How to Build: "Accidental Exile" Complication

[Sketchpad]

Hola Herodom! I'm working on an NPC who shrinks. As a byproduct of his shrinking, if he becomes too small, he has a chance of falling into a micro-universe for Xd6 weeks. I was thinking maybe a weird susceptibility? Or would this be a Limit on the power itself? 

[Grailknight]

I initially thought Side Effect but those are supposed to always go off. But I'd do it with a Linked XDM Power with an Activation Roll and a Limitation on the Shrinking that locks it on for that Xd6 weeks.

[dmjalund]

No Conscous Control XDM with burnout

[Doc Democracy]

@Grailknight has made a good suggestion but it feels off to me if the NPC has to pay points for something that complicates their life or disadvantages them.

 

I would be more inclined to make it a custom complication.  It might be a small value one, maybe five points, when using full shrinking, on an 8 or less he gets trapped in the Microverse for 1D6 weeks.

[LoneWolf]

I would use Accidental Change for this.  Depending on how often he shrinks down to the dangerous size it would be worth about 5-10 point on an 8 or less roll.  The change is that he goes to the other universe.

[unclevlad]

Extreme Physical Limitation.  Wrote up this one:

 

Phys. Lim.:  When fully shrunk, 8- to fall into the microverse for 1d6 weeks (Infrequently; Fully Impairing)

 

Or, alternately, Extreme Side Effect.  Extreme starts at -1.  If it always happened, it'd go to -2.  OK, so for something intermediate...happens on an 8- might be another -1/4, 11- another -1/2.  You're saying the NPC's power simply does this sometimes, and he's got no control...so I'm taking the additional -1 for "it always happens" and reducing it based on how often it happens.

 

 

[Sketchpad]

9 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

@Grailknight has made a good suggestion but it feels off to me if the NPC has to pay points for something that complicates their life or disadvantages them.

 

I would be more inclined to make it a custom complication.  It might be a small value one, maybe five points, when using full shrinking, on an 8 or less he gets trapped in the Microverse for 1D6 weeks.

 

9 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

I would use Accidental Change for this.  Depending on how often he shrinks down to the dangerous size it would be worth about 5-10 point on an 8 or less roll.  The change is that he goes to the other universe.

 

8 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Extreme Physical Limitation.  Wrote up this one:

 

Phys. Lim.:  When fully shrunk, 8- to fall into the microverse for 1d6 weeks (Infrequently; Fully Impairing)

 

Or, alternately, Extreme Side Effect.  Extreme starts at -1.  If it always happened, it'd go to -2.  OK, so for something intermediate...happens on an 8- might be another -1/4, 11- another -1/2.  You're saying the NPC's power simply does this sometimes, and he's got no control...so I'm taking the additional -1 for "it always happens" and reducing it based on how often it happens.

 

Some interesting ideas overall, folks. I agree with Doc about the paying points bit. All three of these solutions are pretty cool and have given me something to think about. Didn't even think about using Accidental Change. 

[LoneWolf]

If you are using the physical limitation you should apply the limitation requires a roll to reduce the value of the complication.  The complication should not be worth as much as one that always affects the character at the same frequency.  As it stands the complication is worth 20 points.  Shrinking is only 6 points so the character can easily purchase 1 extra level that is rarely used.  

 

Accidental Change already takes this into consideration. The value of the accidental change is 5 points for uncommon or 10 points for common.  That seems more appropriate for this.  
 

[RavenX99]

Accidental Change doesn't rip a character out of the world for a few weeks.  That feels like a pretty huge complication, and I don't feel the two axes of Physical Complication really reflect the severity because it doesn't really consider how _long_ the complication is affecting.  It's the same points for a PhysComp that knocks you out for 5 minutes.

1. you lose the fight
2. you're out of the "adventure"... your immediate plans are disrupted
3. you're just "gone" for 1-6 weeks... short-term plans are disrupted, you have to make excuses to everyone about where you were, you could lose your day job, etc.

Hm.  But these also feel like the same results of being knocked out for 5 minutes, leading to being captured and detained. 🤔

As a GM, I'd be really reluctant to put this kind of thing on an NPC, unless I planned to never actually roll for that 8- and just declared it happened as a plot device where I found it useful to the story.

