Can Worldbeaters beat the military?

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by lemming

Ok, I read your response about the delay being a course correction special effect. However, I'm going to give an actual brain the advantage here.

 

If this were true, then IRL pilots could dodge incoming missiles with last-minute jinking just as easily as Firewing allegedly could... after all, the enemy fighters are also being piloted by actual living brains, not simple homing circuits.

 

And yet, that doesn't work even in "Top Gun", much less actual dogfighting. We don't spend half a million bucks per seeker warhead for the thing to be defeated by a simple twitch of your joystick.

 

(The rare occasions when such a missile /does/ miss can be taken into account by the think having a 14- chance to hit, not an 18- chance.)

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

He's done it at least one in canon -- see 'Firewing at GATEWAY space station', UNTIL sourcebook.

Don't have it yet but, okay, he flew right up the first time he came to the planet. Now, he's wanted for mass destruction, etc. - I think he knows he's going to get a hostile response from authorities.

[Metaphysician]

Odd, I'd think that entirely passing through a damaging effect would automatically detonate the warhead prematurely. If I were adjudicating, I'd probably go with that for missiles and attacks of roughly the same size ( as opposed to being hit by a pencil-thin laser beam, for example ). Thats just my two cents, though.

 

As for maneuvering: are there any existing rules that would increase the difficulty of a move-through on a hex thats itself moving and dodging??

[Metaphysician]

Originally posted by Chuckg

If this were true, then IRL pilots could dodge incoming missiles with last-minute jinking just as easily as Firewing allegedly could... after all, the enemy fighters are also being piloted by actual living brains, not simple homing circuits.

 

And yet, that doesn't work even in "Top Gun", much less actual dogfighting. We don't spend half a million bucks per seeker warhead for the thing to be defeated by a simple twitch of your joystick.

 

(The rare occasions when such a missile /does/ miss can be taken into account by the think having a 14- chance to hit, not an 18- chance.)

 

OTOH, we could definitely use a way to determine whether a given flier is more maneuverable than a fighter aircraft.

 

What are the rules for establishing the lock in the first place??

[Chuckg]

> Don't have it yet but

 

... didn't stop you from making a definite statement about it anyway.

 

Don't you ever get tired of not knowing what you're talking about before you talk about it?

 

> okay, he flew right up the first time

> he came to the planet.

 

*bzzzzzzzt*

 

Wrong answer. I didn't say that, and that's not how it happened.

 

Firewing flew on up for a friendly chat well after he'd been established on Earth for a while.

 

"In early 2003, Firewing visited the satellite under his own power and rested for several hours on one of the struts. Rather than attempting to arrest him, Commander Currie went out in a suit to join him, and the two spoke for nearly an hour about space travel, aliens, and professional sports before Firewing left peacefully."

 

-- page 122, UNTIL sourcebook

 

Yet *again*, you go around shooting off your mouth having opinions and making claims about things you know nothing about.

 

It's futile, it's wrong, and it's enormously annoying. Learn another way.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> You didn't catch the "or" in there?

 

I did -- but since I explicitly cited the rule that says that even simple Vehicles may hold their actions, your point that missiles cannot delay is alerady proven wrong.

 

So leaving out the 'or' did precisely jack and squat to misrepresent your argument... said argument was DOA to begin with.

It absolutely misrepresented my statement. You essentially accused me of ignoring your previous remarks and putting words in your mouth. I didn't.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

[snip]

> Are you saying the missiles always hold their action? Is that

> part of their programming?

 

I am saying that any reasonable portrayal of a homing missile is "you move, then missile moves". It's supposed to be mindlessly following you, after all. To follow implies to wait and see where you're going first.

 

So yes, I would say that the missile always holds its action until after it's target has taken one... or it's next action is about to come up, whichever comes first.

In movies, they are always showing missiles being outmaneuvered by daring pilots and the like. Seems like they've done this in comics too. I don't think I would have the missiles hold actions. It seems to violate every action style genre I've seen.

[Chuckg]

> OTOH, we could definitely use a way to determine whether

> a given flier is more maneuverable than a fighter aircraft.

 

Well, Firewing's more maneuverable, but he's also enormously slower... balances out, really.

 

> What are the rules for establishing the lock in the first

> place??

 

The missile must make a simple PER roll with a Targeting Sense.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> It doesn't *enter* the same hex. It detonates at the hexside

> before it gets in.

 

Actually, it takes an average of 7 BODY worth of damage...

 

... vs. the missile's 2 DEF and 10 BODY...

 

... hmmm. Hasn't lost all its body yet. That means we have to use the Vehicle Damage Table on page 322 of the BBB.

 

You have a 1-in-six chance of disabling the warhead... the "lose largest Power" result. Anything else won't save you, as the missile's already reached Firewing.

