Can Worldbeaters beat the military?

[Chuckg]

Won't that be a major surprise to SHIELD... or UNTIL, for that matter.

 

(At their level, the distinction between 'peacekeeping force' and 'military' is almost purely a matter of semantics, not of capability.)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Won't that be a major surprise to SHIELD... or UNTIL, for that matter.

 

(At their level, the distinction between 'peacekeeping force' and 'military' is almost purely a matter of semantics, not of capability.)

SHIELD routinely asks for the assistance of Supers because it is fairly limited against Supervillains.

[Chuckg]

And this is the same SHIELD whose boss used to have his own comic series, which got its own limited series, and which used to storm the bases of people like the Red Skull and Baron Zemo to go try and /rescue/ Captain America, much less not need his assistance?

 

Or was that the /other/ SHIELD?

 

/sarcasm off

 

This whole bias of 'If it's not a superhero or supervillain, it ain't significant and can be plowed under any costumed boot' is /not/ what the comic books are all about, IMO. Whatever happened to considering common humanity to be worth a crap?

 

PS -- arguing that something "isn't genre" for the Champions Universe when it's already been written into umpteen bloody sourcebooks is really, and I do mean /really/, foolish looking.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

And this is the same SHIELD whose boss used to have his own comic series, which got its own limited series, and which used to storm the bases of people like the Red Skull and Baron Zemo to go try and /rescue/ Captain America, much less not need his assistance?

 

Or was that the /other/ SHIELD?

 

/sarcasm off

Your sarcasm is hardly ever off.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

This whole bias of 'If it's not a superhero or supervillain, it ain't significant and can be plowed under any costumed boot' is /not/ what the comic books are all about, IMO. Whatever happened to considering common humanity to be worth a crap?

 

PS -- arguing that something "isn't genre" for the Champions Universe when it's already been written into umpteen bloody sourcebooks is really, and I do mean /really/, foolish looking.

ChuckG, I mentioned comics, not Steve Long's take on a genre. And Nick Fury is a superhero - he's had an anti-aging, vitality serum given to him, basically a watered-down supersoldier formula. Supers working in the military is not part of a comparison of the conventional military and Superheroes. There isn't much of a debate by anyone about whether government superheroes/agents/villains match up well with other superheroes.

[Chuckg]

> Your sarcasm is hardly ever off.

 

Not when talking to you, at any rate. Then again, there is a reason... and you can find him in your mirror.

 

[snip]

> ChuckG, I mentioned comics, not Steve Long's take on a

> genre.

 

And I mentioned the Champions Universe and several comics, not Agent X's take on a genre.

 

> And Nick Fury is a superhero - [snip]

 

... and everybody working for him, likewise? 'Cause they got major play in SHIELD storylines as well.

 

Indeed, SHIELD gets to accomplish significant things to the superhero world without superhero backup on every mission. Does this mean that superheroes are unnecessary? No. But does this mean that SHIELD can never win unless superheroes are helping it? Also no.

 

[snip last-ditch attempt to move the goalposts so that Agent X can never have to yield a point]

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Your sarcasm is hardly ever off.

 

Not when talking to you, at any rate. Then again, there is a reason... and you can find him in your mirror.

 

[snip]

> ChuckG, I mentioned comics, not Steve Long's take on a

> genre.

 

And I mentioned the Champions Universe and several comics, not Agent X's take on a genre.

 

> And Nick Fury is a superhero - [snip]

 

... and everybody working for him, likewise? 'Cause they got major play in SHIELD storylines as well.

 

Indeed, SHIELD gets to accomplish significant things to the superhero world without superhero backup on every mission. Does this mean that superheroes are unnecessary? No. But does this mean that SHIELD can never win unless superheroes are helping it? Also no.

 

[snip last-ditch attempt to move the goalposts so that Agent X can never have to yield a point]

The Goalpost moving is being done by somebody who wants to bring up Shield when the bulk of the posters seemed to agree that the discussion was about the conventional military, tanks and fighters and the like, vs. superheroes - Not Helicarriers.

[Chuckg]

The Helicarrier, Agent X, was a significant factor in precisely none of the SHIELD activities I was referring to. It might as well have been Fort Podunk, Alaska, for all the relevance it had -- merely a place to fly from and go back to when the day's work was done.