But also, it's an NPC, so points aren't really important here, unless you're writing for publication.

 

[LoneWolf]

There is no reason Accidental Change cannot cause the character to change into a form that is so small it does not exist in our universe.  The only difference between this and shrinking down to 1 inch is size.  Making it fully impairing means the character is out of the game until the character changes back.  

 

The complication has an offsetting advantage that reduces the value of the complication.  While the complication takes the character out of the game for a while it also prevents him from being captured. If this was under the control of the character it would have to be bought instead of being a complication.   As long as the character occasionally has need to shrink down to this size it can still cause problems so is a valid complication.  
 

[unclevlad]

44 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

There is no reason Accidental Change cannot cause the character to change into a form that is so small it does not exist in our universe.  The only difference between this and shrinking down to 1 inch is size.  Making it fully impairing means the character is out of the game until the character changes back.  

 

The complication has an offsetting advantage that reduces the value of the complication.  While the complication takes the character out of the game for a while it also prevents him from being captured. If this was under the control of the character it would have to be bought instead of being a complication.   As long as the character occasionally has need to shrink down to this size it can still cause problems so is a valid complication.  
 

 

You're trying to make a points analysis, rather than a character impact analysis.

 

If this was a PC, getting taken out of the campaign for a month, would you not say this was *incredibly* extreme?

 

How is this any different from being captured, in any meaningful way???  The impact is that the person cannot interact with the world *at all* while this is the case.  So...microverse or a prison cell, who cares?  That's a meaningless distinction.

[Doc Democracy]

I would be ambivalent about it.  It would be an opportunity - bluebooking the Microverse, it would be a mini-series in a comic book, not a trauma event.

 

If me and the player had discussed it, and nothing like this should be done without that kind of discussion, then it is relatively minor.  I would have the player pull out a pre-prepared alternate PC for the duration.  I would pull out the pre-prepared scenario about finding MicroLad.

 

It would shake things up a bit.

 

With an NPC then it is even less so.

 

All in my incredibly humble opinion, of course.

 

Doc

[unclevlad]

3 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

If me and the player had discussed it, and nothing like this should be done without that kind of discussion, then it is relatively minor.  I would have the player pull out a pre-prepared alternate PC for the duration.  I would pull out the pre-prepared scenario about finding MicroLad.

 

Doc

 

You're talking about impacts to the player and to the campaign...not to the character.  

 

I'll also note that this is MicroLad hijacking the entire game, should you do it.  Not that it's wrong per se, but that's the impact, and that's something I grew very leery about a long time ago.  It's also part of the reason why I agree with RavenX99...especially with an NPC, this'd become just a plot device.  And yes, with an NPC, points are NOT a primary concern.

[Doc Democracy]

In my opinion points are a player thing.  The character is a construct, the points are about the players engagement with the game world, not the characters.  All those rules and points are, in game, invisible to the character.  None of us can see their character sheet, the PCs are not aware of theirs.

 

So I do absolutely see these things impacting the player.  The character is not impacted by being absent from gameplay for a month or a year, the player is.

 

If I did not want to run the MicroLad scenario, I wouldn't, but I would suspect my players might drive things that way, and it would behoove me to be prepared for that.

 

I don't agree it is the equivalent of being beaten in a fight, it renders the conflict pointless.  The PC is not captured, not imprisoned, not put at a disadvantage to his opponents, he is just not there.

 

Doc

[LoneWolf]

@Sketchpad stated in his original post this was for an NPC, so there is no player to talk to.  If it were a PC then some of these concerns might be valid. But this is how he wants the NPC to operate. Points for an NPC do not mean as much as the GM can just give him points that the character needs.  The only time it really matters is when the GM wants to build the villains in the game using similar guidelines as the PC.   Having NPC’s have a required number of complications is not a bad idea as it gives the player something to exploit.     

[Sketchpad]

15 hours ago, RavenX99 said:

But also, it's an NPC, so points aren't really important here, unless you're writing for publication.

 

Which may happen someday.

