Can Worldbeaters beat the military?

[Chuckg]

> What does Dr Destroyer's Lack of Weakness apply to? Is it

> his normal PD? Is it his resistant PD? His special defenses?

> Look at the rules for Lack of Weakness and then look at

> Destroyer's writeup. Look at anybody's writeup. I'd

> really like to know your thoughts.

 

Yes, you would, because it completely changes the subject and leaves you not having to answer inconvenient questions.

 

BTW, it obviously applies to his Resistant Defenses, because it wouldn't apply to the Mental Def or Power Def unless specifically stated.

 

> Common sense? Game balance?

 

Yes, two things that you've been deliberately avoiding this entire thread.

 

> A 20D6 RKA nuclear weapon isn't game balanced.

 

Nuclear weapons aren't game balanced *period*. That's why they're nukes.

 

BTW, you do realize that the 'destroys the planet' only works if you twist the rules and ignore the supplemental rules the game designer wrote to address this very issue. IOW, it's bullshit, and all your fault and none of Steve's.

 

> At least its better than his 4th Edition writeup for a nuke. I

> know what nukes do when the blow up (two of my best

> friends shoot those suckers off/work on them for the

> Navy). [snip]

 

That's nice... I used to /be/ in nuclear power plant trianing for the Navy. And as far as *I* know, we haven't shot off a nuclear test in *decades*. Try *AGAIN*.

 

The 20d6 RKA MegaScale AoE approximates it well enough for most game purposes, and if the DM doesn't like the effects, he can change it to taste.

 

This is not freaking Warcraft III. The system is flexible precisely because it /does/ allow DM discretion.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Gary

You can use the same reasoning with a brick wall (5 def 3 body). A bodybuilder with a greataxe haymakering would do 6 excess body or 64 hexes worth of brick wall taken out on average per hit. An above average roll might be 1024 hexes. I don't think it's too likely that a man with an axe can take out entire apartment complexes per hit.

 

Examples such as this is why we have the Real Weapon limitation, and why a DU shell isn't going to take out an entire building, or a greataxe take out an apartment complex per hit.

 

That's true. There are uses for "real weapon". I've got my own system for regulating how much damage a great axe can do (if it were to ever come up). However, I don't want to become completely reliant on using "real weapon" to counter what I see as a game of runaway dice.

 

I can see a guy with a huge hammer swinging and knocking down a large chunk of wall. That's got a Conan-style feel to it, and I'm okay with it.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Champsguy

That's true. There are uses for "real weapon". I've got my own system for regulating how much damage a great axe can do (if it were to ever come up). However, I don't want to become completely reliant on using "real weapon" to counter what I see as a game of runaway dice.

 

I can see a guy with a huge hammer swinging and knocking down a large chunk of wall. That's got a Conan-style feel to it, and I'm okay with it.

 

Yeah, I can see a Conan type taking out a hex at a time. But not anything more unless there was a major structural flaw in the wall.

 

However, you have to use common sense as well even without the Real Weapon limitation. A person with claws defined as a 4d6 HKA will not be wiping out 64 hexes of brick wall at a time. An energy projector throwing out a 4d6 lightning RKA won't either. The doubling damage per +1 body only applies if it's cinematically appropriate.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> What does Dr Destroyer's Lack of Weakness apply to? Is it

> his normal PD? Is it his resistant PD? His special defenses?

> Look at the rules for Lack of Weakness and then look at

> Destroyer's writeup. Look at anybody's writeup. I'd

> really like to know your thoughts.

 

Yes, you would, because it completely changes the subject and leaves you not having to answer inconvenient questions.

 

BTW, it obviously applies to his Resistant Defenses, because it wouldn't apply to the Mental Def or Power Def unless specifically stated.

 

That's my point. Nobody has Lack of Weakness for their special defenses, not that I've found. Make of that what you will.

 

> Common sense? Game balance?

 

Yes, two things that you've been deliberately avoiding this entire thread.

 

> A 20D6 RKA nuclear weapon isn't game balanced.

 

Nuclear weapons aren't game balanced *period*. That's why they're nukes.

 

Nukes mean dick in Marvel and DC. Superman survives nukes. Thor survives nukes. Firelord and the Silver Surfer survive nukes. Maybe you don't want to play characters of that power level, but I do. DC Heroes RPG had a perfect system for scaling Superman, Batman, and an atom bomb. Champions can do it too, as long as you've got some semblance of scale. Nukes can be survivable by high-level characters, without making them utterly untouchable by everyone else.

