180 inches.  Use the 22" column, now it's 8x.  Volume increases as the square of width...so 64x.  OK...as an estimate?  200x the 95' by 22" amount of 4 tons, so....800 tons for the tree.  That's even before the root ball.  So, we're talking 80 STR to handle the mass, treating it as freestanding.  

[Tech]

unclevlad, you impress me. Gotta love science.

[unclevlad]

Google.  "What's the force needed to uproot a tree stump?" or something close to that.  Then a bit of math and science.  

[Rich McGee]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

Google.  "What's the force needed to uproot a tree stump?" or something close to that.  Then a bit of math and science.  

The general reliance on real-world units of measurement is one of the real selling points of GURPS, simply because it makes this sort of thing so much easier to take advantage of than in many game engines.  And GURPS was designed long before the internet had even approached to ocean of data it's become over the last few decades. 

[LoneWolf]

What exactly is uprooting trees and what is it doing with them?  Depending on what you want to do you might not even need to worry about the STR needed to uproot the tree.   If this is some mythical creature that can use trees as weapons you could use trees as a inaccessible focus for the attack power.

 

This is also the Hero System discussion forum.  Assuming the question is for a Champions game is not a given unless specified.  This could just as easily be a Fantasy Hero game and be about a giant instead of a superhero.     

[Tech]

To answer LoneWolf, it's a Champions game; yes, you are correct - I should have mentioned that. The myth creature lists that as an example of its strength, nothing else is mentioned but it's a mindless beast, no using the tree as a weapon.

[Ninja-Bear]

@Tech, if this is for Champions, I would think that a tree falling could be considered broken. So if you can “break” it then it’s fallen.

[Asperion]

Since this is a Champions game, you should say that if someone desires to rip that tree out of the ground then they can, no argument. Same with the brick breaking the indescribable material. In super-physics,if someone desires to do something that is the end of the argument, they should have the opportunity to try. 

[LoneWolf]

I have to agree with Ninja-Bear on this just figure out how much STR it would take to break a tree and use that.  If this is a beast using brute STR you don’t have to worry about trying to replant or otherwise keep the tree alive.  More than likely the tree is going to break near the roots when someone tries to pull it up.  There will be some root structure with the tree, but the majority will still be in the ground.  

[redsash]

Same answer as the previous thread about Blue Eye Samurai cutting through a tree trunk: a tree has 5 DEF, 8-11 BODY, so 13-16 Killing Damage will do the trick to break it. Bruce Wayne kicks a tree down in Batman:Year One in three blows (at an estimated 8d6, which scans).

 

Uprooting would be harder, yeah: Perhaps require a STR roll with penalty of -13 to -16 (somewhat agreeing with @unclevlad's calculation of 80 STR).

 

I seem to recall a comic book page where Spider-Man (43 STR canonically) uproots a tree. But he probably begged a bonus for Clinging from the GM...

 

To the pedantic thread: I live in a forest with hundreds of uprooted spruce and other conifers; even hardwoods will rip out sometimes in a hard wind. Some trees have taproots, some don't. Even planted fruit trees might not where an apple grown from seed might. Trees be complex!

[Christopher R Taylor]

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I seem to recall a comic book page where Spider-Man (43 STR canonically) uproots a tree. But he probably begged a bonus for Clinging from the GM...

 

This is the problem with trying to emulate the comics; The Hulk held up the Himalayas in Secret Wars.  Now, he's very strong, but it doesn't matter how mad he gets, he's not going to be holding up billions of tons of rock.  Every so often writers get a bit crazy in what they have characters do and you have to hold those outliers as mistakes or exceptions rather than how to build a game or a power.  Spidey could easily uproot a small tree but I don't know how big a tree it was (don't recall that issue).

[Tech]

17 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

This is the problem with trying to emulate the comics; The Hulk held up the Himalayas in Secret Wars.  Now, he's very strong, but it doesn't matter how mad he gets, he's not going to be holding up billions of tons of rock.  Every so often writers get a bit crazy in what they have characters do and you have to hold those outliers as mistakes or exceptions rather than how to build a game or a power.  Spidey could easily uproot a small tree but I don't know how big a tree it was (don't recall that issue).

 Spidey had his Wheaties for breakfast?  😃