Can Worldbeaters beat the military?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Faster speed? 25" with 3-4 spd means 75-100" a turn.

 

With No Turn Mode, it can move at the NC multiplier and still jink like a bumblebee.

 

But of course it's still noncombat movement, not combat movement.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Firewing moves at 210" a turn, combat speed. And a dex of

> 15 or so hardly compares to 30 dex.

 

< i think you're the one starting to get obnoxious. Why do

< you discount dex and speed when it comes to

< maneuverability?

 

Because the missile does not care what DEX the target is.

 

1-hex Accurate. Accurate. *All* targets are the same DCV to it -- DCV 3. That is why I am "ignoring" Dex, and I am getitng very appalled at your consistent ignoring of this.

 

Fine, we'll go strictly by the rules as you seem to want. Therefore the 1" jink will automatically make the missile miss. And a 1" dive for cover will do so as well. And the missiles will be easy to perceive as they take their 2-3 phases moving in and will be shot down easily with the explosion, hitting all 4 incoming missiles since they all arrive at the same time according to the rules.

[Chuckg]

> Size modifiers are irrelevant?

 

When it still has a 14- chance to hit a man-sized object? Yeah, it doesn't really need the massive size mods to hit Firewing.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Size modifiers are irrelevant?

 

When it still has a 14- chance to hit a man-sized object? Yeah, it doesn't really need the massive size mods to hit Firewing.

And it's most likely going to hit the helicopter even if it misses its hex. That's why size is relevant.

[Chuckg]

> Fine, we'll go strictly by the rules as you seem to want.

> Therefore the 1" jink will automatically make the missile

> miss.

 

Ummm... no.

 

Move-Through or Move-By Attack on the guy's hex -- I might not get the damage, but given that it's a No Range RKA, I'm obviously using the Move-By rules.

 

And that means i simply make an attack roll... vs your current hex.

 

You are not 'jinking'. You've already moved. This is /my/ move now.

 

> And a 1" dive for cover will do so as well.

 

That works -- only problem is, the /second/ salvo of four now get to hit you before your next Abort comes up.

 

And, of course, you don't have an Abort left to activate any new Defensive Powers with, either.

 

> And the missiles will be easy to perceive as they take their

> 2-3 phases moving in [snip]

 

Gary, on its most immediately recent phase, that missile was over 1000 hexes away from you. Make your PER roll at -14 or worse.

 

I have no idea why you've decided to start ignoring the rules too, especially in a post where you said 'let's go strictly by the rules'.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Fine, we'll go strictly by the rules as you seem to want.

> Therefore the 1" jink will automatically make the missile

> miss.

 

Ummm... no.

 

Move-Through or Move-By Attack on the guy's hex -- I might not get the damage, but given that it's a No Range RKA, I'm obviously using the Move-By rules.

 

And that means i simply make an attack roll... vs your current hex.

 

You are not 'jinking'. You've already moved. This is /my/ move now.

 

I held my action and simply beat the missile in a dex roll. It goes rushing past me.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> And a 1" dive for cover will do so as well.

 

That works -- only problem is, the /second/ salvo of four now get to hit you before your next Abort comes up.

 

And, of course, you don't have an Abort left to activate any new Defensive Powers with, either.

 

Except that the pilots only have spd 3-4. The won't be able to launch another salvo before I go again. And even if they do, the next salvo will still take 2-3 phases to arrive.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> And the missiles will be easy to perceive as they take their

> 2-3 phases moving in [snip]

 

Gary, on its most immediately recent phase, that missile was over 1000 hexes away from you. Make your PER roll at -14 or worse.

 

I have no idea why you've decided to start ignoring the rules too, especially in a post where you said 'let's go strictly by the rules'.

 

I'm not ignoring the rules. Since the missiles have to physically transit the distance, I can make my perception roll anytime during their path. Even if it's point blank range. And if I've saved an action or abort, I'll be able to do any number of things to the missile before it reaches me, even if it's going at mach speeds.

[Chuckg]

> I held my action and simply beat the missile in a dex roll.

 

Your 15- vs. its 14-? You are taking a large risk.

 

That missile is DEX 23 SPD 6. While you are higher DEX and SPD than hit, you're not /so/ much higher that you still don't have to take it seriously.

 

[snip]

> Except that the pilots only have spd 3-4. The won't be able

> to launch another salvo before I go again.

 

"Maverick" launches a salvo on phase N. His buddy "Iceman" holds an action and launches a salvo on phase N+1.