 

BTW, you do realize that the 'destroys the planet' only works if you twist the rules and ignore the supplemental rules the game designer wrote to address this very issue. IOW, it's bullshit, and all your fault and none of Steve's.

 

I'm not twisting the rules at all. I'm looking at the rules for breaking things. I've looked at the supplemental materials and found them wanting. I saw them make alterations to a power in the UNTIL book (they altered the cost on Change Environment from what it is in the book). I shouldn't need supplemental materials, especially when they make changes to the rules. I've said before and I'll say again, most people on this board have a better understanding of the rules than Steve Long does.

 

Steve Long is also not the game designer. He may run the company. He may publish the books. But George MacDonald and Steve Peterson are the game designers (and Rob Bell, but I believe he's off in Virginia somewhere being a state senator, and doesn't want to be associated with RPGs).

 

> At least its better than his 4th Edition writeup for a nuke. I

> know what nukes do when the blow up (two of my best

> friends shoot those suckers off/work on them for the

> Navy). [snip]

 

That's nice... I used to /be/ in nuclear power plant trianing for the Navy. And as far as *I* know, we haven't shot off a nuclear test in *decades*. Try *AGAIN*.

 

They don't test them. One works on a reactor, and the other tells the missiles where to go when we kill people. Yes, I know that we haven't used them in a long time, but that doesn't mean their data is any less accurate. Both know lots about the size of the explosions, and the exact effects. Both play Champions, too. And both have said that 20D6 is too big.

 

The 20d6 RKA MegaScale AoE approximates it well enough for most game purposes, and if the DM doesn't like the effects, he can change it to taste.

 

This is not freaking Warcraft III. The system is flexible precisely because it /does/ allow DM discretion.

 

Don't play Warcraft 3.

 

Hey, you can use a 20D6 RKA if you want. I'm not stopping you. I'm just saying to be aware that Long's writeups aren't scaled to anything except what he felt like that morning.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Gary

Yeah, I can see a Conan type taking out a hex at a time. But not anything more unless there was a major structural flaw in the wall.

 

However, you have to use common sense as well even without the Real Weapon limitation. A person with claws defined as a 4d6 HKA will not be wiping out 64 hexes of brick wall at a time. An energy projector throwing out a 4d6 lightning RKA won't either. The doubling damage per +1 body only applies if it's cinematically appropriate.

 

I'm okay with players doing that with powers. If Angry Guy cuts loose with his 4D6 HKA razor claws and scores 20 Body, I'll let him tear a huge chunk of the wall out. Likewise for Electric Lad. After all, those are super powers. I just think a little more care should be taken when designing things that have real world equivalents. You should get as close as possible without fudging things. I mean, anybody can say "The Death Star does a 1,000 D6 RKA!" I want the guys publishing the game to give me a better number than that.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Champsguy

I'm okay with players doing that with powers. If Angry Guy cuts loose with his 4D6 HKA razor claws and scores 20 Body, I'll let him tear a huge chunk of the wall out. Likewise for Electric Lad. After all, those are super powers. I just think a little more care should be taken when designing things that have real world equivalents. You should get as close as possible without fudging things. I mean, anybody can say "The Death Star does a 1,000 D6 RKA!" I want the guys publishing the game to give me a better number than that.

 

A huge chunk means 1 hex, not 64 hexes or 4096 hexes with the 20 body attack. One hex is already 2 meters of brick wall taken out. 8.192 km of brick wall taken out in one shot by claws is simply ridiculous even in comic book terms.

 

What do you mean by "better" numbers? Everything is already a judgement call. A 2000 joule assault rifle bullet does the same damage as a 150 joule heavy longbow arrow (2d6 RKA). And how do you reconcile a 13d6 killing nuke with a 30 body Captain America as you've suggested previously? Both can't be accurate, or else Cap without his shield, would easily survive Ground Zero as long as he had immediate medical attention. Especially if you give Cap a couple levels of Combat Luck.

[Pattern Ghost]

The bullet vs. arrow thing is b/c joules of energy aren't the soul, or even most important, determinants of damage. Permanent wound channel is more what I'd say that's based on, if you're using broadheads. (I think there was a whole thread on this a while back, several months.)

