Those Detectors

[Asperion]

A staple in most supers games (especially those with mutants) will be something that will allow another person to identify the mutant regardless of their disguise. They will always work perfectly, identify the mutant no matter what problems are presented, how many people around, disguise used, or other issues.  Even more, when there are multiple mutants in the area, the detectors will be able to say the exact number and location of each. For some (eg Nightcrawler), they are obvious mutants,  but most will look the same as mainstream human. How have you dealt with the issue of these detectors? What principle do they work from? How have the mutants attempted to counter them? Anything else that you would like to comment about them would be appreciated. 

[LoneWolf]

You might want to look over this thread Invisibility to Detect

[Sketchpad]

In my campaign, mutant detectors use a form of genetic detection that can not only identify the mutant gene, but can identify likely powers due to genetic tags. If a mutant has been cataloged, it's likely that they can be identified by the tags detected. While generally illegal in the current game, there are still rogue factions that use them to find/hunt mutants for their own ends. No recognized law enforcement uses such devices, nor do they use nullifiers outside of dampeners for superhuman criminals. 

In response to mutant detectors, a gene scrambler was developed by some mutant scientists to counter the detector. These devices often look like a pin or ring, and emit a frequency that scrambles detectors. While distributed on the black market, scramblers have since become used in espionage agencies to hide their mutant agents in potentially hostile missions. 

[DShomshak]

I deal with questions of mutant detection technology by having it not exist. Even the existence of "mutant power genes" was debated in science until some aliens who are really good at genetics confirmed their existence (and would you mind if we enslaved you so we can exploit them? We promise you'll still get a higher standard of living, so rationally it's a good deal...) Mutant power genes still require slow, finicky lab tests to identify. Very often, saying someone has "mutant powers" really means, "We don't know why they have powers."

 

But then, I also don't do the whole "anti-mutant prejudice" thing in my campaign, either. Most people think being a mutant is the ultimate in dumb luck. (Not so much for the occasional defective mutants, such as the guy who gets super-strong muscles but not super-strong bones, or the pyrokinetic who isn't immune to fire. But there are now treatments for Obstructed Mutation Syndrome, from biotech captured from the aforementioned aliens.)

 

I don't feel obligated to copy Marvel in everything.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Asperion]

I have always disliked those "magic wand" detectors, like I described in the original post.  Instead,  I used a method similar to what Dean described where someone needs to obtain a DNA sample for a lab test. The suspect can refuse to give the sample,  there is no way to generally scan a room, along with more problems. The rationale used was that mutants possess a marker in their genes,  but to detect it one needed to obtain that sample and pull it out to find. No remote detection system can locate them. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Very often, saying someone has "mutant powers" really means, "We don't know why they have powers."

 

Yeah I like this.  There's no reason every hero would know why they are the way they are -- most probably ought not.  

 

"how come you can lift a car and fly, mister?"
"I dunno, maybe I'm a mutant or something?"

[DShomshak]

2 hours ago, Asperion said:

I have always disliked those "magic wand" detectors, like I described in the original post.  Instead,  I used a method similar to what Dean described where someone needs to obtain a DNA sample for a lab test. The suspect can refuse to give the sample,  there is no way to generally scan a room, along with more problems. The rationale used was that mutants possess a marker in their genes,  but to detect it one needed to obtain that sample and pull it out to find. No remote detection system can locate them. 

The "magic wand" mutant detector exists for story reasons to cover gaps in the "anti-mutant prejudice" theme. If you're going to have giant robots hunting mutants, they need some way of telling who's a mutant. It would, after all, be politically awkward if they attacked people known to have powers for socially acceptable reasons, or people who just look a little odd. And mutants probably won't politely sit still for a DNA test. So to have that scene where the Sentinel robots tear open the shopping mall to get at the X-Men while they're in civvies, you need to give the robots mutant detection.

