"Realistic" fantasy

[Southern Cross]

Because that means that Elves are Fantasy Vulcans & Drow are Fantasy Romulans!

[PhilFleischmann]

Originally posted by Qamar

Not to mention a great opportunity to laugh at your players when they hit that seriously injured dragon with one last fireball...

I'm not so sure about this. Shouldn't dragons, i.e. their skin and flesh, be highly resistant to fire? Otherwise a newly hatched dragon who sneezes would detonate its parents, thereby incinerating the entire lair.

 

Maybe that's why dragons are extinct in the real world.

[Markdoc]

>>> Actually, that's the theory that has been overthrown. genetic analysis has shown that homo sapiense neanderthalensis and homo sapiens sapiens could not successfully interbreed (though I am sceptical that the state of art can actually determine this from pure genetic analysis),<<<

 

You are right to be sceptical. We don't know that they couldn't interbreed - merely that they didn't. On balance, the evidence would suggest that they could interbreed - the species are very closely related: but it is not clear whether the offspring would be fertile. OTOH, whatever the reason, we can be clear that no significant interbreeding took place - no neanderthal polymorphisms have been found in the modern human genome.

 

 

>>>but the evidence is also clear that the two groups existed side by side without genocidal conflict for millennia until the neanderthals went extinct (for whatever reason).<<<

 

Again, we can't be sure about this - evidence from the middle east indicates cohabitation for a very long time (perhaps as long as 50,000 years) which suggests peaceful coexistence. But in Europe and East Asia, primitive humans disappear from the record very rapidly as anatomically modern humans moved in. That suggests a less than peaceful meeting. We simply don't know enough at this point about the societies (as opposed to physiology) to be too sure about what happened.

 

cheers, Mark

[Galadorn]

Re: "Realistic" fantasy

 

Originally posted by tkdguy

Of course, this would still be a medieval society. Superstition and intolerance toward outsiders and/or differing views would prevail. Religion may have a strong role in the campaign, or it may be toned down. Wars are still fought with sword and lance. Feudalism is still the predominant system in society.

 

Any suggestions and critiques would be most welcome.

 

My idea of "realistic fantasy," is fantasy that is the same as Tolkeinistic fantasy, and is not Elfquest, Faerie. "Wee People Tales" or other similiar stories. I find these extremely boring.

 

The Realism that I prefer, means that elves are human-like peoples, placed into a human-like society, and interacting with humans. Some elves may be isolationist, though, like the elves of Lothorien.

 

The Realism I admire, is the realism of "surprise." For example: Magic is unheard of, and you have never seen it in your lifetime. Most locals think of magic as a folktale, made up to frighten young children.

 

You are humans drinking mugs of ale at the local tavern, and a fight breaks out. Suddenly a man in a roughly threaded brown cloak, gestures and utters some obscure words, and his attacker errupts in flames.

 

That's the realism I admire, not trying to make sauric dragons, or giants, being merely 7'7" tall humans. The Magic Realism I prefer is a real, palpable force; that empowers unrealistic monsters - like dragons and giants.

 

Magic that empowers spells like burning hands like effects (ala. D&D) and spells like Gandalf cast in The Hobbit, with the wargs and goblins. But magic is simply this, elitist and rare. If a person sees magic happen in his lifetime - he is one in a million.

 

BTW, according to one of my biology professors in high school (a Ph.D.). Giants are simply impossible creatures, according to physics.

 

Just some thoughts.

[Qamar]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

I'm not so sure about this. Shouldn't dragons, i.e. their skin and flesh, be highly resistant to fire?

 

I was thinking more along the lines of a badly hurt dragon who was leaking the hydrogen.

[tkdguy]

It is possible the elves and orcs are subraces of humanity. Or they all evolved from a common ancestor. They may or may not be able to breed depending on how far the races have diverged from one another.

 

Another thing that would need to be addressed is the racial psychology. In a medieval society, humans would be superstitious and xenophobic. That need not be the case with elves and orcs. If they are different enough to be considered different species, shouldn't the way they think be considerably different as well?