 

Anyway....

 

All Hail the Munchkin King! Long time, no see Champsguy.

[megaplayboy]

well, if a 2d6 RKA bow is, let's say, a 50+kg pull, that's more like 500 joules(or more). And then you have the fudge factor for wound channel, etc.

 

They worked just fine for penetrating plate mail:)

[Gary]

Originally posted by megaplayboy

well, if a 2d6 RKA bow is, let's say, a 50+kg pull, that's more like 500 joules(or more). And then you have the fudge factor for wound channel, etc.

 

They worked just fine for penetrating plate mail:)

 

Nope, it's significantly less than 200 joules. I searched a lot of websites to determine this.

 

Anyway, my point is that there is no objective way of determining damage. Everything has to be fudged and judgement calls made.

 

Even then you'll get oddities. An assault rifle bullet should be much better at penetrating a brick wall than an arrow because of the joules, but in game terms they're equal.

 

Incidentally, well made plate armor would deflect longbow arrows with no problems.

[Pattern Ghost]

The bullet has better sectional density.

 

So, should be better vs. walls. Of course, the game doesn't have much of a mechanic for drilling through walls (i.e., hitting a wall and the round carrying through) vs. damaging them.

 

Plate has to be pretty much hit at a ninety degree angle to be penetrated by arrow fire, but it is possible. That's why the Ruffles ridges on Maximillian and some other plate.

[megaplayboy]

Originally posted by Gary

Nope, it's significantly less than 200 joules. I searched a lot of websites to determine this.

 

Anyway, my point is that there is no objective way of determining damage. Everything has to be fudged and judgement calls made.

 

Even then you'll get oddities. An assault rifle bullet should be much better at penetrating a brick wall than an arrow because of the joules, but in game terms they're equal.

 

Incidentally, well made plate armor would deflect longbow arrows with no problems.

 

I guess I was thinking of modern compound bows with 150 or 200lb pull to them. Those can drive an aluminum shaft through a wall.

[Argus]

I Wasn't Going to Post On This.

 

But I just have one thing to say.

 

A-10A-Thunderbolt II.

 

Anything in front of it is Dead.

 

A.

[Metaphysician]

Yep, the Avenger cannon is *sick*. Forget killing tanks, you could kill a cruiser with that thing.

[Avatar]

Oh how I miss those Braincells

 

I have now officially read this entire thread. Here are my comments, take tham as you will.

 

Champsguy: 1) get some theraphy for your Long problem. I know you said you don't really have a problem with the guy, but the way he pops up in almost every other post of yours in this thread, I really belive if he looked in his hedges your eyes would be staring back.

2) I fully understand that gamers at times want reality to have some effect in their game, but also remember it is a game. If YOU feel that stated information for certain things are incorrect or too low/high, then change them. Its a GAME system, and as such cannot directly represent real life.

 

Chuck : I understand your approach to adapting realism and real-world info into the game, and without any other info then what I've read here, you do seem very knowledgeable. But you did instigate some of Champsguy animosity. The sarcasm was thinly veiled at times, and was not needed.

 

Please, when such debates nust happen between we gamers, could it be kept to PM's or emails. Just trying to find the nuggets of thread related info took me most of a night. and to take me own advice, I will now be thread related.

 

 

I say a mid level group of supers should win out against the military, mostly because it is a super hero game. If the plot requires a hard fight, beef it up some. If the players outthink the GM, give them the profs for doing so. Our ganes started at the 180 range, and us old timers just hit 340. I think we would have a tussle with a prepared military force, but would win out in the end.

 

 

Peace.

[Chuckg]

Avatar -- thanks for the comments.

 

re: the sarcasm... well, I'm /not/ that sarcastic /all/ the time, as has been made quite obvious just over the past week, much less the past few months. So if I /am/ being sarcastic, then that's because I'm trying to get a message across to the guy I'm talking to.

[TheRealVector]

Can Worldbeaters Beat The Military??

 

Let's see...Worldbeaters by definition must be able to do what?

Ah, BEAT the world, or at least give it a good fight.

The world has many nations which each, to varying degrees, have militaries.

Therefore, Worldbeaters can beat the military. If they cannot then they are mislabled as "Worldbeaters".

