Can Worldbeaters beat the military?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

BTW, according to pg. 229-230 of the BBB, an airborne and blazing Firewing -- as an "extremely high-contrast moving" object -- can usually be spotted /without/ needing a PER roll. And that's just if we're talking about the Mark-One Eyeball.

 

Which, again, proves that the rules have more common sense that some people are admitting. You don't have to make a PER roll to spot a bonfire in the middle of a clear sky, any more than you'd have to make one to spot an elephant in your living room.

 

Edit -- especially since you're just trying to spot if he's over there /somewhere/, and not trying to localize exactly which hex he's in.

 

BTW, before you go on about 'TUV capabilities only', go check the rule -- in TUV -- about Vehicles and PER rolls. HInt -- the pilot gets his senses as well as the vehicle's.

Cool, they notice Firewing and then they have to deal with the fact that their missiles are going to be destroyed before they hit him.

 

The pilot's senses aren't as effective at ranges the radar is useful for. Why are you going on about the pilot's senses?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Chuckg, Agent X: thanks for the observations. I appreciate your insights, and the fact that they're coming from different perspectives which allows me to compare and contrast between your opinions.

 

I am saddened, though, that I've created yet another thread that seems to promote personal conflict between my board colleagues. And it isn't even political.

It's not your thread. Chuckg is just gunning for me. I refuse to stop posting on interesting threads just because he continually attempts to bait me.

 

It would be nice if he could post without attacking someone's character or intellect.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

And it isn't even political.

 

Bwahahahahaha.

 

That's a joke right? The worst arguments ever on these boards have always been Gaming Related stuff.

 

There are more, smaller flamewars on the NGD board, sure. But, the big, big arguments are always right here in the Champions or Rules boards.

 

D

[lemming]

I disagree with Firewing's Damage Shield to just be able to ignore the missiles. Or is it an area effect DS?

 

Are these Heat seeking missiles? If so, Firewing can just toss off a couple EB's, much like flares that pilot's use to distract missiles.

[Chuckg]

> The Damage Shield is linked to the Force Wall. The missiles

> should explode or be destroyed at that point, not the hex

> Firewing is in. And I think it is a safe bet that Firewing has

> enough of a clue that he knows missiles are going to be

> fired at him.

 

Really? The launching platform was several miles away.

 

So OK, Firewing, give me your Sight PER roll vs. a Range modifier of, ummmm, -18 or thereabouts. Whoops, didn't make it.

 

You see, Firewing is a blazing dot vs. an (edit) empty sky -- and the pilot only has to know that he's somewhere over there in that vague general direction. Since the missiles have their own on-board terminal guidance, the pilot doesn't need to know where Firewing is save to localize him down to the general square mile or so. That's why the pilot can spot Firewing.

 

Firewing, OTOH, has to know exactly when the missiles were fired and exactly what direction they're coming from -- at approximately Mach 1. Which requires him to either have his own attack warning radar, or to have Telescopic Vision on the order of Superman's. He has neither. AAMOF, with the exception of simple infrared vision... which is useless in this case as the missile's exhaust is pointing directly /away/ from him... Firewing has no Enhanced Senses at all.

 

So yet again, you have give Firewing a free assumption that is absolutely /not/ borne out by the rules. Could we make the favoritism slightly more blatant, please?

 

> I didn't ignore rules afaik. You are ignoring elements of my

> post. What perception rules or weapons suites did I ignore?

 

The ones I've already posted an itemized list of... twice? To the point of giving the exact page number?

 

Sheesh. And you wonder why I'm posting such grave doubts about your willingness or ability to read?

 

> Given that Firewing can knock missiles out of the air rather

> easily,

 

DCV Based On Non-Combat Velocity says that that missile has a DCV of 17. Do the math. Even if Firewing sees it, he damn sure ain't swatting it with his EB. The Force Wall is his only chance... but even that requires him to know that it's coming.