 

As for magic, I like having subtle effects. I read an article that described "how magic works in the real world." Basically, coins will not magically appear if the wizard casts a spell that would give him money. Instead the wizard would find some coins that had slipped out from a beltpouch. Similarly, a wizard wouldn't cause instant death on a target. But he could cast a spell, and the target would die from a freak accident (like being thrown from a horse) a week later.

 

Also, if magic were well known, there would be laws restricting its use. Firebals and the like (if you like flashy magic) would be illegal to cast in the city. Spells that dominate another's will would also be outlawed.

 

That being said, people believed in magic then. They often had charms to ward off evil (Darkness to sight, only vs. "the bad guys") or cure disease ( LS: Immunity to disease). And most people knew an incantation or two.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by ZootSoot

Actually, that's the theory that has been overthrown. genetic analysis has shown that homo sapiense neanderthalensis and homo sapiens sapiens could not successfully interbreed (though I am sceptical that the state of art can actually determine this from pure genetic analysis), but the evidence is also clear that the two groups existed side by side without genocidal conflict for millennia until the neanderthals went extinct (for whatever reason).

Thats odd; I just saw something on the Discovery Channel a couple of months ago, and I could have sworn it was mentioned that the Neanderthals may have just interbred w/ Cro Magnon until they didnt exist anymore.

[Galadorn]

Saint Cuthbert

 

B.T.W. Shrike, your friend who is the "expert" on Greyhawk, doesn't know Living Greyhawk it seems. In the section on Saint Cuthbert, it specifically says that Saint Cuthbert's follower assert that he is from another Prime Material Plane.

 

So much for this expert.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Thats odd; I just saw something on the Discovery Channel a couple of months ago, and I could have sworn it was mentioned that the Neanderthals may have just interbred w/ Cro Magnon until they didnt exist anymore.

 

It's kind of hard to prove either way. Given the nature of Homo Sapiens I wouldn't be surprised if it were a combination of genocide and interbreeding that put an end to the Neanderthals. There is very little, after all, that Sapiens is unwilling to kill and/or try to breed with.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Old Man

It's kind of hard to prove either way. Given the nature of Homo Sapiens I wouldn't be surprised if it were a combination of genocide and interbreeding that put an end to the Neanderthals. There is very little, after all, that Sapiens is unwilling to kill and/or try to breed with.

 

I heard some expert on Physical Anthropology say they never interbred. This was on ABC Radio - The John Batchelor Show.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Saint Cuthbert

 

Originally posted by Galadorn

B.T.W. Shrike, your friend who is the "expert" on Greyhawk, doesn't know Living Greyhawk it seems. In the section on Saint Cuthbert, it specifically says that Saint Cuthbert's follower assert that he is from another Prime Material Plane.

 

So much for this expert.

? Left Field What? Reference the post you are referring to please.

 

Do you mean the thread where I quote Erik Mona, the guy that co-WROTE Living Greyhawk Gazeteer and is widely regarded as being one of the greatest experts on Greyhawk in its many revisions and details? Odd that he could have written and edited the book, and then subsequently managed the LG Living City campaing without developing some kind of clue about LGG, the back story behind Cuthbert, and so forth. Oh well, strange world I suppose.

[AlHazred]

Originally posted by tkdguy

How about this:

1. The few remaining Australopithecus tribes fled into the forests and jungles, evolving into the elves. Not my idea actually; someone else did this already.

 

You're thinking of Michael Scott Rohan's Winter of the World series, which takes place on our world during the Ice Age. In that one, the "elves" (Rohan never calls them this) live in harmony with the forest, and are descended from the Australopithecines.

 

In this series, dwarfs are actually the Neanderthals, driven below-ground during an earlier Ice Age that destroyed their surface culture. They were master smiths because they had developed the craft thousands of years before Homo Sapiens. I used this idea in a fantasy game I ran years ago. Perhaps in your world, humans call them Dwarfs while the elves (who despise them) call them Orcs. That gives them an intriguing memetic blend of cultural ideas.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by AlHazred

You're thinking of Michael Scott Rohan's Winter of the World series, which takes place on our world during the Ice Age. In that one, the "elves" (Rohan never calls them this) live in harmony with the forest, and are descended from the Australopithecines.