 

Remember the basics -- if you are moving at agent SPDs, have mutiple agents stagger their actions.

 

> And even if they do, the next salvo will still take 2-3 phases

> to arrive.

 

What prevented them from simply firing a salvo, then immediately following it up with another, and then another... all before the first one finished arriving?

 

[snip]

> I'm not ignoring the rules. Since the missiles have to

> physically transit the distance, I can make my perception

> roll anytime during their path.

 

Yes, but that means you don't know they're there until the same phase they're gonna hit... ie., it's too late for anything but the Dive For Cover or equivalent.

 

It's /advance/ warning that you need to truly be safe, and that advance warning requires you to make the PER roll /last/ phase... i.e., when it was still 2 klicks or so out.

 

> Even if it's point blank range. And if I've saved an action or

> abort, I'll be able to do any number of things to the missile

> before it reaches me, even if it's going at mach speeds.

 

Yes, but then the follow-up waves eat you. It's not as if the concept of how to get missiles past a working point defense system is entirely alien to the USAF, to put it mildly.

 

And they are /not/ going to wait around for the first wave to finish missing before they even think of firing the second one.

[Agent X]

LL, if you are out there. I think it just comes down to this: Firewing isn't gonna get taken down by Hornets unless he is surprised. I think that "unless" is a mighty unlikely thing.

 

Firewing beats Hornets.

 

Firewing beats Tanks too.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Well, by the time it gets hit with the

> exhaust it's at it's target.

 

Nope -- the exhaust extends for 7" behind the plane in a line. Check the Side Effects on the F-18's own description.

 

That's 6" further away than Firewing's Force Wall is from Firewing.

Thanks for the trigger info and the info on the writeup. Do the planes actually have a 46' blowtorch out their butt?

 

I'm sticking with how I'd run it, but there's enough wiggle room elsewhere for everyone.

[Chuckg]

> Thanks for the trigger info and the info on the writeup. Do

> the planes actually have a 46' blowtorch out their butt?

 

Yup. It's bought as a Side Effect of their Flight -- a 2d6 RKA for a line of 7" straight behind the plane while flying.

 

Aka "jet wash".

 

Edit -- and yes, that's real-world. You stand too close behind a jet engine while it's on, you're gonna get fried.

[Chuckg]

> LL, if you are out there. I think it just comes down to this:

> Firewing isn't gonna get taken down by Hornets unless he is

> surprised. I think that "unless" is a mighty unlikely thing.

 

Right, because he's going to use that Danger Sense, or Telescopic Radar, or High Range Radio Perception, or all that other stove he doesn't have.

 

> Firewing beats Hornets.

 

If they're dumb enough to dogfight him, yes. There's a reason I've stayed strictly to using the Outer Air Battle... and that's because at nose-gun range, Firewing trashes them.

 

> Firewing beats Tanks too.

 

Actually, his best EB can't penetrate the tank on average. OTOH, they're not likely to hit /him/, either.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> I held my action and simply beat the missile in a dex roll.

 

Your 15- vs. its 14-? You are taking a large risk.

 

That missile is DEX 23 SPD 6. While you are higher DEX and SPD than hit, you're not /so/ much higher that you still don't have to take it seriously.

 

Or 17- with overall levels. Much less risk.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

[snip]

> Except that the pilots only have spd 3-4. The won't be able

> to launch another salvo before I go again.

 

"Maverick" launches a salvo on phase N. His buddy "Iceman" holds an action and launches a salvo on phase N+1.

 

Remember the basics -- if you are moving at agent SPDs, have mutiple agents stagger their actions.

 

They're only going to have 4 salvos of 4 then between them. Still not that difficult to deal with.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> And even if they do, the next salvo will still take 2-3 phases

> to arrive.

 

What prevented them from simply firing a salvo, then immediately following it up with another, and then another... all before the first one finished arriving?

 

Firing off *all* their missiles that quickly? Quite a risk. Especially since they'll all have to go through the explosions and damage shields before they reach.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

[snip]

> I'm not ignoring the rules. Since the missiles have to

> physically transit the distance, I can make my perception

> roll anytime during their path.

 

Yes, but that means you don't know they're there until the same phase they're gonna hit... ie., it's too late for anything but the Dive For Cover or equivalent.

 

It's /advance/ warning that you need to truly be safe, and that advance warning requires you to make the PER roll /last/ phase... i.e., when it was still 2 klicks or so out.