 

Of course that assumes no knockback, as even a single inch of knockback would mean that the missile explodes outside the hex. And with only 2d6 subtracted for aerial targets, that's a very decent chance that the missile will be knocked off course.

 

And that's assuming that you don't simply rule that the missile gets exploded when it hits the FW.

[Metaphysician]

Firewing strikes me as the type of villain that gets a little leeway, mostly because trying to capture him would probably result in at least as much collateral damage as him fighting various supers, if not more. Just not worth it, for the authorities, when you have VIPER, Mechanon, and the Crowns of Krim to deal with.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> They have teamwork skill? The pilots and the missiles?

 

The pilots, yes -- the missiles, no.

 

*nods*

 

This, Agent X, is how you get a polite answer from me -- when you make a valid point without any unnecessary excess.

 

All right. Two missiles arriving at once will clock Firewing for an average of 60-some Stun, but /not/ CON Stun him.

 

OTOH, given that he's only got 80 STUN, he's not feeling very well... and the next hit he takes from anywhere is going to floor him.

 

And if the pilot chose to lead off with a /four/ missile salvo... or two each from two planes... well, sucks to be Firewing.

Since I'm from the school that says Firewing is prepared and ready, I'm thinking the missiles hit his force wall and detonate harmlessly one hex away.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Chuckg

If this were true, then IRL pilots could dodge incoming missiles with last-minute jinking just as easily as Firewing allegedly could... after all, the enemy fighters are also being piloted by actual living brains, not simple homing circuits.

 

And yet, that doesn't work even in "Top Gun", much less actual dogfighting. We don't spend half a million bucks per seeker warhead for the thing to be defeated by a simple twitch of your joystick.

Planes have a lot fewer options for moving out of the way. I've already stated my preferances for how things work in my game, in your game it works differently.

[Chuckg]

> It absolutely misrepresented my statement.

 

Not at all. You made a point about missiles 'stopping in mid-air', and I had never even hinted at such a thing. So when I objected to that, that's not mispresentation... at least, not by *me*.

 

[snip]

> In movies, they are always showing missiles being

> outmaneuvered by daring pilots and the like.

 

"Top Gun" wasn't a movie? In that, we see daring pilots getting slammed with air-to-air missiles all the time... all the daring maneuvering is them using Vehicle Evade maneuvers to try and keep the radar lock-on from being established in the first place. Once the opposing pilot gets tone, it's all over and only a miracle saves 'em.

 

Dude, even the action movie genre does not support you here, much less real life. Unless somebody wants to claim that 'Top Gun' is *not* the archetypical action movie about fighters and fighter pilots.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

Um, I said *Mechanon* could use such a slot on his multipower.

Cool, crossed that up with Chuckg's statements about using the no range rkas as missiles.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg

If this were true, then IRL pilots could dodge incoming missiles with last-minute jinking just as easily as Firewing allegedly could... after all, the enemy fighters are also being piloted by actual living brains, not simple homing circuits.

 

And yet, that doesn't work even in "Top Gun", much less actual dogfighting. We don't spend half a million bucks per seeker warhead for the thing to be defeated by a simple twitch of your joystick.

 

(The rare occasions when such a missile /does/ miss can be taken into account by the think having a 14- chance to hit, not an 18- chance.)

 

IRL, the pilots can't hold their actions, are moving at noncombat speeds, and have *horrendous* turn mods. Their planes don't have nearly the same maneuverability as Firewing has, and reaction time isn't even close.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by lemming

I had this vision of a Warner Brother's cartoon.

 

Ok, I read your response about the delay being a course correction special effect. However, I'm going to give an actual brain the advantage here.

Me too.

[Chuckg]

> Of course that assumes no knockback, as even a single inch

> of knockback would mean that the missile explodes outside

> the hex. [snip]

 

I might not get Move-Through damage for all the NC movement it's doing, but I damn sure still get the Knockback Resistance.

 

The thing's flying straight at you at Mach 1+, fer gossake... a simple 2d6 RKA isn't going to stop /that/ much momentum dead.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> It depends on your philosophy.

 

Actually, it "depends" on virtually every officer-training Package Deal I've seen written up in Champions products.

 

Furthermore, even without that, it would not depend on my philosophy -- it would depend upon how extensive military training actually was, which is an objective fact, not a personal taste.

 

> Does *every* officer in your world have the full 3 pt tactics

> skill, or is that reserved for exceptional officers and leaders?

 

No, every single one of them gets the basic 11 or 12-... the exceptions are those who somehow managed to scrape through the course without actually learning the material they were supposed to.

 

Even a junior company-grade officer has to make command decisions, and rather complicated ones. The thoroughness and comprehensiveness of military training is often underestimated... hell, the average squad leader nowadays is exposed to an education of tactical concepts at the platoon and company levels, just so he can understand WTF his superiors are supposed to be doing well enough to allow him to intelligently exercise his own initiative in fluid circumstances!

