Combat Reflexes and Armor

[shinrin]

I'm running a FH game where I have a player who is a dwarf fighter who wears a full suit of Banded Mail (6 DEF) and who has 1 Level of Combat Luck which gives him an additional 3 DEF which is Hardened. Does this seem balanced? He has been hard to hurt in combat unless I roll really high on the damage dice and a good hit location like Stomach or Vitals.

 

I'm planning on making a House Rule of no more than 1 Level of Combat Luck as long as the total DEF in addition to Armor worn doesn't exceed 9 DEF. So a character who doesn't wear armor could have 3 Levels of Combat Luck. But what is to logically stop such a character from putting on armor after he buys 3 Levels of Combat Luck? To solve this I was thinking of requiring a Limitation on Combat Luck such as: Restricted By Armor, No More Than 9 DEF Total (-1/4)? Possibly reflecting that armor restricts the wearer's movement and reflexes?

[SCUBA Hero]

Either -1/4 or -0.

 

That kind of stacking often comes up in Fantasy games (armor, combat reflexes, magic defenses, et. al.).

[Killer Shrike]

My house rules for Combat Luck (along w/ a number of other things related to weapons and armor) can be found here:

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/armamentsNotes.shtml

 

The relevant portion to this conversation would be:

http://www.killershrike.com

COMBAT LUCK

With the advent of Combat Luck in HERO System 5th Edition, it is assumed that many characters will opt to take a level or more of Combat Luck. However, to keep defenses under control Characters are limited to their Character Points divided by 50 for unlimited Combat Luck, and their Character Points divided by 25 for Combat Luck with at least -1/2 in further Limitations upon it.

 

COMBAT LUCK CAPS

Unmodified Combat Luck: 1 Level per 50 Character Points

Modified Combat Luck: 1 Level per 25 Character Points .

 

A GM may allow some character concepts to exceed this cap, and may forbid others from doing so at their discretion. Combat Luck always requires GM permission to purchase, but for my campaigns Combat Luck up to the limits listed above are considered auto-approved.

 

OVERLAP VS STACKING

The allowed number of Combat Luck Levels overlap rather than stacking. Thus if a 150 point character wanted a mix of Combat Luck, he could have no more than 6 total Levels (his Modified limit), up to 3 of which could have less than -1/2 in Limitations (his Unmodified limit).

 

ROUNDING

The normal HERO System Meta-rule of rounding in the characters favor applies when dividing a chararacter's Point total by 50 or 25 to determine the number of Combat Luck Levels they may have. Thus, a 175 to 224 point character may have 4 Unmodified Levels of Combat Luck, and a 225 point character may have 5 Unmodified Levels of Combat Luck.

 

COMBAT LUCK AND AREA OF EFFECT ATTACKS

Combat Luck will not protect a character from an Area of Effect that effects the hex that the character is in and all the hexes around them.

 

ADJOINING OPEN HEX

If there is at least one open hex to any side of a character which is not in the Area of Effect, then that character may opt to use their Combat Luck vs the AoE Attack but must move into the adjacent open hex of their choice as a Non-Action which takes no time; this can be done even if the character is unable to move normally because they have already acted in that Segment or would not act in that Segment, but may not be done if the character is immobilized. However, the character is prone in the new hex and at 1/2 DCV, just as if they had performed a failed Dive For Cover manuever.

In this circumstance, the character subtracts their defenses from the AoE Attack, including applicable Combat Luck, and takes the remainder as normal.

[Galadorn]

Re: Combat Reflexes and Armor

 

Originally posted by shinrin

I'm running a FH game where I have a player who is a dwarf fighter who wears a full suit of Banded Mail (6 DEF) and who has 1 Level of Combat Luck which gives him an additional 3 DEF which is Hardened. Does this seem balanced? He has been hard to hurt in combat unless I roll really high on the damage dice and a good hit location like Stomach or Vitals.

 

Seems balanced, but not necessarily logical (see my comments below).