 

In this series, dwarfs are actually the Neanderthals, driven below-ground during an earlier Ice Age that destroyed their surface culture. They were master smiths because they had developed the craft thousands of years before Homo Sapiens. I used this idea in a fantasy game I ran years ago. Perhaps in your world, humans call them Dwarfs while the elves (who despise them) call them Orcs. That gives them an intriguing memetic blend of cultural ideas.

In my new Machtig campaign, where we deliberately try to go against the stock racial types, the race that fills the "Orc" niche are called the Kor-vashi and are a "fallen" or degenerate sub race of the Var. The Var are basically hyper-Dwarves, extreme distilled versions of the typical Tolkeinesque Dwarves so to speak, and the Kor-vashi are basically Hill Dwarves with a rapacious "Orc-like" mindset.

 

The Elves are the Haelfinan (ALE-fin-nahn) and are very distilled extreme Sidhe-like faery elves, that would probably be extinct if they didnt live so long; small pockets of them are hidden around the main continents, but the only exist in numbers on a small continent/very large island (similar to Australia in comparison to the major continents). Some of the small pockets of Haelfinan survivng on the continent have started interbreeding selectively w/ some humans over the last 2000 years out of desperation, trying to widen their gene pool effectively, making many half elves, and then having different full-bloods breed w/ the half elves and so on, trying to remove the human "taint" over several generations. This is resulted in the beginings of what would be considered Wood Elves, Grey Elves, and so on.

 

Affelaunes (AFF-ell-ons) are small voracious creatures that are aggressive in numbers but generally ineffective singly that live in hill land areas. Small concentrations can live semi peacefully with more powerful neighbors, but if they grow too numerous they start spreading like gophers. They have voracious appetites and this drives them to steal food and overhunt & forage. When they run out of food their appetites can drive them to start killing humans and other sentient races for food. They are essentially stout halflings, with a twist of Dark Sun 1/2lings thrown in; they too are a fallen subrace of Var, and fill the Goblin niche; thus the Kor-vashi and the Affelaunes are cousin races, and sometime cohabitate/work together.

 

and so on....

[tkdguy]

Actually, I never heard of Michael Scott Rohan. I just saw this on the internet somewhere; probably in the Worlds in the Net website. The person who did this may have ripped it off from Mr. Rohan, though.

[tkdguy]

For ideas on how to create a realistic world including its races, see my review on this thread.

[assault]

I haven't been following this thread, so I'm behind...

 

My approach to "realistic" magic is that it not only exists, but everyone practices it as part of their daily lives.

 

This practice typically takes the form of religion, or folk superstition, particularly where other forms of magic are outlawed or frowned upon. These are the socially acceptable forms of magic.

 

Other forms are more or less anti-social. While it is permissible to lay curses on enemies outside your society, it is not permissible to use them against people inside your society. This kind of behaviour tends to get you killed. For example, indigenous Australian societies killed sorcerors. At the same time, they would practice ceremonies that are arguably magical rituals that would aid their societies.

 

Magic is (was) commonplace in many societies. It just tends to be either integrated into the fabric of those societies, or is outlawed by them.

 

Of course, it has nothing to do with throwing fireballs around. Most of its effects are subtle. In the end, it's mainly about ensuring that the deties/spirits/powers that be favour you.

 

If you don't practice magic, they won't.

 

On Neanderthals and stuff: the evidence isn't conclusive. Skeletons have been found that appear to show a mixture of modern and Neanderthal characteristics. On the other hand, the sparse genetic evidence suggests that interbreeding was impossible. A weaker conclusion may be more likely: interbreeding was possible, but the identified Neanderthal traits were not passed on to the present day. That tends to split the difference quite nicely.

 

In any case, this is irrelevant to a fantasy world. Even in a "realistic" one, the GM still makes up the rules.