 

12 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

@Sketchpad stated in his original post this was for an NPC, so there is no player to talk to.  If it were a PC then some of these concerns might be valid. But this is how he wants the NPC to operate. Points for an NPC do not mean as much as the GM can just give him points that the character needs.  The only time it really matters is when the GM wants to build the villains in the game using similar guidelines as the PC.   Having NPC’s have a required number of complications is not a bad idea as it gives the player something to exploit.     

 

Yeah, I'm not really sure why there's so much emphasis on PCs for an NPC-based thread. I think I'm leaning toward the Accidental Change, as it would work relatively well and simple. Thanks for the suggestion. 

[Gauntlet]

I have a character in my FH game that who has a transformation attack that changes the target down to 1" in size and equivalent characteristics (STR & BODY being the two main ones). If the character fails her magic roll then it turns everyone around her into sub-atomic size (or would it be better to call it sub-dimensional in size), which is setup as AE Extra Dimensional Movement. I would say that if you are stating that something is turning someone so small they are sub-dimensional in size then Extra Dimensional Movement would be the way to go.

 

You could even make it into a sub-adventure where they have to figure out how to grow back so they can come back to the standard size reality. In my game the characters had to team up with the villains in order to figure out how to return their standard sized dimension.

Edited February 22 by Gauntlet

[Hugh Neilson]

18 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

You're trying to make a points analysis, rather than a character impact analysis.

 

If this was a PC, getting taken out of the campaign for a month, would you not say this was *incredibly* extreme?

 

How is this any different from being captured, in any meaningful way???  The impact is that the person cannot interact with the world *at all* while this is the case.  So...microverse or a prison cell, who cares?  That's a meaningless distinction.

 

I dislike viewing this as a "player can just stay home for the next several games as their character is gone" complication. 

 

18 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

In my opinion points are a player thing.  The character is a construct, the points are about the players engagement with the game world, not the characters.  All those rules and points are, in game, invisible to the character.  None of us can see their character sheet, the PCs are not aware of theirs.

 

So I do absolutely see these things impacting the player.  The character is not impacted by being absent from gameplay for a month or a year, the player is.

 

If I did not want to run the MicroLad scenario, I wouldn't, but I would suspect my players might drive things that way, and it would behoove me to be prepared for that.

 

I don't agree it is the equivalent of being beaten in a fight, it renders the conflict pointless.  The PC is not captured, not imprisoned, not put at a disadvantage to his opponents, he is just not there.

 

hmmm...What other complication could see a PC captured/mysteriously vanish, and drag in his teammates to investigate and assist?  Is this actually "Hunted: MicroDimension"?  That may be the closest comparable.

 

1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

I have a character in my FH game that who has a transformation attack that changes the target down to 1" in size and equivalent characteristics (STR & BODY being the two main ones). If the character fails her magic roll then it turns everyone around her into sub-atomic size (or would it be better to call it sub-dimensional in size), which is setup as AE Extra Dimensional Movement. I would say that if you are stating that something is turning someone so small they are sub-dimensional in size then Extra Dimensional Movement would be the way to go.

 

You could even make it into a sub-adventure where they have to figure out how to grow back so they can come back to the standard size reality. In my game the characters had to team up with the villains in order to figure out how to return their standard sized dimension.

 

Emphasis added.  Now the issue impacts the team (in all likelihood), rather than splitting one character off from the rest or removing one player from the game for a period of time.  In fiction, switching back and forth from the MicroVerse to the real world, or having a few issues without MicroMan and then a couple focused enytirely on MicroMan is not a big deal.  In game, it's a much bigger deal.

 

For an NPC, it's much less of an issue - the character just vanishes.  Maybe that's "move on to next scene".  Maybe it's a story hook.  But it's not a "split up the PCs" event.

[LoneWolf]

The problem with using extra dimensional movement is this is something that negatively affects the character that only occurs or rare occasions under specific circumstances.  Making the characters pay for something that hinders them makes no sense.  You could use the side effect limitation but that gets a lot more complicated.  To do it properly you need to put a limitation on a limitation.  While this is something that can be done it will be confusing.  Using a complication is a clean simple solution. 

 

The special effect is actually extra dimensional movement, but you can use a complication as the game mechanic. 