 

Or y'know, one could postulate that a lot of people with powers who *aren't* mutants suffer prejudice because people think they are. Because prejudice is irrational and bigots don't demand precise definition and testing of the people they fear and hate. Marvel did at least one scene of such "false positive" bigotry back when I still read Marvel, but on the whole ordinary people seemed to have quite good "mutant detector sense" innately. Like gaydar, but accurate. <eyeroll>

 

As I have said before, repeatedly, perhaps even tiresomely, I am not a fan of that particular storyline. At least not as Marvel did it back in the '80s and '90s, and I haven't looked since.

 

Dean Shomshak

[LoneWolf]

When you have super science that can manipulate the molecular structure of an object at range there is no reason you cannot have something capable of doing a genetic analysis without having a sample.  I had a character with telekinesis that could alter things on an atomic level.  He was able to perceive and even alter molecules including the cells of a living being.   His molecular Analysis was 68 active points for a single enhanced sense.   

 

A lot of science fiction has medical scanners that can do this.  The Tricorders of Star Trek from Star Trek can easily do this.  The ships senses of the enterprise can do this from orbit.   
 

[Gauntlet]

4 hours ago, Asperion said:

I have always disliked those "magic wand" detectors, like I described in the original post.  Instead,  I used a method similar to what Dean described where someone needs to obtain a DNA sample for a lab test. The suspect can refuse to give the sample,  there is no way to generally scan a room, along with more problems. The rationale used was that mutants possess a marker in their genes,  but to detect it one needed to obtain that sample and pull it out to find. No remote detection system can locate them. 

 

This directly depends on the game. In my game, the Mutant Gene, is actually an ability of the person to somewhat alter reality in a specific way. That brick that can toss a car doesn't actually have the muscles to pick up and throw a car. His muscles are enhanced to a certain degree but not to something as crazy as that. What actually is happening is that his mutant gene is actually altering reality so that the car can be easily thrown by him. The same thing is happening to give him the ability to take high damaging hits without going down. Once again while his personal cellular defenses may be enhanced, his mutant gene is altering reality to reduce the amount of damage the attack is capable of doing to him, and him alone. Mutant detectors normally can only determine that the reality alternating energy is coming off him or her is there, not what it actually can do, but more complicated detectors are available that will give details of what manipulations the energy is causing but these are rarer, cost a lot more, etc. Think of them like something that can detect radiation. normal one will only state if it is there, but others can also detect many of the details of that radiation as well.

[Lord Liaden]

The rationale gets a little muddy when you have "mutates" as well as "mutants." If someone's DNA is reconfigured to give them powers, how do you justify distinguishing between those who inherited and were born with them, versus those who acquired them later? Your detectors would almost need to be able to distinguish things in mutates that aren't in mutants, like the Hulk's gamma rays, or Captain America's super-soldier serum.

 

IMO the detector convention is easiest to justify in a single-source-powers campaign, in which all super powers derive from one factor which can be remotely identified.

[Asperion]

The way I worked things was if one had innate powers that were not intrinsic to the creature (bird's flight,  fish's waterbreathing) then they will register as a mutant. It will not matter if the mutation occurs from birth or is induced by something later. In this case,  Cyke, Cap America,  Ben Grim will all register the same despite the difference in how they obtained their powers and operate. Since each of these characters had their DNA modified,  mutant detectors will not be able to tell the difference in how they obtained their power. An alien character will not register on the detectors,  so someone like Superman would be able blend in, have DNA samples taken,  and no one will be able to call them out on those grounds. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

When you have super science that can manipulate the molecular structure of an object at range there is no reason you cannot have something capable of doing a genetic analysis without having a sample.

 

Well and its not unreasonable to say that the mutation causes a signal of sorts, something that can be detected rather than a molecularly scan of the target.  If you want to have such a concept in your campaign.