 

Not to mention, natch, that rather long chunk of comics history when SHIELD had no helicarrier.

 

BTW, o goalpost grabber, neither the title of this thread nor the initial posts in it specify only the most conventional real-world military apps be discussed -- the words used are, quote, the military, end quote. As a military force of a superhero universe, SHIELD... or at least, it's more mundane aspects... qualifies. Ditto UNTIL, a recognized military/para-military force of the Champions U.

 

Your blanket statements about the military always losing to supers are too broad and cover too much territory -- they make absolutely zero allowance for /which/ military or /which/ supers. If you want a game where shining gods in spandex always trash slow, clumsy chumps in green suits with popguns just as easily as GI Joe used to whomp on Cobra between every commercial break... and with just as little suspense or dramatic tension... well, it's your game, you can run it however you feel like.

 

What you can't do, however, is claim that the entire genre runs just like your game. Sometimes it did...

 

... and sometimes it didn't.

 

And trying to handwave away every contrary example does nothing for you.

[megaplayboy]

What constitutes a "worldbeater"? I'm pretty sure that means someone built on more than 350 points, or someone built on that many points who has 100+ experience.

So, 250 point heroes vs. comic book military? Squad-beaters, yes. Have a hard time with a mechanized platoon.

350 point heroes? Beat the platoon, probably, struggle against that platoon combined with a tank platoon.

450 point heroes? Pull off a win against the above, struggle a bit if you toss in a quartet of Apache choppers.

600 point heroes? Whomp the above, have a very tough time against a megamat packed with military forces(2-3x the above, plus artillery or air support).

700+ point, 150+ active point cosmic types? Unless it's got the nuclear triangle on the ordnance, forget it. Waste of time to deploy agents, soldiers, or anything less than superhuman level resistance.

 

Nothing in the non-nuclear arsenal is going to top 10d6 KA,imo. At a certain power level, most supers will be able to take that and survive. At the highest levels, they can recover from stunned status, take another recovery or two, and be good as new.

[gewing]

Do y ou really believe that elite troops, or even most troops are speed 2?

 

I always figured supers had to be speed 6 to be significantly faster than a highly trained normal. YMMV

 

Originally posted by Agent X

Why do you think the military has significant numbers of speed 3 or 4 threats?

 

Things like the dive for cover of 50 yards - That's a little under 25 hexes which plenty of supers can do.

 

Let's remember the military has gotta make perception rolls before they even make attack rolls. Let's remember that Superman is the guy who will take the direct approach and Batman is the guy who takes the indirect approach.

 

The military can't beat Supers with conventional tools.

[gewing]

This reminds me of one of my problems with a lot of super games. I have a hard time envisioning the characters as the equivalent of MAJOR level Deities, able to ignore all but other deities. I guess I like a lower super Heroic level than many. Oh well...

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

As for the other points...

 

> Why do you think the military has significant numbers of

> speed 3 or 4 threats?

 

Three words -- Holding Your Action. With an entire army full of guys, you can all take shifts and still have plenty of people available to go on every phase.

 

[snip, already addressed above]

 

> Let's remember the military has gotta make perception rolls

> before they even make attack rolls.

 

Well, if the supers are using attack powers on something, the forward observer shouldn't have much problem noticing what hex they're in.

 

And if they're not? /nods/ Invisible types can sneak by, that was already conceded... God, at least two days ago.

 

Of course, not every super buys Invisibility or the uber-stealth package, so making this statement of yours a /blanket/ statement might be a bit much.

 

[snip]

> The military can't beat Supers with conventional tools.

 

To quote Spike -- "Don't you ever get tired of fights you know you're going to win?"

 

Unless you're running a campaign based on the Teragen Pantheon, taking the attitude that normals will always be helpless vs. supers, even with the biggest guns in the world and odds of literally 'an entire army vs. you' is really *not* genre.

[Lord Liaden]

I think megaplayboy (above) is in the right ballpark as far as what I was going for.

 

Cosmic types are a little outside of this discussion. They're depicted as operating on an entirely different level. I think most of us would agree that Dr. Destroyer or Takofanes could be expected to stand up against a respectable part of any conventionally armed army in the world, either through raw power or the deus ex machina gimmicks that they could whip up. It's the characters on the tier just below them that concern me.