 

Furthermore, given that the F-18 can fire more than one missile... and can stagger its fire... the Force Wall is only stopping the first one. Ever heard of the term 'rocket ripple'?

 

> I didn't ignore the pilot's option of firing missiles and staying

> far from Firewing.

 

Right, which is why you didn't even mention it until after I specifically rammed it down your throat. O-kay...

 

> It is my argument that the missiles would

> not achieve the desired result

 

And your argument is fatally flawed, as it's based upon giving Firewing a precognitive Danger Sense that he does not have. If the F-18 fires from an extended stand-off range, Firewing has very good odds of not even knowing that it's /there/ until after the first missile salvo lands... he has no extended-range senses at all, neither does he have people on the ground with more extensive sensor packages who can talk to him via radio and vector him in on target (unlike the F-18s), and the plane does not suffer Firewing's great conspicuousness disadvantage in the air, unless you're looking directly up its afterburner.

 

[snip]

> As many crass responses with excessive sarcasm,

 

Sarcasm does not invalidate either facts or reasoning -- it merely means that you don't like it. Nobody wrote a rule saying 'If Agent X's feelings get hurt, his opponent is automatically wrong.'

 

> distortion,

 

I have distorted *nothing* that you have said, and I deny having done so, and I think you're an obnoxious piece of shit who can't "win" an argument save by whining and calling his enemy a liar without ever actually presenting a true fact of his own.

 

Because you haven't made a single rules call /right/ in "Firewing vs. F-18" since you got here.

 

> and hostitility as you have posted, I have to say this: You

> CONTINUE to behave like an ass. Your personal dislike for

> me does not excuse your constant hostility toward any of

> my responses.

 

No, the complete intellectual vacuousness of those responses does.

 

If you want me to treat you like somebody who's saying something worth listening to... say something that's worth listening to. Arguments that ignore rules, deliberately dumb down opponents, and conveniently "forget" about perfectly valid tactical options are not worth anything.

[Chuckg]

lemming -- re: using the EBs as flares to distract the missiles... first off, unless he uses the 20d6 or maybe the 12d6 Explosion, I would think that his Force Wall Damage Shield -- given that it's Area Effect -- is flaring 'hotter' than any of his EBs. Especially since it's Constant and the EBs are Instant. Decoy flares are usually built as Continuing Charges, and Firewing has no attacks that do likewise.

 

(Unless he's on the ground and near flammable objects, natch- - but if he's on the ground, the missiles can't be used. The scenario I'm outlining here requires Firewing to be caught flying at altitude.)

 

Second off, it requires him to know the missiles are on their way... which, if the pilot simply fires them from a decent stand-off distance, he won't.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Agent X

It's not your thread. Chuckg is just gunning for me. I refuse to stop posting on interesting threads just because he continually attempts to bait me.

 

It would be nice if he could post without attacking someone's character or intellect.

 

It would be nice if Agent X could wake up and realize that I've been talking very politely to everybody in this thread except him, and for a while, Champsguy.

 

IOW, he's making accusations that he *knows* are not true, and can plainly *see* that are not true -- but he doesn't *care* that they're not true, because his ego is hurt and the only thing that matters to him now is scoring a point on that accursed Chuckg by fair means or foul.

 

Feh. Behavior such as that disgusts me, and I won't stop pointing it out.

 

 

PS -- 'just gunning for you'? You're the one who butted into a point I was making against somebody else and started ragging on, yet *again*, about what a mean nasty and ignorant doodyhead Chuckg was. Your complaint today is on the same order of childishness as "Mommy! That mean Billy Henderson hit me back!"

[Chuckg]

BTW, this entire argument has so far been made the /more/ favorable assumption for Firewing -- that we are using the "MIssiles bought as vehicle" writeups.

 

If we use the "MIssiles bought as No Range Penalty RKAs with Lots Of Extended Range" writeup option, he's just plain hosed... they'll throw repeated salvos at him from well outside his maximum effective range until he's just been nickeled and dimed to death, or until he drops down low into the city and turns off the flames to disengage from the action.