 

Frankly, my inclination would be to ignore nonhumans (almost) entirely! I'd go with Howard, not Tolkien, and have any nonhumans that are around be isolated remnants. But then, I'm not a huge Tolkien fan at the best of times.

 

The other possibility is that Elves, Dwarves and whatnot are actually supernatural entities, not "natural" ones. They may or may not have a physical presence, or may simply live "under the ground" in mounds, "over the sea", or where ever. They could even come from other dimensions!

 

Actually, L Sprague de Camp used that latter idea in some of his books. His demons were critters from other dimensions, summoned to this one by wizards. They weren't particularly evil, aside from being really ticked off at being enslaved in an alien and unpleasant dimension.

 

Anyway, the main secret to "realistic" fantasy is to forget everything you ever knew about DnD, and go back to the source material. And don't stress too much about "realism" when it's less fun than the alternative.

[tkdguy]

I agree with assault in most cases here. Except that Tolkien is still my favorite fantasy author. Going to the old legends is better than doing it the D&D way.

 

I prefer subtle magic to fireballs. You'd probably be lynched if you cast one in the middle of a civilized area. And everyone would probably know a prayer or incantation as well.

 

Elves and dwarves could be supernatural creatures if you want them to be. Or ignore them altogether. I like the evolution idea, though.

[tkdguy]

I think we need to decide what "realistic" is in this case. I usually mean nothing supernatural, but that would leave magic out. I personally have no problem with that, but others do. So it's a question of how many fantastic elements would you allow, and how fantastic can it be?

[Eosin]

Originally posted by assault

Anyway, the main secret to "realistic" fantasy is to forget everything you ever knew about DnD, and go back to the source material. And don't stress too much about "realism" when it's less fun than the alternative.

 

I can vouch for this. I am kinda of amazed at what I have discovered the last few months of going back to the begining and looking at source stuff and building a nice strong skeleton for my world.

 

Realistic...Realism is hard and sometimes it is not fantasy. I decided to pattern things with magic. I took the ...ummm... church and put a spin on it for magical use. The Synod [Mage Guys] try to regulate magic in all countries, they extort kings with fees for "arcane protection" require that all Chantries are sovriegn ground, giving rise to a sort of 3rd law - Temporal, Cannocial, and Magical - the mages of the synod are granted trial by peers....meaning unless it is treason or something close to that magnitude then they are going to get off.

 

I have some healers (the Order of Apathos) that formed the most powerful guild in the world when a gifted healer was brought before a king and was made to heal the worst sort of men. He refused and the king threw him in the dungeon. The semi-affiliated healers basically boycotted the country (Officially called a "Censure" and refused to heal anyone within the realm. They refused to attend births...etc....The king caved in the face of a common uprising.

 

Magic should affect the world and its political bodies but remember that people still feel most at home with a "pseudo-european mideval fantasy" sort of model, d20 aside.

 

 

Anyhoo, just my thoughts.

[tkdguy]

I don't know if Time-Life Books still prints them, but The Secret World series is good. It is a collection of old legends. I also recommend What Life was Like series (escpecially In the Age of Chivalry). Those would give lots of information about life in general at a certain time period.

[AmadanNaBriona]

a thought

 

A good source for ideas for subtle "realistic magic" is the vast body of modern pagan literature. While it runs the full range from thoughtful to dreck, even some of the lousy ones, from a practicing pagan perspective, are still great sources for gaming ideas. Almost all of my nortern magic comes from books on Asatru, runecraft, and the old sagas.Good books include "The Crones Book of Spells" which has nothing but incantations, page after page, intended more for their poetic value than as actual spells, and "Magic Alpahabets" which I found incredibly inspirational in my worldbuilding (besides...I love the idea that the code my warrior priestesses of the raven use has its origins with the Inquisiton )

 

I think the Neandertal Orcs is a great idea... reminds me of the 13th Warrior aka Eaters of the Dead, one of my favorite realistic fantasy movies and books.