[LoneWolf]

I think before you figure out how mutant detectors work you have to figure out what a mutant really is.  If being a mutant is basically have access to a specific type of energy that can be used based on the individuals DNA then all a mutant detector does is spot that energy.  This is does seem to be similar to the way magic often works.   

 

Mutates could be latent mutants but could also be something else.   The serum that made Capitan America was supposed to raise the target to the human maximum. Supposedly he was as strong as a human could get if they spent their whole life building up their strength.  His reflexes and agility where likewise raised.  No human could achieve his total state because there is simply not enough hours in the day.   Someone like that would not need to be a mutant.   
 

[Gauntlet]

Hmmm, I wonder what Captain America's stats would be. I doubt it would just be a series of 20s as I have frequently seen other completely normal human characters/villains that have characteristics greater than 20 (23 DEX being a common one). Another example may be someone like Tony Stark. With the extraordinary technology he comes up with, would his INT just be 20 or higher? So, if you are willing to allow a completely normal person go above the 20 Max, how far should they be able to go, and would it be the same for every characteristic or be dependent on which characteristic is being purchased above 20?

Edited March 26 by Gauntlet

[Lord Liaden]

The 20 cap is for purposes of Normal Characteristic Maxima, beyond which each Characteristic costs double its normal price. It was never intended to represent the maximum a human could achieve.

 

The 6E Champions genre book p. 72 presents a table of all Characteristic scores for six progressive named categories of Normal humans, and a seventh for when those Characteristics cross over into Superhuman, as applied in the official published Champions Universe. "Legendary" is the highest range a human can achieve without some extraordinary justification. The upper Legendary range is probably where to place the physical likes of Captain America, Conan, Tarzan, Doc Savage, as well as intellect like Mister Fantastic, charisma like Batman, and so on.

 

Below is a rough transcription of the table (to stay within Fair Use).

 

 

Char	Weak	Challenged	Average	Skilled	Competent	Legendary	Superhuman
STR	1-2	3-5	6-10	11-13	14-20	21-30	31+
DEX	1-2	3-5	6-10	11-13	14-20	21-30	31+
CON	1-2	3-5	6-10	11-13	14-20	21-30	31+
INT	1-2	3-5	6-10	11-13	14-20	21-50	51+
EGO	1-2	3-5	6-10	11-13	14-20	21-50	51+
PRE	1-2	3-5	6-10	11-13	14-20	21-50	51+
OCV/DCV	1-2	1-2	2-3	3-4	5-7	8-10	11+
OMCV/DMCV	1-2	1-2	2-3	3-4	5-7	8-10	11+
SPD	1	1-2	1-2	2-3	4-5	6-7	8+
PD, ED	0-1	1-2	3-4	5-6	7-10	11-15	16+
REC	1	1-2	2-4	5-6	7-10	11-13	14+
END	2-4	6-10	11-20	21-26	27-40	41-60	61+
BODY	1-2	3-5	6-10	11-13	14-20	21-30	31+
STUN   Running   Leaping   Swimming	3-4   1-2m   0m   0m	7-11   3-6m   1-2m   1-2m	12-20   7-12m   3-4m   3-4m	21-27   13-16m   5-6m   5-6m	28-40   17-20m   7-10m   7-10m	41-60   21-26m   11-22m   11-18m	61+ 27m+ 23m+ 19m+

 

 

 

Edited March 26 by Lord Liaden

[Gauntlet]

43 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

The 20 cap is for purposes of Normal Characteristic Maxima, beyond which each Characteristic costs double its normal price. It was never intended to represent the maximum a human could achieve.

 

I was just stating that for new players in Champions games as I have seen a few think that unless their character is a mutant or something they should never go above 20.

[LoneWolf]

Mutants are not the only source of power.  You also have magic, aliens, and science based characters.  The real world has performance enhancing drugs like steroids that can push a character over the 20-point line.

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, Gauntlet said:

 

I was just stating that for new players in Champions games as I have seen a few think that unless their character is a mutant or something they should never go above 20.