 

If one is willing to accept the vehicle and weapon write-ups in TUV and other Champion books as "official" for their campaign, then any true worldbeaters will have to be able to overcome a military so equiped. Apparently, this can have all sorts of undesired implications for game balance and "realism".

 

I agree with a number of posters that the current write-ups for weapons and vehicle seem overpowered. If the military can deal with all these supervillians, then why are all those superheroes getting in the way? A campaign world where superheroes aren't needed sounds a little anti-climantic.

[Lord Liaden]

This one's a bit long

 

Re: Overpowered Weapons. I've had the suspicion for some time (which I can't substantiate with any citeable sources) than the apparent escalation in weapon damage capability in new Hero Games books is partly to allow modern heavy weapons to be as instantly lethal to characters in the game as they are in real life. After all, thanks to the "negative Body" rule even a normal human in HERO can often survive more damage than a brick wall. I know some HERO gamers have developed their own "instant kill" house rules to deal with this perceived problem, and I'm no exception. I'll mention mine, but as part of the broader discussion:

 

I'll admit to my personal biases - I want to sometimes play in high-powered games where the superheroes and villains are a match for anything modern technology (as opposed to comic-book supertech) can throw at them. I'd also like to be able to do that without substantially rewriting all the characters, weapons, vehicles etc. that are already available, and which I enjoy using in my games. Lately I've been experimenting with a few house rules to try to allow for this without otherwise changing how the supers themselves match up against each other, and early results seem promising. In no particular order:

 

Real Weapon Limitation. I know this has come up before as a potential factor, but I like others find it a little too undefined. I've been trying to give this Limitation some precise parameters. I've taken inspiration from the Force Wall Power, in which no damage gets through until the Wall goes down. What I've ruled is that for weapons built with the Real Weapon Limitation, if they're unable to do any BODY damage to a target with their largest possible roll, the target takes no STUN damage either, no matter how good the STUN roll is. The weapon doesn't have to actually do BODY on a particular roll, just be capable of it. I've allowed Armor Piercing to factor into the weapon's damage capability, but not Penetrating, and no Penetrating damage is done in this case.

 

In practice this allows characters with 12 Resistant Defense or more to walk through hails of common bullets (usually 2D6 RKA or less) without harm, a common convention for comic bricks. "Street level" heroes normally have less Res. Def. than this, so can still be harmed by guns normally. Once you get into Mechanon's Defense range, most of the Heavy Weapons written up in FREd (Stingers, LAW etc.) won't do much either. (I do keep Knockback for such weapons, though - that's also in-genre, and I just think it looks cool.) I think this makes superheroes a more necessary response option to superpowered threats. It also provides an explanation as to why all those costumed agency goons are running around with high-tech blasters instead of assault rifles.

 

Haymakers: For those unfamiliar with 4E HERO System, Haymakers used to work differently than they do now. They multiplied damage from an attack by x1.5, whatever the size of the attack. Although I don't think it was ever explicity stated in the rules, most people pro-rated any Advantages on the attack for Haymakers. The maneuver was also only allowed for hand-to-hand combat.

 

For high-powered games I've been allowing my players to choose whether a given attack will use the 4E or 5E Haymaker rules when they build it for their characters, both HTH and Ranged. In most cases the new rules are more effective up to DC 8 attacks, but beyond that the old rule usually generates more damage, unless the attack is heavily Advantaged. For campaigns built around Standard Superhero levels the change is fairly minor, e.g. for DC 60 attacks the Haymaker goes from DC 16 to DC 18; but that can often mean the difference between doing BODY damage to a target or not. For the heavyweights, though, the change can be quite substantial. Firewing's 20D6 Energy Blast, for example, goes from doing 24D6 to 30.

 

Because of the inherent restrictions on Haymakers, I'm finding that this change hasn't affected combat between supers very much (although it helps for characters with Ranged attacks to show some signs that they're gathering themselves for a massive blow, like Dragonball Z fighters, so that defenders have warning of what to prepare for). But if you need to smash through a bank vault door to reach someone trapped inside (or just grab the cash), or a tank has stopped moving or has been immobilized and you want to bust it up, this could be just the ticket. I do want to playtest this some more, though.