 

Either way, however, Firewing can only destroy the fighters if their pilots first close in to within dogfighting range... which they are not going to do unless lobotomized.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Agent X

It's not your thread. Chuckg is just gunning for me. I refuse to stop posting on interesting threads just because he continually attempts to bait me.

 

I never said it was "my thread," just that I started it. I never asked you to stop posting - I appreciate your contribution, just as I appreciate Chuckg's.

 

But you're right. The animosity between you two has nothing to do with this thread. I'll ignore it in future and won't interfere between you two again.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Second off, it requires him to know the missiles are on their way... which, if the pilot simply fires them from a decent stand-off distance, he won't.

I'll have to take a look at the missile write-ups, but I'm betting Firewing is more manuerable. So if he knows he may be under attack, I'd give him a decent chance of avoiding them.

But that's my take as GM allowing supers to overshadow military response. Otherwise, Firewing would of already been taken out in the CU. It may fail a real world test, but for comic book mentality I see it more as a scenario where Firewing gets hit with one or two missiles and destroys a bunch of planes in response. Then the heroes show up.

 

If I was running a Super Agents game where the PCs were fighting supervillians with military hardware, then they would be able to deal with the villians. It's all about making the PCs more relevant than the NPCs.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by lemming

But that's my take as GM allowing supers to overshadow military response. Otherwise, Firewing would of already been taken out in the CU.

 

Not really...

 

... for the very simple reason that Firewing doesn't pick fights with the military. 5e Firewing is here to challenge interesting supers to single combats... the rest of the time, he's literally off the radar.

 

If Firewing were an alien invader here to conquer Earth for the glory of Malva, then yes, it'd be highly improbablye that he'd *NOT* get squished like a bug. He simply doesn't have enough mojo to beat down entire armed forces single-handed, even though he's a horrifically effective solo combatant. But he's not here for military action, he's just here to get in superpowered bar fights.

 

Which exactly befits his core concept as alien super-gladiator.

 

And since Firewing is not a military threat, but a law enforcement problem, they can't and won't send F-18s after him until he starts trying to burn down the White House or strafe the Pentagon.

 

That's all the explanation you really need to explain why Firewing hasn't died yet... posse commitatus.

[Chuckg]

Oh, there's a bit of canon to support the above...

 

UNTIL sourcebook, about Gateway space station -- Earth's first line of defense against alien invasion, no less!

 

When Firewing flew up to Gateway to check out the sights, the station commander didn't do anything other than go out and have a chat with him... and Gateway is a heavily armed military outpost with space fighters on call.

 

This would seem to indicate that the current military policy of Earth-Champions re: Firewing is "So long as he's just brawling with superheroes, he's the superheros' problem -- we're saving our ordnance for the /real/ alien invaders."

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Either way, however, Firewing can only destroy the fighters if their pilots first close in to within dogfighting range... which they are not going to do unless lobotomized.

 

This is a point that interests me vis-a-vis simple alterations to existing character writeups. I've noticed that very few of the fliers in 5E Champions books have significant Non-Combat Multipliers - they're actually painfully slow compared to modern aircraft. Someone like Firewing, who has the power to cross interstellar space on his own, should certainly be able to justify a few Machs in Earth's atmosphere.

 

Do you think things would change if you slapped, say, a x16 or x32 NCM onto Firewing's speed, so that he would be able to intercept jet fighters and hang with them? I know that his OCV would start at 0 in this case, but he still has quite a few offensive Skill Levels and jets are fairly large targets. And his velocity based DCV would probably be fairly good (I'll have to go calculate that).

[Chuckg]

/ponders some more/

 

AAMOF, since I don't know of any superhero who has yet /died/ at Firewing's hands... merely gotten pummelled a lot... the most serious crime Firewing is currently guilty of is battery and reckless property damage. Nobody sends out F-18 squadrons for /that/.