[Doc Democracy]

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

hmmm...What other complication could see a PC captured/mysteriously vanish, and drag in his teammates to investigate and assist?  Is this actually "Hunted: MicroDimension"?  That may be the closest comparable.

 

I like the idea of the micro-dimension hunting the character.  Not sure the mechanics work as well as other suggestions but it is an option I need to remember for future character builds.

[Gauntlet]

5 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

The problem with using extra dimensional movement is this is something that negatively affects the character that only occurs or rare occasions under specific circumstances.  Making the characters pay for something that hinders them makes no sense.  You could use the side effect limitation but that gets a lot more complicated.  To do it properly you need to put a limitation on a limitation.  While this is something that can be done it will be confusing.  Using a complication is a clean simple solution. 

 

The special effect is actually extra dimensional movement, but you can use a complication as the game mechanic. 

 

Having Extra Dimensional Movement as a side effect does not cost points, as it is a limitation it lowers point cost. It would only cost points if you could do it based on the character's own decision, not when it happens due to a limitation. I am also not sure how it would be confusing.

 

Sorry, I did miss one thing. You would need the spell to require a magic roll or otherwise you would always be going to another dimension.

Edited February 22 by Gauntlet

[LoneWolf]

For one there is no mention of a roll being required on the power.  So side effects would need to be always go off, but he only wants it to happen on an 8 or less.  He only wants it to be when the character shrinks too much.  That means the side effects are probably only on the last level of shrinking.  Since shrinking in 6E is so cheap, it is not likely to save any points. 

 

What you would need to do to get this working is to put the side effect on the last 6 points of the power, but then put an 8 or less activation roll on the side effect limitation.  While that is legal, writing it up is not.  I am not even sure it could be done in Hero Designer. The only way I can see to do that is to figure out the math outside Hero Designer and use a custom adder with a negative total.  Compare that to simply adding the complication accidental change to the character. Using the side effects is going to be more difficult for someone reading the character sheet to understand.  
 

[Gauntlet]

12 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

For one there is no mention of a roll being required on the power.  So side effects would need to be always go off, but he only wants it to happen on an 8 or less.  He only wants it to be when the character shrinks too much.  That means the side effects are probably only on the last level of shrinking.  Since shrinking in 6E is so cheap, it is not likely to save any points. 

 

What you would need to do to get this working is to put the side effect on the last 6 points of the power, but then put an 8 or less activation roll on the side effect limitation.  While that is legal, writing it up is not.  I am not even sure it could be done in Hero Designer. The only way I can see to do that is to figure out the math outside Hero Designer and use a custom adder with a negative total.  Compare that to simply adding the complication accidental change to the character. Using the side effects is going to be more difficult for someone reading the character sheet to understand.  
 

 

I will have to admit, I did forget to state that the Shrinking Spell did need to have an activation roll, or in my games case required a Magic Roll with a penalty based on the points for the spell.

[Grailknight]

If this is an NPC, there is no need to create the Power, it's a plot device under control on the GM at all times.

 

For a PC here are two options using XDM only:

 

Extra-Dimensional Movement (Single Dimension) (20 Active Points); 1 Charge which Recovers every 1 Month (-3), No Conscious Control (-2), Conditional Power Only Works if at Shrinking Maximum (-1/4). This one still requires GM control to determine if it activates. Or:

 

Extra-Dimensional Movement (Single Dimension) (20 Active Points); 1 Charge which Recovers every 1 Month (-3), Requires A Roll (8- roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1 3/4), Linked (Shrinking; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -3/4).

[LoneWolf]

I have to disagree about the need to create a power for an NPC.  For the most part an NPC should still be written up as completely as can be.  Having what a NPC can and cannot do clearly defined makes the game run smoother.  It is also important if the character is going to be a recurring advisory.  When the NPC’s power radically changes with every encounter it makes the players upset. It also makes things harder when a player tries to counter something when it is not written up.  For example, if a character is hit with an NND with an odd defense having that listed on the character sheet can avoid arguments.  

 

As was pointed out earlier in the thread this is not a power under the control of the character.  This is a rare unwanted side effect of using his shrinking.  It is not something the character should be paying for.