Combat Value

[steph]

Question for GMs. If I take as an example from vol 1 on page 35, in the heroic category (very powerful) it is written that the CV on average is 5-9. How do you handle that, if the players have CSL and martial arts. Despite the CSL, the material arts CV must still not exceed 9? How do you keep the fight balanced?

Thank you in advance

 

Steph

[dmjalund]

Why are you shouting?

[Sketchpad]

48 minutes ago, steph said:

Question for GMs. If I take as an example from vol 1 on page 35, in the heroic category (very powerful) it is written that the CV on average is 5-9. How do you handle that, if the players have CSL and martial arts. Despite the CSL, the material arts CV must still not exceed 9? How do you keep the fight balanced?

Thank you in advance

 

Steph

 

I always found averaging out the PCs CV and Defenses helps to keep a game balanced. If I know a group of six players have heroes with an average CV 6 and Defenses 15, I have a  rough idea to give an opponent a similar CV (or higher if I want to challenge the PCs), and an appropriate damage roll (like a 5d6 vs. Def 15, or higher for a challenging encounter). 

As far as keeping the CV in line with the examples, I find them more like guidelines. I might bump it a bit higher as the PCs gain more Experience, or allow for specific Levels. Things like Martial Arts tend to balance themselves at times. Gaining a +X OCV sometimes has a -Y DCV. So while it might easier to hit a foe, it also leaves the hero open to another attack. 

[steph]

56 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

Why are you shouting?

Why are you whispering ?

[dmjalund]

3 hours ago, steph said:

Why are you whispering ?

When was the last time you had your hearing checked?

[unclevlad]

A high OCV can also be fine when the attack damage is low, or at least low-ish.  There's also Counterstrike...+2 DCs and +2 OCV, but only after a Block.  You forego an attack to block, to try to get your opponent to open himself up.  If the Counterstrike does significant damage?  You earned it.

 

A character with relatively low SPD is also less of an issue.  His strikes need to be a little more effective.

[LoneWolf]

I have to agree with Sketchpad that they are only guidelines.  The title of the chart that you are referring to is actually Character Ability Guidelines table.  I use them to make sure that the characters are within the ranges they should be.  If you scroll down in the book there are a few more tables giving more guidelines.  The characteristic comparison table shows that characters with that range (5-9)  fall within the competent to legendary classifications.  A few pages latter there is a table called Characteristics Maxima Table, which gives the normal human maximums.  That table lists the normal human maximum for ocv/dcv as 8. 

 

As a GM I will use these to set campaign limits.  Those limits are usually a bit higher than the ranges presented to allow some variation and use of tactics.   Even with the limits it also depends on the nature of the character.  A character that relies on skill levels to increase the damage needs more flexibility than one that can reach the campaign DC l limit without needing anything else. If the character has to make a choice between damage and accuracy they are usually less of a problem.  I also look carefully at characters using 2 point skill levels to boost a single attack.  Those are more troublesome than a character that spent more points to achieve the same results.    

[Steve]

The Gestalt campaign sourcebook had a more detailed chart that included OCV and DCV as separate categories. As CV ranges rose, damage and defenses lessened.

[Christopher R Taylor]

One of the things you learn to do as a GM is watch out for stacking, which can get pretty outrageous.  Often, the players themselves aren't aware what they are piling up to, especially the type that build to concept or role play rather than the combat monster type.  A tool I find useful is the hard cap: no matter what you stack up to and how many skill levels you have, you cannot get higher than x OCV or y Damage Classes in damage or defenses, etc.  Its not recommended for every game, but for many campaigns it helps keep things from swinging too wildly.

[Gauntlet]

6 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

I also look carefully at characters using 2 point skill levels to boost a single attack.

 

I am pretty sure that it says somewhere that you need 3 point skill levels or above to make changes to damage or DCV which would mean that 1 and 2 point levels can only increase the OCV of an attack. 

 

Now while this might not be in the rules, I do have a tendency to only allow a maximum of 5 skill levels that are below the 5 point mark (my 545 rule). I have found that this keeps characters from trying to spend very little points to increase their OCV to overwhelming levels. Plus in the long run, it does make characters much more effective then just buying a lot of low point skill levels. 

 

Another house rule that I am thinking of using is to state that if the character is trying to do a call shot they cannot use 1 or 2 point levels. Would the rest of you think that is good.

[unclevlad]

In 5e and 6e, there are no 1 point offensive skill levels;  those are only penalty skill levels.  Granted, you still want to be careful with those, IMO, especially the 2 point PSLs which can cover a small group of attacks.  Potentially much cheaper than buying Half Range Mods or No Range Mods...which also have the downside of increasing the active point cost.

[LoneWolf]

You cannot use 2-point skill levels to increase damage, but I would still warry of allowing a character too many 2-point skill levels.  

 

Other than limiting the number of 2-point skill levels I would not put restriction on using them for called shots.   A few 2-point skill levels allow a character to be an expert in a particular weapon.  Having a specific weapon, you are an expert in is something that should be allowed.    

 

The section on penalty skill levels actually mentions targeting skill levels that offset the penalty for targeting and hit locations.  If you are going to disallow that in all honesty, you should remove all penalty skill levels.  I can see limiting the number of penalty skill levels to a reasonable number to keep things from getting out of hand.  Allowing someone to take 8 1-point skill levels with Rapier vs called shot head is something I can see as being unbalanced.     
 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Again, its worth considering schtick.  Letting a character be especially great at one specific thing that sets them apart from the group is fun for the game and usually fits genre: he's so good with a knife he can beat a quick draw gunfighter!  So having a character that's just super, super accurate is okay, as long as they aren't also heavily damaging.  Hawkeye never misses with his bow, okay.  But he also isn't dishing out Thor-level damage, either.

[bluesguy]

10 hours ago, Steve said:

The Gestalt campaign sourcebook had a more detailed chart that included OCV and DCV as separate categories. As CV ranges rose, damage and defenses lessened.

What is this Gestalt campaign sourcebook you speak of?

[Steve]

 

6 hours ago, bluesguy said:

What is this Gestalt campaign sourcebook you speak of?

Gestalt: The Hero Within

 

It is one of my favorite sourcebooks for Champions.

Edited March 30 by Steve