 

Let's consider some of the "master villains" and "world-class threats" that have been written up in the Champions Universe to date; the likes of Mechanon, Firewing, Holocaust, Dark Seraph, Eurostar. These guys are supposed to be heavyweights, beings who have the potential to threaten at least significant chunks of the world. Some are masterminds who develop elaborate schemes involving global mind control, nuclear armageddon, or other things that demand secrecy and preparation. Often times overwhelming force is not the way to deal with them; you need a small, mobile strike team to penetrate the villain's base and shut down their schemes. This is a common and perfectly legitimate mission for superheroes, and their power level relative to the armed forces is not the issue - it's a mission for a scalpel, not a chain saw (albeit an exceptionally keen scalpel).

 

But sometimes in the comics the villain just wades into a target and starts mowing down whatever opposition stands between him and his objective. No subtlety, just raw force (although often augmented by sound tactics). Conventional military are frequently depicted as being unable to stop them; that's when the tough-guy superheroes are called in. Several of the villains mentioned above are described as operating that way, in their background writeups or their history. Heck, one member of Eurostar, Durak, was supposed to have done pretty well against the Russian army by himself. It says in his writeup that he "delivers punches that can penetrate tank armor and shrugs off soldiers' gunfire as if they were kids with peashooters." This for a STR 70 brick with 30/30 Defenses. Can we look at the weapon and vehicle writeups we have in 5E and say that Durak could be used that way against this kind of firepower?

 

Note that I'm not saying that the heavyweight characters should be used like this in anyone's games if the GM doesn't want them to be that tough. It's just that villains do operate that way in the comics sometimes, gamers might want to run a scenario like that, and these villains are written as being that level of foe. If they can't be used that way when desired, the alternatives are to (1) pump up their power level with more Character Points, in which case all your PC superheroes need to be similarly boosted so they can match them; (2) rewrite all the conventional hardware so that it's less powerful; or (3) tweak some of the rules to allow superbeings to be more effective against conventional forces, while still being competitive with each other.

 

Most of the discussion we've had here has been over whether supers should or should not be able to stand up to the military. We've had people asserting that they should be able to, scenarios described showing how they couldn't be expected to, and others demonstrating uses for them outside of direct confrontation with the military. I would say that there is precedent in the source material for at least some villains to have that capacity, and that the game should be able to support PC heroes fighting that level of foe if players want to. What I was asking from the beginning was, Does anyone think (or have empirical evidence supporting) that these powerful villains as written could or could not withstand the kind of response they're likely to draw from military forces equipped with ordnance as written?

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by gewing

Do y ou really believe that elite troops, or even most troops are speed 2?

 

I always figured supers had to be speed 6 to be significantly faster than a highly trained normal. YMMV

 

If the benchmarks in the official books carry any weight for you, FREd defines Competent Normals (at the level of professional athletes) as up to SPD 3. I'd expect most well-trained soldiers to fall into that category. Elite forces might achieve SPD 4, but beyond that we're getting into the realm of exceptional Heroes.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by gewing

This reminds me of one of my problems with a lot of super games. I have a hard time envisioning the characters as the equivalent of MAJOR level Deities, able to ignore all but other deities. I guess I like a lower super Heroic level than many. Oh well...

 

Fair enough. You should run that kind of game if that's what you enjoy, and Champions certainly handles that level quite well.

 

Thing is, some super characters really are major level deities, figuratively or even literally. If someone wants that level of play, then the game should support that, too.

 

Personally I like to run the spectrum, depending on what I and my players are in the mood for.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

What I was asking from the beginning was, Does anyone think (or have empirical evidence supporting) that these powerful villains as written could or could not withstand the kind of response they're likely to draw from military forces equipped with ordnance as written?

 

Well, in the specific case of Durak, the army he was whipping was apparently the early-90's or post-breakup Russian Army -- which was /really/ in the dumpster re: training, material readiness condition, and equipment. If Durak had tried that against the 2nd Armored, he might very well have enjoyed a different result.

 

Not to mention that his description says he can penetrate tank armor (true, at least if you're talking about a Russian tank), but resist /gunfire/... not tank fire. Which means he wasn't bouncing the tank cannons, he was avoiding them. Which implies tanks with lousy stabilization and firecontrol, and unpracticed gunners... which was what the Russian Army looked like circa the early 90's.