 

Instant Kills: This is really to represent attacks that should by rights be instantly lethal to normal people, but not necessarily to superheroes even if their Defenses are not epic. My own house rule is that if a character takes BODY Damage equal to or greater than his starting BODY score from a single attack, he has to roll his CON or die immediately. When dealing with mooks and the like I find it simpler to just assume they fail their CON roll, but supers with their higher Constitutions will make it more often than not, and with their higher BODY totals rarely even need to roll at all. It's not something I bring into play often, but when dealing with high-powered characters it sometimes makes sense, and it definitely raises the threat level of those characters against normal combatants.

 

Well, those are the ideas I've been playing with. I'd welcome any other ideas you might have, or comments on these, pro or con.

[Chuckg]

I don't agree with your 'Overpowered Weapons' rule, and I never liked 4e Haymakers, but I do like your idea under 'Real Weapons' and 'Instant Kill'.

[Guest Champsguy]

Crap. My computer is being twitchy today. I had post ready to reply, and it went away. So if I make some strange leaps in logic in this post, it's because I've already written it out once, and may forget to include something the second time.

 

 

Originally posted by Gary

A huge chunk means 1 hex, not 64 hexes or 4096 hexes with the 20 body attack. One hex is already 2 meters of brick wall taken out. 8.192 km of brick wall taken out in one shot by claws is simply ridiculous even in comic book terms.

 

I might apply some sort of limit to an extremely high roll. My problem with the nuke, however, is not that you could fluke out and roll high (you could do the same with a 13D6 RKA as well). It's the fact that even an average roll gives you 70 Body or so.

 

My point isn't that a nuclear bomb should blow up a continent. I know they can't do that (at least, not the ones we're using now--maybe in a hundred years). My point is that a 20D6 RKA does much more damage to the surroundings than a nuke would. Thus, a nuke should be less. If I had a space ship with a "Death Beam" that was a 20D6 RKA, then nobody would have a problem with it vaping France.

 

 

What do you mean by "better" numbers? Everything is already a judgement call. A 2000 joule assault rifle bullet does the same damage as a 150 joule heavy longbow arrow (2d6 RKA). And how do you reconcile a 13d6 killing nuke with a 30 body Captain America as you've suggested previously? Both can't be accurate, or else Cap without his shield, would easily survive Ground Zero as long as he had immediate medical attention. Especially if you give Cap a couple levels of Combat Luck.

 

Okay, I've got several different answers here, so bear with me.

 

#1: "Better numbers" means more in keeping with the game system. As I showed earlier, a 25D6 RKA (that's 75 Damage Classes) will on average, do enough Body in one shot to blow the Earth to pieces (actually, it has to roll one Body higher than average--average being 88, with it needing 89--but this is close enough for government work). That's a 375 Active Point attack. I'm not sure if people are realizing exactly how powerful an attack like that is. So let's go to something a little easier to visualize. Let's talk about Strength.

 

If you take those 75 Damage Classes and put them into Str, and not RKA, you get a 375 Str. You can push that to a 385. You know what a 385 lets you lift? You'd better have some Flight, or a place to stand, because it'll let you lift the Earth. Yep. The Earth weighs 77 APs in DC Heroes, and a 385 will lift it in Champions (I checked the DCH math once, and found they were correct on the weight of the Earth, but I'm not gonna go look it up again right now). Now, if somebody can lift the Earth, it makes sense to me that a punch or two from them should be able to blow it up good. Now, truthfully, the math you use to arrive at each (how much Str needed to lift the Earth, and how many dice to blow it up), are arrived at seperately. They just happen to coincide. I do think, however, that it's telling to see exactly what a 375 Active Point power can do.

 

So, when I say I want better numbers, I mean I want some that are more in keeping with the exponential system that Hero has always been.

 

#2: Captain America: Well, I've got two disclaimers first, and then two answers for you on this one. First, I wouldn't let Cap's Combat Luck apply to a nuke at ground zero. When that happens, it ain't your lucky day. Second, I don't think there will be anyone alive to give Cap his needed medical attention after the bomb goes off.

 

Okay, now for the reasons. I've got one meta-game reason, and one plot reason why it's okay for Cap to have 30 Body and still use a 13D6 RKA for a nuke.

 

But first, I'm posting this so I won't lose it. Don't trust computer today.

[Guest Champsguy]

Okay, now for Cap's survival.