[Chuckg]

> This is a point that interests me vis-a-vis simple alterations

> to existing character writeups. I've noticed that very few

> of the fliers in 5E Champions books have significant Non-

> Combat Multipliers - they're actually painfully slow

> compared to modern aircraft.

 

/nods/ NC Multipilers are expensive... MegaScale Flight bought in a multipower somewhat less so, admitted.

 

> Someone like Firewing, who has the power to cross

> interstellar space on his own, should certainly be able to

> justify a few Machs in Earth's atmosphere.

 

Actually, Firewing's character description specifically states that his crossing interstellar space on his own was a one-time thing, and that Firewing's power has massively faded since that first peak.

 

Add -- went and looked it up.

 

My error -- he /does/ still have residual HyperFlight (FTL Travel) -- 1 light/year per day.

 

Of course, he first has to get out of the atmosphere to use it...

 

That may be another reason why Firewing doesn't get shot down (in addition to all the reasons above) -- when travelling from city to city, he's *not* flying under his own power. IIRC, when he's /not/ "flaming on", Firewing can easily pass for human... he has no Distinctive Features.

 

So that arrogant-looking red-haired guy in first class might just be...

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Do you think things would change if you slapped, say, a x16 or x32 NCM onto Firewing's speed, so that he would be able to intercept jet fighters and hang with them? I know that his OCV would start at 0 in this case, but he still has quite a few offensive Skill Levels and jets are fairly large targets. And his velocity based DCV would probably be fairly good (I'll have to go calculate that).

 

Actually, the rules about Velocity-Based DCV state that Noncombat DCV is based on /relative/ velocity.

 

So if you had two people using MegaScale or high NC Movement... but the same inches of it, and moving on similar courses at similar speeds... their relative velocity to each other would be almost /zero/, and so they could attack each other at normal OCV and DCV despite their both being OCV 0 to the rest of the stationary world.

 

For a comic-book example, think "Flash vs. Professor Zoom".

 

(Specifically, the scene where the two of them were having a running hand-to-hand brawl at .99 c.)

 

So yes, if Firewing could maneuver at F-18 like speeds, he'd be ripping them apart... their greatest advantage, the ability to keep the range open and stand him off, would be almost completely neutralized. If Firewing /can/ close with them under his own power, he /will/, and as soon as he gets to within knife-fighting distance the advantage is all is.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Not really...

 

... for the very simple reason that Firewing doesn't pick fights with the military. 5e Firewing is here to challenge interesting supers to single combats... the rest of the time, he's literally off the radar.

 

If Firewing were an alien invader here to conquer Earth for the glory of Malva, then yes, it'd be highly improbablye that he'd *NOT* get squished like a bug. He simply doesn't have enough mojo to beat down entire armed forces single-handed, even though he's a horrifically effective solo combatant. But he's not here for military action, he's just here to get in superpowered bar fights.

 

Which exactly befits his core concept as alien super-gladiator.

 

And since Firewing is not a military threat, but a law enforcement problem, they can't and won't send F-18s after him until he starts trying to burn down the White House or strafe the Pentagon.

 

That's all the explanation you really need to explain why Firewing hasn't died yet... posse commitatus.

 

Okay, I can see running Firewing strictly according to those parameters, confining himself solely to fights with challenging single foes or small groups. Those "bar fights" are likely to cause an awful lot of collateral property damage, though. Firewing is a vastly greater threat to public safety than the average brawler. I've seen some cases over the years when what should be a law enforcement issue escalates due to the numbers or firepower of the parties involved, necessitating calling out the US National Guard at the very least.

 

Maybe Firewing isn't the most fruitful example, though. How about Gravitar? This is a villain who openly declares her desire to conquer the world, and tries to do so personally through very destructive uses of her power. She supposedly has met modern military units in battle, and trashed them. Does she really have the juice to pull that off?

[Chuckg]

Gravitar?