 

/Generally/ speaking... as I've said all along... there are some scenarios in which the military can whomp supers, some scenarios in which the military isn't even useful, a few high-power megavillains who just ignore anything short of nukes, and a lot of 350-pointers who have to worry about anything above small units. Which is about what you said.

 

Which is why blanket statements of 'The military is helpless against supers' and whatnot irk me a bit. As you said, there is a spectrum.

[Agent X]

The F/A-18C has a 16- perception at 128 hexes away. It is fairly likely that it will detect the super 1,000 hexes away as it is written up in TUV.

 

Firewing is likely to perceive the Hornet much, much sooner.

 

Its M61A Cannon fires at an 11 OCV with no range penalties up to 128 hexes away. However, if the Hornet is moving at Non-Com speeds isn't its OCV dropped to 0?

 

Another problem for the cannon is it has to be dead on to hit the target. It has no firing arc to speak of.

 

The cannon is a 4d6k autofire 10. It's likely to hit one or two times at 128 hexes. That's going to do no body and no stun on average but could do up to 4 body and 120 stun with a one in 10,000 or somesuch roll. Firewing is not likely to be stunned even with a good hit.

 

Firewing can have a 15 OCV but has no range modifiers so he's staring at a 5 OCV at 128 hexes. He is likely to hit the Hornet with his 12d6 Fireball which would do 6 body past defenses on average to the Hornet. The Competent Normal pilot inside will take 2 body and 32 stun from the fireball placing him 7 under 0 stun. If our pilot is hit on Post 12, he will shake off the cobwebs and be able to do something on Phase 8. Meanwhile, his Hornet has been flying out of control for 2 phases of its movement and may have stalled or who knows what? Now, based on what I've seen in the movies all sorts of bad things could be happening that the pilot's 14- combat piloting may not be able to compensate for. Control roll modifiers: -1 per 2 body pilot has taken, -1 per 2" knockback, penalties based on velocity, -1 per 2 body on the vehicle. That pilot is looking at least at -4 plus penalties based on velocity which I would think would range anywhere from -1 to -2. The book doesn't seem to deal with controll modifiers for air vehicles too well.

 

Considering the Hornet's missiles: The missiles have a 13 OCV and a 9 DCV. the missiles move at 40" velocity. Firewing can hit these fairly easily and reliably do enough body to blow them up before they hit him. Additionally, I'd rule that Firewing's forcewall/rka damage shield would set the missiles off meaning he could essentially ignore them.

 

Hornet's pilot: 3 Speed

Firewing: 7 speed

 

Firewing can pretty much take out one Hornet or missile every phase. I think he's use his damage shield to deal with the missiles. That means in a turn, Firewing will be able to take on 7 Hornets. I can't see more than one or two Hornets being able to maneuver to hit Firewing with their autofire cannons considering the firing arc difficulties and his turn mode. Firewing most likely will not take significant stun and Firewing is very likely to take out more than half of the Hornets in one turn.

[Agent X]

Questions: Do Missiles move at combat or noncom speeds?

 

Why are Hornets moving at something like 30 miles per hour if they are making half moves and firing? or are they moving at noncom speed reducing their OCV to 0?

 

If these vehicles are moving at non-com speeds it's pretty obvious why Firewing will eat their lunch. They won't hit him except 1 out of 216 times.

[Agent X]

Firewing vs. the Abrams

 

Firewing is going to ignore the cannon. It's not gonna be able to hit Firewing flying like he does. The Abrams has weapons for just such an issue: an anti-aircraft gun that is a mere 3d6 autofire 10; I say mere because it's shooting at Firewing. Firewing is going to be able to rain fire down from above on these tanks. They have really good defenses but it's only a matter of a well-placed shot.

[Chuckg]

*sigh*

 

As usual, Agent X's analysis assumes that the pilot is a blithering idiot.

 

1) Why the hell is he using the radar -- which is what you're using -- to track a target for using the cannon on?

 

2) Why are you assuming that the pilot is so blind that he can't spot a flaming object in the open sky?