 

I'm planning on making a House Rule of no more than 1 Level of Combat Luck as long as the total DEF in addition to Armor worn doesn't exceed 9 DEF. So a character who doesn't wear armor could have 3 Levels of Combat Luck. But what is to logically stop such a character from putting on armor after he buys 3 Levels of Combat Luck? To solve this I was thinking of requiring a Limitation on Combat Luck such as: Restricted By Armor, No More Than 9 DEF Total (-1/4)? Possibly reflecting that armor restricts the wearer's movement and reflexes?

 

Game balance is the GM's responsibility. But, I would find the rationale of "suddenly you get unlucky because you're wearing heavy armor" line, a bit tedious. Of course this would depend heavily upon what rationale the character has for his combat luck - a good reflexes rationale would make loosing combat luck in heavy armor, appropriate. A divine intervention, or psychokenetic rationale would not allow taking away combat luck, in my book.

 

Of course, you could only allow combat luck, based on the fast reflexes line.

[Demonsong]

It may seem a little harsh, but I do not allow any armor to stack in my Fantasy Hero Game at all! In cases of double armor like Chain Def: 6 and then a mage armor spell of some kind say Def: 10, you only get one, player’s choice. (I have to have a player pick the lowest) It has worked out really well so far. Then again I have some great players who are there for the fun and not just to power game

[shinrin]

Re: Re: Combat Reflexes and Armor

 

Originally posted by Galadorn

 

Game balance is the GM's responsibility. But, I would find the rationale of "suddenly you get unlucky because you're wearing heavy armor" line, a bit tedious. Of course this would depend heavily upon what rationale the character has for his combat luck - a good reflexes rationale would make loosing combat luck in heavy armor, appropriate. A divine intervention, or psychokenetic rationale would not allow taking away combat luck, in my book.

 

You have a point there. The way the Talent is written in the FRed is that it has a -1/2 Limitation as Luck-based.

 

I guess I'll just make it a Ground Rule to limit it's purchase instead of doing it through game mechanics.

 

Thanks

[Rick]

Just as a side note I dig the Inkyo Avatar Shinrin.

[Hugh Neilson]

What about applying an automatic limitation on combat luck that you lose 1 rDEF for every 2 rDEF you have from other sources? After all, you don't need all that luck when you're encased in steel anyway, do you?

 

So if a character has 9/9 combat luck (awfully high, in my view), and wears 8 DEF Plate Mail, he loses 4 Combat Luck and ends up with 13 DEF. Your dwarf would have 6 DEF, since half the armor bonus equals the combat luck. If he wears lighter armor (say 4 DEF), he gets 1 point of combat luck remaining, for 5 DEF in total, so he still benefits from somewhat heavier armor.

 

Oh, he may whine a bit about the loss in vaue of his combat luck, but the first time he's attacked with no armor, he'll remember why he paid those CP's!

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Demonsong

It may seem a little harsh, but I do not allow any armor to stack in my Fantasy Hero Game at all! In cases of double armor like Chain Def: 6 and then a mage armor spell of some kind say Def: 10, you only get one, player’s choice. (I have to have a player pick the lowest) It has worked out really well so far. Then again I have some great players who are there for the fun and not just to power game

I don't like the "no stack" rule. It doesn't seem realistic. I look at it this way: when the starship Enterprises's shields go down, does the hull loose it's tinsel strength?

 

Why not just make the wizard shield spell with the disadvantage "doesn't work with armor." Then you force the player to make a choice, and can justify it through your magical system.

 

See why D&D had these limitations? O.K. they do something right, at least by your perspective.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

What about applying an automatic limitation on combat luck that you lose 1 rDEF for every 2 rDEF you have from other sources? After all, you don't need all that luck when you're encased in steel anyway, do you?

 

So if a character has 9/9 combat luck (awfully high, in my view), and wears 8 DEF Plate Mail, he loses 4 Combat Luck and ends up with 13 DEF. Your dwarf would have 6 DEF, since half the armor bonus equals the combat luck. If he wears lighter armor (say 4 DEF), he gets 1 point of combat luck remaining, for 5 DEF in total, so he still benefits from somewhat heavier armor.

 

Oh, he may whine a bit about the loss in vaue of his combat luck, but the first time he's attacked with no armor, he'll remember why he paid those CP's!

 

My general problem is that people start adding rules to their homegame, instead of adding limitations to magical powers or talents. I try not to make the Hero Rules do "loop-dee-loops."