 

And that's for *infantrymen*. Pilots have a *much* higher training budget, and are expected to execute a much higher degree of Thinking It Through than infantrymen... and at approximately twenty million dollars per aircraft, you can easily see why.

 

[snip]

> But is the FW transparent to Radar? That is the key

> question. I don't think it is since it is perceivable by radar.

 

The base power construction of Radar is "Detect Physical Objects" -- page 106, Big Black Book.

 

A Transparent To Physical Force Wall is not a Physical Object. (A normal Force Wall, since it does have tangible substance, would be a physical object.)

 

Q.E.D.

 

[snip]

> It doesn't *enter* the same hex. It detonates at the hexside

> before it gets in.

 

Actually, it takes an average of 7 BODY worth of damage...

 

... vs. the missile's 2 DEF and 10 BODY...

 

... hmmm. Hasn't lost all its body yet. That means we have to use the Vehicle Damage Table on page 322 of the BBB.

 

You have a 1-in-six chance of disabling the warhead... the "lose largest Power" result. Anything else won't save you, as the missile's already reached Firewing.

I'm thinking with the sfx of the damage shield and the missile's guidance system and explosives that the missile goes boom.

[Chuckg]

> IRL, the pilots can't hold their actions,

 

Yes they can.

 

> are moving at noncombat speeds, [snip]

 

But not relative to the missile.

 

I already cited this rule once -- why did no one pay attention?

 

If two targets are moving along at NC velocities, but have little or no relative velocity towards each other, then they affect each other normally.

 

Re: the "horrendous turn modes" -- irrelevant. If simply moving one or two hexes to the side made the missile scream right past you... even the most horrendous turn mode can manage at least /some/ position shift.

[Chuckg]

> I'm thinking with the sfx of the damage shield

 

Yup -- it's a fire.

 

> and the missile's guidance system and explosives that the

> missile goes boom.

 

Wrong again.

 

Firewing's Damage Shield is a 2d6 RKA.

 

So's a jet engine exhaust. Look it up.

 

And these thing are *DESIGNED* to fly up the exhausts of enemy fighters.

 

Think about it.

 

 

Edit -- not to mention that this whole thing you just tried is another example of 'Damn, the rules say I lose. Time to ignore the rules and make a GM call that just happens to favor me massively.'

[lemming]

Originally posted by Metaphysician

Odd, I'd think that entirely passing through a damaging effect would automatically detonate the warhead prematurely.

 

As for maneuvering: are there any existing rules that would increase the difficulty of a move-through on a hex thats itself moving and dodging??

Point one: I agree.

 

On the question. I believe that against one hex accurate attacks, the target can increase the DCV with dodges and maybe levels. I don't remember the ruling, I just remember there is one.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Don't have it yet but

 

... didn't stop you from making a definite statement about it anyway.

 

Don't you ever get tired of not knowing what you're talking about before you talk about it?

 

> okay, he flew right up the first time

> he came to the planet.

 

*bzzzzzzzt*

 

Wrong answer. I didn't say that, and that's not how it happened.

 

Firewing flew on up for a friendly chat well after he'd been established on Earth for a while.

 

 

 

Yet *again*, you go around shooting off your mouth having opinions and making claims about things you know nothing about.

 

It's futile, it's wrong, and it's enormously annoying. Learn another way.

Cut down on the caffeine.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Actually, even if both hit and aren't blocked by the FW,

> that's only 21 stun on average each or 42 net stun.

 

Or 84 net STUN on a four-missile salvo.. and each F-18 carries 10 AMRAAMs.

 

That's of course assuming that all 4 hit, that none are detonated by the FW, and that none of them are shot out of the air by the explosion before they arrive. And since they all arrive at the same time, one explosion will take out all 4.

[Chuckg]

The ruling is in the descrpition of Accurate itself, and yes, the target can indeed increase the difficulty with levels.

 

Which in Firewing's case reduces the attack probabilty to... hmmm... 12-, as he has only 2 Overall Levels he can contribute.

 

9- if he Dodges.

 

Of course, if he Dodges... he's forfeited his next action...

 

... *WHAM*

 

So the Force Wall wasn't repositioned by the time the next salvo of 4 arrived.

 

 

Edit -- and have we forgotten that we were talking about the surprise round?

[Chuckg]

> That's of course assuming that all 4 hit, that none are

> detonated by the FW, and that none of them are shot out

> of the air by the explosion before they arrive.

 

And /all/ of the above require Firewing to have advance warning of the attack -- not just that it might happen at some time in the next several minutes, but of exactly when and where it will arrive from.

 

He will not have that warning.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Agent X

Cut down on the caffeine.

 

"Wow, if I make a 'witty' one-liner, maybe nobody will notice that I completely shot my mouth off about something I had no clue about and got proven wrong! Yet again!"

 

Feh. If you can't say anything knowledgable, don't say anything.