 

Actually, yes. Her defenses /are/ sufficient to withstand attack by large amounts of modern forces, and she has several area-effect gravity attacks -- the forced levitation, the "increase gravity' power, etc -- that might as well be custom-designed for rendering large groups of normals, even normals in modern military vehicles, helpless.

 

And that Technology Destruction of hers is just plain ugly -- her power writeup /does/ support her holding a small army helpless with one hand while crushing its strongest members one at a time with the other.

 

Especially since she likes to fight in cities and down low to the ground, where heavy air-to-air can't be used... and tanks and artillery are about as useless against her as they are against Magneto, and for much of the same reasons.

 

Add -- if Gravitar went down to, say, Iraq and tried taking on the entire 4th Division... well, unless she had enough sense to know when to cut and run, they'd eventually wear her down. But by then, they'd have taken notable casualties.

 

OTOH, so long as she confines herself to, say, walking into the middle of a nation's capital, causing a ruckus, trashing the first battalion or so of fast-response troops, and then waving a cheery good-bye before they get desperate enough to unlimber the heavy strategic assets, Gravitar's career can potentially go on for a long, long time -- barring superhero intervention, of course.

[Chuckg]

> Those "bar fights" are likely to cause an awful lot of

> collateral property damage, though. Firewing is a vastly

> greater threat to public safety than the average brawler.

> I've seen some cases over the years when what should be a

> law enforcement issue escalates due to the numbers or

> firepower of the parties involved, necessitating calling out

> the US National Guard at the very least.

 

Yes, but by the time, /that/ happens -- fight's over, Firewing's gone. In this scenario, the point made earlier about "deployment time" *does* come into play -- it takes a minimum of /hours/ for what was originally a law enforement situation to reach the point where the National Guard is being deployed. All the examples I can think of involved mass rioting over a period of several days.

 

Firewing, natch, is an emergency that in virtually any conceivable circumstance doesn't last longer than several minutes... either he's out by then, or his opponents are.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Chuckg

/ponders some more/

 

AAMOF, since I don't know of any superhero who has yet /died/ at Firewing's hands... merely gotten pummelled a lot... the most serious crime Firewing is currently guilty of is battery and reckless property damage. Nobody sends out F-18 squadrons for /that/.

Hmm, that could be. I guess I just don't worry about these things since I run different villians and different HW.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Firewing, natch, is an emergency that in virtually any conceivable circumstance doesn't last longer than several minutes... either he's out by then, or his opponents are.

 

As a note -- when Firewing showed in our game, he caused some careless property damage... he didn't bother to use the door to enter the Mayor's office, he simply burned a hole in the window. And his Damage Shield caused some minor fires on the pedestrian walkways.

 

However, the character he challenged -- our flying brick, Horus-Re -- qutie simply played on Firewing's vanity and said that the best venue for their fight would be airborne combat at 10,000 feet, so that all of Millennium City could get a good view of the glorious spectacle. Firewing readily agreed to this, and they proceeded to spend the next two Turns pounding the snot outta each other... with precisely zero damage to the surroundings, as they were more than a mile and a half up in the air.

 

The fight was a tie by mutual KO, for the record. *g*

 

 

(The reason Firewing burnt his way into the mayor's office is because he didn't know Horus-Re's address, but did know he had an appointment with the mayor that morning.)

[Gary]

One thing about Jet fighters. They're *LOUD*. Even if they were at standoff range where Firewing couldn't see them, he would most likely be able to *hear* them and take precautions. Precautions such as the Damage Shield.

 

Also, if he can determine where the Jet is, he can attack effectively from 525" away, or about 1 kilometer. Not a great range when dealing with jets, but he's vastly more maneuverable and can avoid their attacks through a combination of Force Wall or evasive maneuvers. Also he can climb and dive much easier. He can operate at any altitude, which gives him a huge advantage over fighter jets which have limits on their altitude.

 

What is the attack level of a Hornet's missile? It would take a pretty decent missile to be able to harm Firewing.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I never said it was "my thread," just that I started it. I never asked you to stop posting - I appreciate your contribution, just as I appreciate Chuckg's.