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Combat Reflexes and Armor

 

Originally posted by shinrin

I was thinking of requiring a Limitation on Combat Luck such as: Restricted By Armor, No More Than 9 DEF Total (-1/4)? Possibly reflecting that armor restricts the wearer's movement and reflexes?

Originally posted by Galadorn

Why not just make the wizard shield spell with the disadvantage "doesn't work with armor." Then you force the player to make a choice, and can justify it through your magical system.

And we come full circle. Add the Limitation "No More Than 9 DEF Total" or "Does Not Stack With Armor" for -1/4 or -0. I'd be inclined to go with -0 and require it in a lower-powered Fantasy game. High-powered, don't require it (and possibly increase the Limitation value, based on how many opponents would have stacking forms of protection.

[shinrin]

Originally posted by Demonsong

It may seem a little harsh, but I do not allow any armor to stack in my Fantasy Hero Game at all! In cases of double armor like Chain Def: 6 and then a mage armor spell of some kind say Def: 10, you only get one, player’s choice. (I have to have a player pick the lowest) It has worked out really well so far. Then again I have some great players who are there for the fun and not just to power game

 

I seem to recall that Defenses weren't supposed to stack in previous editions of HERO System or maybe it was in a previous edition of Fantasy Hero. But I haven't been able to find such a rule anywhere. But I can see where endless stacking would lead to Near Invulnerable characters.

 

In the example of the dwarf fighter player that started this thread, he may be pretty tough when it comes to physical damage but against other types of attacks, not so much. He fell victim to a Continuous CON Drain. Not having any Power Defense really hurt him. He is at -5 CON and the Recovery Rate is at 5pts/Week. There are 2 more players joining the game and I think one of them is planning on playing a priest type character, so I expect he will have some healing spells that should heal up that CON drain a little.

 

I'm not too worried about Power Gaming from these players as they are all new to the HERO System. Even though the characters were 75 Base pts with +75pts in Disads, they both made characters around 138pts. Most experienced HERO players would have maxed out the points at 150.

[shinrin]

Originally posted by Rick

Just as a side note I dig the Inkyo Avatar Shinrin.

 

Thanks. My hat is off to the original artist whoever he (or she) may be.

[shinrin]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

So if a character has 9/9 combat luck (awfully high, in my view), and wears 8 DEF Plate Mail, he loses 4 Combat Luck and ends up with 13 DEF. Your dwarf would have 6 DEF, since half the armor bonus equals the combat luck. If he wears lighter armor (say 4 DEF), he gets 1 point of combat luck remaining, for 5 DEF in total, so he still benefits from somewhat heavier armor.

 

Oh, he may whine a bit about the loss in vaue of his combat luck, but the first time he's attacked with no armor, he'll remember why he paid those CP's!

 

It seems to me that your suggestion would penalize my player for the points he spent on Combat Luck. Using your system, he loses any advantage to Combat Luck because he is wearing 6 DEF armor. And that would be a waste of his points and not very fair to him. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate making a suggestion, but I don't think it would help in my situation.

 

I'm sure the first time he gets captured and has his armor taken away from him, he is going to appreciate the value of Combat Luck even more. In this type of situation, this Talent will shine brightly.

[Demonsong]

Iquote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Demonsong

It may seem a little harsh, but I do not allow any armor to stack in my Fantasy Hero Game at all! In cases of double armor like Chain Def: 6 and then a mage armor spell of some kind say Def: 10, you only get one, player’s choice. (I have to have a player pick the lowest) It has worked out really well so far. Then again I have some great players who are there for the fun and not just to power game

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

I don't like the "no stack" rule. It doesn't seem realistic. I look at it this way: when the starship Enterprises's shields go down, does the hull loose it's tinsel strength?

 

Why not just make the wizard shield spell with the disadvantage "doesn't work with armor." Then you force the player to make a choice, and can justify it through your magical system.

 

See why D&D had these limitations? O.K. they do something right, at least by your perspective.

 

 

 

Well your certainly entitled to you opinion. But I am talking about game balance. But on the other side of the coin I would love to play in a game in your world where every thing stacked. Let’s see here…..