 

3) Why are you having the pilot close for a gun pass when the heat-seeking missiles can be fired from miles away anywhere toward's Firewing's general direction, and their own terminal guidance packages will close in for the final kill?

 

4) Why did you completely fail to notice that the missiles were built as separate vehicles specifically so that the warcraft could fire them while in Non-Combat Movement.. 'cause the little peckers have their own OCV?

 

5) And when you finally look at the missile, will you then fail to notice that the thing was deliberately designed to have fair odds of achieving a Noncombat Move-Through?

 

 

There is a defense Firewing can use vs. the incoming AMRAAMs... I mentioned it a few pages ago... but unless the pilot is a congenital retard, he is /not/ going to close to within 128 hexes.

 

And even by TUV, this is legal. The PER roll is to successfully target Firewing with a Targeting Sense to localize exactly which hex he is in -- which isn't necessary if you're cutting loose the air-to-air missiles in passive IR mode. To do that, you only need to know that he's /somewhere/ over in that general direction, which is blindingly obvious to anyone with the Mark-One Eyeball. Firewing, due to the special effects of his Flight and Damage Shield, is a target you don't need radar lock to hit.

[Chuckg]

/sigh/

 

The Hornet, Agent X, uses the /missiles/ when flying at Noncombat Speeds... and when you look at the missiles, you'll notice that they're specifically designed for the NC Velocity Move-Through. The 'Gravitar vs. Viperia' thread has a very detailed discussion of how such a thing is done.

 

*checks off another repetition*

 

 

BTW, another thing you forgot -- the F-18 has +3 levels w/ Flight. If those levels are put into defense, it has DCV 11, not DCV 8.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

*sigh*

 

As usual, Agent X's analysis assumes that the pilot is a blithering idiot.

 

1) Why the hell is he using the radar -- which is what you're using -- to track a target for using the cannon on?

 

2) Why are you assuming that the pilot is so blind that he can't spot a flaming object in the open sky?

 

3) Why are you having the pilot close for a gun pass when the heat-seeking missiles can be fired from miles away anywhere toward's Firewing's general direction, and their own terminal guidance packages will close in for the final kill?

 

4) Why did you completely fail to notice that the missiles were built as separate vehicles specifically so that the warcraft could fire them while in Non-Combat Movement.. 'cause the little peckers have their own OCV?

 

5) And when you finally look at the missile, will you then fail to notice that the thing was deliberately designed to have fair odds of achieving a Noncombat Move-Through?

 

 

There is a defense Firewing can use vs. the incoming AMRAAMs... I mentioned it a few pages ago... but unless the pilot is a congenital retard, he is /not/ going to close to within 128 hexes.

 

And even by TUV, this is legal. The PER roll is to successfully target Firewing with a Targeting Sense to localize exactly which hex he is in -- which isn't necessary if you're cutting loose the air-to-air missiles in passive IR mode. To do that, you only need to know that he's /somewhere/ over in that general direction, which is blindingly obvious to anyone with the Mark-One Eyeball. Firewing, due to the special effects of his Flight and Damage Shield, is a target you don't need radar lock to hit.

Firewing, due to the special effects of his Damage Shield isn't going to suffer any damage by those missiles from the writeup in TUV. Sigh all you want to, LL asked for someone to compare a Worldbeater from the Book and the vehicles from TUV. I did that and I bothered to look it up and consider several factors. You haven't. Your "real-word" experience is of limited usefulness in this endeavor to compare two published writeups. The Pilot, btw, is better off using the radar.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

/sigh/

 

The Hornet, Agent X, uses the /missiles/ when flying at Noncombat Speeds... and when you look at the missiles, you'll notice that they're specifically designed for the NC Velocity Move-Through. The 'Gravitar vs. Viperia' thread has a very detailed discussion of how such a thing is done.

 

*checks off another repetition*

 

 

BTW, another thing you forgot -- the F-18 has +3 levels w/ Flight. If those levels are put into defense, it has DCV 11, not DCV 8.

The Missiles won't hit Firewing and the Hornet could easily stay out of Firewing's effective range and do nothing but send missiles to explode before they hit him.

 

You can stop carping anytime now. You'd still be able to make your point without attempting condescension.

[Chuckg]

> Firewing, due to the special effects of his Damage Shield

> isn't going to suffer any damage by those missiles from the

> writeup in TUV.