 

But you're right. The animosity between you two has nothing to do with this thread. I'll ignore it in future and won't interfere between you two again.

Good Gravy, I give up LL. When I said it's not your thread I meant it is not your thread that is causing any problems. You may think of this thread as not "your" thread but that is the way I was referring to it. I was not making a comment about whose thread it was. I have never needed to make any such comments to you LL.

 

Just because I respond to Chuckg's animosity by pointing it out, I would hope you can distinguish between that and how I converse with you.

 

My response was simply pointing out the culprit behind the divisiveness - Chuckg - who attempts to personalize any topic that both he and I write about. Presumably, this is because I didn't put up with his histrionics on the DD/Takofanes thread.

[Chuckg]

> One thing about Jet fighters. They're *LOUD*.

 

Locating an aircraft by sound alone is nigh-impossible. You might know it's out there /somewhere/... but where? I live under an airport traffic pattern. I hear whooshings all day, but the only reason I know where from is because I know where the regular routes are. If it's not a scheduled flight, it can potentially be any-god-damned-where within the surrounding 100 square miles and I'd still hear the same thing.

 

> Even if they were at standoff range where Firewing couldn't

> see them, he would most likely be able to *hear* them and

> take precautions. Precautions such as the Damage Shield.

 

His Force Wall Damage Shield covers 1 hex. Firewing has to know at least roughly which direction the attack is arriving from before he can use it to defend himself.

 

His personal Damage Shield is 'too little, too late' -- sure, the missile destroys itself when it hits him, but by that time, it's already gone boom.

 

re: the range- - well, the missile is capable of travelling 7.6 kilometers / Turn, and its Fuel Charge lasts an entire minute... the F-18 doesn't have to be anywhere /near/ within 1 kilometer of Firewing to hose a few off and let them burn in.

 

[snip]

> What is the attack level of a Hornet's missile? It would take

> a pretty decent missile to be able to harm Firewing.

 

It's not so much the 5d6 AP 1-Hex Accurate RKA that's hurting him, it's the damage from a 1,280" / Phase Non-Combat Move Through. When a large chunk of metal going Mach 1 flies into you, you notice.

 

 

Addendum -- assuming that the pilot is using the aircraft's +3 levels w/ Flight as DCV, the DCV of an F-18 is 11.

 

Vs. Firewing's maximum OCV of 15, this means his chance to hit at 128 hexes, much less 525, is about 6 or less.

 

If he uses the Explosion EB, his chance to hit at a range of 513-1024 hexes is 9-.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

BTW, this entire argument has so far been made the /more/ favorable assumption for Firewing -- that we are using the "MIssiles bought as vehicle" writeups.

 

If we use the "MIssiles bought as No Range Penalty RKAs with Lots Of Extended Range" writeup option, he's just plain hosed... they'll throw repeated salvos at him from well outside his maximum effective range until he's just been nickeled and dimed to death, or until he drops down low into the city and turns off the flames to disengage from the action.

 

Either way, however, Firewing can only destroy the fighters if their pilots first close in to within dogfighting range... which they are not going to do unless lobotomized.

LL asked for a comparison of the published Fighter and a published Worldbeater - the missiles are bought as vehicles. The missiles aren't going to hit Firewing. He can extend his force wall out and the force wall is a large area heat source. The missiles will explode harmless when they reach it and they affect a single hex. If he needed to use flares it would be a simple matter to toss the area affecting explosive EB to create a large heat pattern which presumably would last longer than its instantaneous damaging effects.

 

On perception. Firewing's Damage Shield doesn't need to notice the missiles to do their thing and Firewing isn't stupid. Given a situation where the Fighters are being called out, Firewing is likely threatening something important and is aware that there will be a military response. And, if the missiles are moving at NON-COM wouldn't there effective OCV be 0 anyway? That significantly reduces their chance of hitting.