 

The plot-line reason is that we all know Cap won't die. He's one of Marvel's flagship characters, and we all know he won't die, no matter what. If a nuke goes off in Cap's face? He isn't dead. If Hyperion goes crazy and takes a swipe at him at superspeed? He won't die. Giving him 30 Body just ensures that the Captain America in my game will be just like the one in the comic books. Cap's got plot-immunity, for better or for worse.

 

Alternate Universe Cap? Well, he can die, because it's just an alternate world. But the real Cap won't ever die, and everybody knows it.

 

Is that a cop-out? Maybe.

 

The second reason is the meta-game one (I've glimpsed Lord Liaden's post above that he made while I was typing the previous one, and I think he touched on this, but I didn't read it completely, so I'm not sure). People just don't die in Champions that easily. Quite simply, when you combine an exponential damage system with a linear hit-point system, this is what you get. People in Champions are unusually tough. A guy with even a 20 Body could get shot in the face by a 12 gauge shotgun and live. That's even if you're using the hit-locations. On average, the guy won't die. Champions isn't as bad as some others (Mechwarrior 2nd Edition, where you could shove a hand grenade down your pants, let it explode, and then laugh it off), but it's still a game where instant kills are so rare as to be non-existant.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Chuckg

I don't agree with your 'Overpowered Weapons' rule, and I never liked 4e Haymakers, but I do like your idea under 'Real Weapons' and 'Instant Kill'.

 

Thanks. If you try them out I'd enjoy hearing how they work for you.

 

But, um, I don't really have an "Overpowered Weapons rule" - I just made some observations sparked by some comments (recent and past) about the damage the newer writeups are dishing out. I'm personally not yet convinced that they really are overpowered, although they've definitely gone up under Steve Long's influence. My whole take was to find game play variations that would let supers keep up with them, without invalidating everything that's been written since 5E came out.

[Guest Champsguy]

Lord Liaden, I've just got to say: Bravo! We use the exact same "real weapon" limitation in our games. If the weapon can't do Body, then it can't do Stun either.

 

I'd considered altering Haymakers as well, but haven't got around to testing it yet. Your instant kill idea is also similar to one I thought about using (I think I read about it on the boards somewhere and was intrigued).

 

 

Now, as far as my house rules go, we decided that most NPCs died at 0 Body. Joe the barber doesn't get to go to -10 Body. He dies at 0. Unfortunately for Joe, we also decided that most people have an 8 Body. Important people (like DNPCs, villains, and player characters) use the regular rules.

 

We also have a house rule where you can lose Body from Stun damage. This allows bricks to bloody each others noses, even though they each have 30+ PD. For every 50 Stun you take past your defenses (Damage Reduction doesn't apply), you take a Body. So if you haul off and hit Grond for 90 Stun and 25 Body, he'll lose 50 Stun and 1 Body, even though he has 40 PD. It's rare to see a character lose more than one Body through this, unless it's a freakish roll on a big attack, or they're unconscious (and thus take double Stun). This makes it possible to beat somebody to death.

[Kintara]

I like this No Body/No Stun thing for Real Weapon, but then Real Weapon should, of course, be worth more, don'cha think? I mean, -1/2 seems more fair. I like this rule, so I was just curious if you change the value.

[Guest Champsguy]

Originally posted by Kintara

I like this No Body/No Stun thing for Real Weapon, but then Real Weapon should, of course, be worth more, don'cha think? I mean, -1/2 seems more fair. I like this rule, so I was just curious if you change the value.

 

I don't know about Lord Liaden, but it's never mattered in our games. After all, army soldiers don't pay points for their weapons.

 

It is not something that I'd have heroes put on their weapons. Even if Sharpshooter buys a 2D6+1 compound bow, I wouldn't have him put "real weapon" on it. He paid points for it, so the bow can do things that a normal bow wouldn't (including do Stun to somebody with 15 rPD).

[Metaphysician]

Re: Oh how I miss those Braincells

 

Originally posted by Avatar

I say a mid level group of supers should win out against the military, mostly because it is a super hero game. If the plot requires a hard fight, beef it up some. If the players outthink the GM, give them the profs for doing so. Our ganes started at the 180 range, and us old timers just hit 340. I think we would have a tussle with a prepared military force, but would win out in the end.

Peace.

 

Huh?? Are you saying your characters range from 140 to 340 points??