[tkdguy]

I had Eaters of the Dead in mind, although I think it's just a retelling of the Beowulf saga. I've only seen the movie (13th Warrior), but I found enough parallels between that flick and the Beowulf vs. Grendel. Just like Independence Day was just an updated version of HG Wells' War of the Worlds. Not that I'm blasting the flick; I enjoyed it.

 

Of course, if older branches of humanity survived in isolated areas of the world, they would have evolved too. After centuries, they probably wouldn't be interfertile with humans any more. So no half-elves or half orcs would be around.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Eaters of the dead, etc

 

Yes, 13th Warrior was entirely a retelling of the Beowulf story. One of my all time favorite movies too. Studying the truth behind myth has been an enduring intrest of mine at it played right in to it. Speaking of which, it got me thinking about how some of my pet theories could be applied to a realistic fantasy game...

Mind you some of these take a few liberties with fact....

Dwarves/giants/ogres/goblins etc... especially veiwed from the perspective of the Norse cultures... could all be "mutants" in the real world meaning of the term... IIRC, the glacial areas of extreme northern europe are one of the main sources for radioactive ore... which could also tie in to some of the tales of them being mighty magical smiths. Anyone recall the tale of the dwarf who was forced to forge his captor a magic sword that always slew his foes, but was cursed to also slay its wielder? I could just imagine a pissed off smith forging a blade alloyed with a radioactive ore to spite his captor. Hell...maybe thats why Excalibur was sheathed in a variety of heavy dense objects while between owners. And it was said straight out that Excalibur's scabbard was more vaualbe than the blade, because it protected the bearer.

Over on my favorite islands, the early Myth cycles had the bronze age Tuatha De Dannan warring against a marauding race from the sea.... children of chaos and old night, The Formorians. They were deformed, some missing limbs and eyes, some part man and part animal, and a few abnormally beautiful. Their leader Balor had one great eye whos gaze was death.

Compare and contrast this to Norse myth and you may begin to see paralels. The Aesir went to war with the Vanir, gods of the elves, led by Odin who sacrificeds his eye for mystical power. In Celtic culture, leadershad to be unblemished. In Norse culture, a failure to die in battle was dishonorable. Many nordic sagas deal with various shapeshifters, like the berserks and the ulfwerenar, who took on some aspects of their animals in battle.

Woah... you're all smart out there...better cut this rambling short before I end up writing a novel...

As long as we are thinking about neadertals and australiopithicus as surviving, we can use cryptozooology to keep a few other remenants around. Who says dragons aren't the Coleceocanth of the middle ages? I'd probably say one of the giant crocodillians, ala Julian May (The Saga of the Pliestocine era)

And don't forget about Nessie the plesiosaur

[Killer Shrike]

13th Warrior is also one of my favorite movies. I mean, I intellectually know its not a good movie in the cinematic connotations of the word. But its one of very few movies that not only I can watch more than once, but have enjoyed it every time I have seen it.

 

My current campaign has some sympathetic elements from the 13th Warrior, both book and movie, thrown into the background -- nothing specific, more of a "look and feel" thing.

 

And yes, it is a modern retelling of Beowulf, as documented by the author in the book -- he wrote it to prove to a friend that hated Beowulf that there was an interesting tale that could still be enjoyed in the modern day.

 

The book & the movie are very different (even more so than usual). I recommend reading the book -- its a great example of an unusual tact to take when worldbuilding. The (fictional) reconstructed diary of a person from that period, annotated and commented by a modern historian. Very interesting stuff.

[tkdguy]

How about a well-made item or high technology (relatively) passing for "magic"? Let's say the dwarves are master craftsmen, known for making magical weapons. In reality, the dwarves just know more about metallurgy than humans or elves. So the weapons they make are of higher quality, being stronger and sharper. Natural abilities could then be "magical" too. Maybe the elves have better eyesight than humans and train constantly with the bow since childhood, eventually gaining great skill. Their accuracy could be considered a magical ability, especially after several retellings ("Elven archers never miss their mark!").

 

Hve you guys checked out this site? It's great. I recommend the Celestial David and Goliath, which runs along AdamanNaBriona's line of thought in his last post.

 

Lexiline