 

I am a Dwarf Fighter/Mage, with 3 levels of combat luck, chain mail armor and a Def 10 magic force field and enough of a mana pool to run it for several minutes!!! Cool my PD and ED are now 25!!! I am Lord of the battle field!

 

Hummm. I think I will stick with my method.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by shinrin

It seems to me that your suggestion would penalize my player for the points he spent on Combat Luck. Using your system, he loses any advantage to Combat Luck because he is wearing 6 DEF armor. And that would be a waste of his points and not very fair to him. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate making a suggestion, but I don't think it would help in my situation.

 

I'm sure the first time he gets captured and has his armor taken away from him, he is going to appreciate the value of Combat Luck even more. In this type of situation, this Talent will shine brightly.

 

I would say rather he loses any benefit for his combat luck WHILE wearing his 6 DEF armor. Now, that requires looking at how often characters are unable to wear their armor in your campaign. If they spend most of their time out of civilized environs, where they wear their armor (or wear their armor in civilized locales and suffer no ill effects for it), then they don't get much of the benefits.

 

Do they (CAN they) sleep in their armor? An attack during the night will soon make that combat luck pay for itself.

 

Certainly, it restricts the use of the ability, which reduces the value of the ability. So does "total DEF cannot exceed 9". Some restriction is realistically needed to keep defenses at a level where a character can be injured. Depending on the extent to which you perceive this weakens the Combat Luck, I would assign a limitation value, but I would probably still make that a mandatory limitation, not an optional one.

[Killer Shrike]

I think its fair, in a setting where mundane Armor is free, to allow a character that is paying points for the privelege to have slightly higher defenses via Combat Luck than characters that just wear the non-point-costing off the rack Armor.

 

I also think its fair to allow a little bit of stacking to occur, again based on the idea that if the character paid for it they should benefit from it.

 

But, to prevent characters from turning into juggernaught like tanks with layered defenses, I also think that there needs to be a limit set.

 

Personally, I would rather set a limit on the number of levels that may be taken than set hard Limitations on Combat Luck itself.

 

Now, if an individual player is willing to take Limitations on their character's Combat Luck of at least a -1/2 then I'm willing to allow them to have more of it than if they do not. Act 14-, Only While In Good Standing With Religion, RSR: DEX Roll, Only While Not Wearing Armor, even IAF: Holy Symbol or something along those lines.

[Markdoc]

I too use the "no stack rule", but with caveat, namely that the "real" limitation includes no stacking (as in real weapon, real armour etc)

 

I have never had any player whine about this for more than 30 seconds, because:

 

1) real equipment is free. If you don't want to use it, fine, but you lose no points thereby. It makes just as much sense to whine that you are losing points because Brok the mighty fighter gets to use a 2d6RKA with his mighty STR, while Mouse the puny thief only gets to use a 1d6 shortsword.

 

2) this is how the rules work. You can't buy 1 d6 healing and 1d6 healing and get 2d6 healing. A 1d6 HKA and a 1 d6 HKA do not a 2 d6 HKAs make. Likewise 3 pD armour and 3 pD armour is 2 times 3 pD armour. not 6 pD. After all, would you let a player wear 6 suits of plate mail and have 48 pD? The plate mail is only a special effect, after all....

 

So the corrollary is that only defences (or attacks, for that matter) that a player buys stack - and he cant stack the same kind of defence. If you want 6 pD armour buy it, don't try to buy two lots of 3 pD. If a mage buys combat luck, he can stack it with his forcefield (different power) and magical toughness. After all, he paid for all that. He can't stack any of that with the free real armour he gets, however and he can't stack it with armour from another source.

 

Speaking from experience, allowing defences to stack with free armour gets very rapidly out of hand. Likewise, I do not allow attacks to stack, which is why I hate the horrible kludge of deadly blow and ban it outright in all my fantasy games.

 

And from the physics/realism point of view, doubling the thickness of armour (or any material for that matter) in no way doubles the amount of enegry needed to make a hole or deform it. Likewise in the real world, wearing plate over chain was not significantly more effective than plate alone, which is one reason (weight/comfort being the other) why chain in composite suits rapidly migrated to the places plate could not cover and then disappeared completely when plate evolved.