 

Of course. And I was just responding to your questions with one guideline for what Characteristics should go above 20, and by how much.

[Lord Liaden]

28 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

Mutants are not the only source of power.  You also have magic, aliens, and science based characters.  The real world has performance enhancing drugs like steroids that can push a character over the 20-point line.

 

I don't think you have to have steroids to cross that 20-point line. They only give someone the endurance and energy to push themselves to train harder. You can already get closer to your inborn potential if you have the motivation to train that hard. Hero players often question super characters like bricks with DEX above 20, "more than an Olympic gymnast." For one thing, I would say the way a gymnast trains could reasonably raise their own DEX higher than 20. OTOH gymnasts train for a narrow range of athletic Skills, and one could argue that their feats are the result of achieving high Skill rolls, rather than making themselves excessively agile.

 

Along the lines of power sources, the manga/anime character Saitama, known as "One-Punch Man," has an interesting origin. He was an ordinary guy who wanted to be a superhero, and began training himself obsessively. In so doing he somehow broke his "limiter," the boundary of what any living being can physically achieve. Thereafter Saitama's strength, speed, durability, and endurance began increasing exponentially, eventually reaching astronomical, terrifying, ludicrous levels. It's not so much that he stopped being human, as that being human stopped being a restriction to his potential power.

[LoneWolf]

You don’t need to take steroids to push yourself above the 20 point line, but it can help.   Allowing you to train harder and longer can help in going above the normal limits.  In the Harry Dresden novels the mantle of the winter knight allows Harry to ignore pain and often exhaustion.  He also exercises a lot to burn counter some of the urges of the mantle.  That is one of the things contributing to his increased strength. Performance enhancing drugs can do something similar, especially for someone without the drive and discipline to push themselves.  Comic book science could be even more effective at this than anything we currently have.        

[DShomshak]

On 3/25/2024 at 10:42 AM, LoneWolf said:

When you have super science that can manipulate the molecular structure of an object at range there is no reason you cannot have something capable of doing a genetic analysis without having a sample.  I had a character with telekinesis that could alter things on an atomic level.  He was able to perceive and even alter molecules including the cells of a living being.   His molecular Analysis was 68 active points for a single enhanced sense.   

 

A lot of science fiction has medical scanners that can do this.  The Tricorders of Star Trek from Star Trek can easily do this.  The ships senses of the enterprise can do this from orbit.   
 

A very good point -- and it also leads to your "Decide what mutants really are" point. And also one of my Star Trek rants that what tricorders (and even ship's sensors) can detect seems to vary arbitrarily based on needs of the current story. "There's bogonic interference in the atmosphere that's blocking out sensors, captain..."

 

We can accept a lot of rubber science, especially in comic books, but internal consistency helps.

 

I will actually give Marvel some credit that in at least one story, a Sentinel (maybe the Master Mold, maybe Nimrod) cranked up its Mutant Scanner and found that everyone has at least a few "mutant" cells. It was a genetic potential in everyone. The robot, of course, freaked. But the point is, at least one writer seemed to be trying to think these things through.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Gauntlet]

15 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

You don’t need to take steroids to push yourself above the 20 point line, but it can help.

 

It definitely can help; it is how I was able to get my personal Intelligence above a 20...

 

Wait, is Red Bull a Steroid???

 

Oh Wait, is my Intelligence above 20???

Edited March 27 by Gauntlet

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah, Steroids don't make you stronger, they make you heal faster so you can get back to training faster and push yourself further.  And they give you cancer, so there's always a tradeoff.

[Stanley Teriaca]

27 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Yeah, Steroids don't make you stronger, they make you heal faster so you can get back to training faster and push yourself further.  And they give you cancer, so there's always a tradeoff.

If VEMON would work like that...would Bain be dead by now?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Venom's side effects seem to be mental instability and addiction, but at least not cancer.