 

Now you're making up your own rules. Damage Shields don't protect against damage.

 

He could try using the Force Wall to stand-off, but that requires /him/ to make one bodacious PER roll to see the missile coming... which, given that it was several /hundred/ hexes away from him just one Phase ago, would be a very lucky thing for Firewing.

 

> Sigh all you want to, LL asked for someone to compare a

> Worldbeater from the Book and the vehicles from TUV. I did

> that and I bothered to look it up and consider several

> factors.

 

... and ignore several more -- as per TUV. You ignored most of the plane's weapons suite, you ignored the rules about PER rolls, and you ignored the rules about how to design an effective NC Move-Through engine.

 

> You haven't. Your "real-word" experience is of limited

> usefulness in this endeavor to compare two published

> writeups. [snip]

 

I didn't even need "real-world" experience for this one, simply the common sense God gave the basic garden slug.

 

In your matchup, you deliberately had the pilot make almost every wrong tactical choice possible, so as to give Firewing an easy win. That's the truth, and no amount of sneering as to how skilled a researcher you allegedly are can disguise it.

[Chuckg]

BTW, according to pg. 229-230 of the BBB, an airborne and blazing Firewing -- as an "extremely high-contrast moving" object -- can usually be spotted /without/ needing a PER roll. And that's just if we're talking about the Mark-One Eyeball.

 

Which, again, proves that the rules have more common sense that some people are admitting. You don't have to make a PER roll to spot a bonfire in the middle of a clear sky, any more than you'd have to make one to spot an elephant in your living room.

 

Edit -- especially since you're just trying to spot if he's over there /somewhere/, and not trying to localize exactly which hex he's in.

 

BTW, before you go on about 'TUV capabilities only', go check the rule -- in TUV -- about Vehicles and PER rolls. HInt -- the pilot gets his senses as well as the vehicle's.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Firewing, due to the special effects of his Damage Shield

> isn't going to suffer any damage by those missiles from the

> writeup in TUV.

 

Now you're making up your own rules. Damage Shields don't protect against damage.

 

He could try using the Force Wall to stand-off, but that requires /him/ to make one bodacious PER roll to see the missile coming... which, given that it was several /hundred/ hexes away from him just one Phase ago, would be a very lucky thing for Firewing.

 

> Sigh all you want to, LL asked for someone to compare a

> Worldbeater from the Book and the vehicles from TUV. I did

> that and I bothered to look it up and consider several

> factors.

 

... and ignore several more -- as per TUV. You ignored most of the plane's weapons suite, you ignored the rules about PER rolls, and you ignored the rules about how to design an effective NC Move-Through engine.

 

> You haven't. Your "real-word" experience is of limited

> usefulness in this endeavor to compare two published

> writeups. [snip]

 

I didn't even need "real-world" experience for this one, simply the common sense God gave the basic garden slug.

 

In your matchup, you deliberately had the pilot make almost every wrong tactical choice possible, so as to give Firewing an easy win. That's the truth, and no amount of sneering as to how skilled a researcher you allegedly are can disguise it.

The Damage Shield is linked to the Force Wall. The missiles should explode or be destroyed at that point, not the hex Firewing is in. And I think it is a safe bet that Firewing has enough of a clue that he knows missiles are going to be fired at him.

 

I didn't ignore rules afaik. You are ignoring elements of my post. What perception rules or weapons suites did I ignore?

 

Given that Firewing can knock missiles out of the air rather easily, I didn't ignore the pilot's option of firing missiles and staying far from Firewing. It is my argument that the missiles would not achieve the desired result and the pilot would be forced to a more intimate engagement of Firewing or simply allow Firewing to do whatever it was he was trying to do.

 

As many crass responses with excessive sarcasm, distortion, and hostitility as you have posted, I have to say this: You CONTINUE to behave like an ass. Your personal dislike for me does not excuse your constant hostility toward any of my responses.

[Lord Liaden]

Chuckg, Agent X: thanks for the observations. I appreciate your insights, and the fact that they're coming from different perspectives which allows me to compare and contrast between your opinions.

 

I am saddened, though, that I've created yet another thread that seems to promote personal conflict between my board colleagues. And it isn't even political.