 

cheers, Mark

[Legendsmiths]

The problem is the geometric nature of the game. If each DEF is essetially a doubling of the stopping power, much like each DC is a doubling of the power (ala STr), then you cannot add the numbers since, fundamentally, they are exponential values.

 

Using the Hero rounding rule, stacking 2 defenses together should at best up the highest one up by 1, much like multiple characters exerting STR.

 

If 4 STR 10 (100 kg lift) characters try to push something, they have a 20 STR (4x100kg = 400), not 40 (6400kg).

 

If you apply this, then with 6 DEF armor plus combat luck you get 7 DEF. He loses his armor, he is DEF 3, he is suprised he is DEF 6. Thus, combat luck still has value, but so does wearing armor. I do apply a -1/4 to combat reflexes (basically 5 pts/level), and I agree with Shrike on the total point limits. This has worked out very well for my game and, at least to me and my players, it makes sense. Just keep thinking about the STR exertion example above and it will help.

 

In a heroic game I would make FF immune to the stacking rules as long as it is manage responsibly.

[UltraRob]

One thought I had about combat luck is that it's supposed to represent the hero's ability to avoid or at least minimize injury, but not negate it completely. So therefore I think if I were finding players overusing it (in my current campaign isn't not really an issue because they haven't pushed it...) then I would make them take the disad "Minimum 1 Body Must Pass through" (-1/2) on it. The idea being their "luck" has made the damage non-fatal, but they still very much took the hit.

 

The end result of this would be that characters would be able to take a lot of hits, even when naked, but they are still going to get banged up.

 

If I were applying this stacked on armour (as per the rules..) I would say that combat luck obviously applies last, so if BODY gets through to the combat luck, they will still be in a position to take at least 1 point of it. A character with 9rPD from Combat Luck and 6pts of Chainmail may have 15rPD in total, but if he takes a 7 BODY Axe Hit, he's still takeing that 1 point of Body. However, if he takes a 12 BODY Axe hit..he's still only taking 1 Body! (Which seems quite heroic to me!)

 

Not that I'd ever let a PC have more than 3pts of Combat Luck anyways...

 

Rob

[Galadorn]

First, if a GM wanted to make a "no stack" rule, then he should put it out there in the beginning. I don't think any surprises should be left for players to discover as far as game rules go - except maybe mystery damage.

 

Secondly, I'm not getting into a calculus metric when it comes to designing Hero Game rules, I find this boring. I opt for very few optional rules, as far as my Fantasy Hero game goes.

 

Thirdly, I allow stacking, definately. But I am thinking about the "doesn't add with natural armor" limitation when it comes to magic armor spells. I don't want an Iron Man PC Wizard in powered armor, walking about, either.

 

Fourthly, I think many of these rules are particular to a campaign. I run a 50+50 campaign, and with the limited point total on characters, I add a few new optional rules.

 

For my part of the fun of the game IS character and power design. I actually award experience points for a creative or very creative use of the VPP - both powers design wise and for cultural appropriateness of the power created.

[Rick]

Since combat luck is based on being able to move about freely: I can see a GM limiting its use when in a situation that a character has limited movement. In armor a character has restricted movement, so it follows that the characters Combat luck wouldn't work. Now a wizard using some sort of force field is a little trickier.

[SleepyDrug]

Since Combat Luck is luck oriented dodging some ideas to balance it....

 

1) A really solid hit (by 3 or more; maybe 5) ignores it

 

2) Heavy armor makes it less likely to block a hit

 

3) It only applies to "lucky dodges" against back attacks or multiple opponenets.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Rick

Since combat luck is based on being able to move about freely: I can see a GM limiting its use when in a situation that a character has limited movement. In armor a character has restricted movement, so it follows that the characters Combat luck wouldn't work. Now a wizard using some sort of force field is a little trickier.

 

I agree. As I stated before, combat luck that is psychokinetic or divine interventionally special effected; or has other magical, divine or psionic special effects, is hard to justify limiting or hampering.

[Rick]

That is true, but having just read the talent, it is described as the ability to dodge attacks. People can use however they see fit but it was designed for heroic campaigns, for characters sans armor. Divinely granted protection or psyco kinetic protection should probably be a force field.