 

The DFC, or a held action.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Even if it's point blank range. And if I've saved an action or

> abort, I'll be able to do any number of things to the missile

> before it reaches me, even if it's going at mach speeds.

 

Yes, but then the follow-up waves eat you. It's not as if the concept of how to get missiles past a working point defense system is entirely alien to the USAF, to put it mildly.

 

And they are /not/ going to wait around for the first wave to finish missing before they even think of firing the second one.

 

I can fire my Explosion for 4 phases until all the missiles are exhausted. Any that might get through will be taken care of by my damage shield.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> LL, if you are out there. I think it just comes down to this:

> Firewing isn't gonna get taken down by Hornets unless he is

> surprised. I think that "unless" is a mighty unlikely thing.

 

Right, because he's going to use that Danger Sense, or Telescopic Radar, or High Range Radio Perception, or all that other stove he doesn't have.

 

> Firewing beats Hornets.

 

If they're dumb enough to dogfight him, yes. There's a reason I've stayed strictly to using the Outer Air Battle... and that's because at nose-gun range, Firewing trashes them.

 

> Firewing beats Tanks too.

 

Actually, his best EB can't penetrate the tank on average. OTOH, they're not likely to hit /him/, either.

He can fly right above the tank and haymaker his rka and toss in two levels to raise the attack one body: about 20 body so after two or three hits, he's gonna do the trick. Then everyone inside is facing a ton of stun. Or he could just fly over and push the tanks over.

[Chuckg]

> Or 17- with overall levels. Much less risk.

 

Erm? Thought you were saving those for DCV.

 

> They're only going to have 4 salvos of 4 then between

> them.

 

Yes, and that's assuming that it's only "Maverick" and "iceman".

 

If they scrambled a /squadron/, for example...

 

[snip]

> Firing off *all* their missiles that quickly? Quite a risk.

 

Not at all. This scenario presumed that Firewing was near enough to an Air Force base for the ready birds to reach him... i.e. there's lots more planes a-comin' in just a short while.

 

And it's not as if Firewing is the lead plane of an enemy attack force that they have to save missiles for. He's a known loner, by reputation. i.e. -- flush the ammo racks, it's what it's there for.

 

> Especially since they'll all have to go through the explosions

> and damage shields before they reach.

 

You just switched back to Firewing having some kind of advance warning.

 

The earliest he has any real chance to know of what's coming is the same Phase he gets hit in. That's time enough for /one/ action.

 

> I can fire my Explosion for 4 phases until all the missiles are

> exhausted. [snip]

 

You're SPD 7, not SPD 12. if they staggered them only one Segment apart, the second wave arrives while you're still waiting for your turn.

[Chuckg]

> He can fly right above the tank and haymaker his rka and

> toss in two levels to raise the attack one body: about 20

> body so after two or three hits, he's gonna do the trick.

 

?That/ works, yup. And they have nothing that attacks straight up, also yup.

 

Of course, I hope Firewing's more than 150-200 feet off the ground, or that tank's buddy tank over there is going to take a shot at him while he's winding up the Haymaker. (Wouldn't have much hope of hitting him if he /weren't/ standing still, but if he's winding up for a Haymaker, then...)

 

> Then everyone inside is facing a ton of stun. Or he could

> just fly over and push the tanks over.

 

That would take a litle more STR than Firewing has, but I suppose he could Push it. And yes, once inside the arc of fire for the main gun, the co-ax machine guns might as well be throwing jelly babies.

 

Definitely got a better chance vs. the tanks than the airplanes, for certain.

[Agent X]

I'm beginning to think there are serious character design flaws in CKC. Firewing can fly as fast as light in space but flies 154mph in an atmosphere. Warlord, the military power armor guy, doesn't have any telescopic vision. Dr. Destroyer has no knockback resistance. It seems like some little details here and there got missed.

 

Firewing, seems like most of us agree he can handle conventional military stuff.

 

Gravitar looks like she's got the defenses to laugh off the conventional military.

 

Takofanes, Dr. Destroyer, Menton, heh.

 

No problems for Warlord if he's got his Flying Fortress.

 

Istvatha V'Han is bringing her own military.

 

I'm thinking the Crowns of Krim wouldn't have too much trouble either. Dark Seraph, for example, has Desolid.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Or 17- with overall levels. Much less risk.

 

Erm? Thought you were saving those for DCV.

 

Why? As you've pointed out repeatedly, the attacks are area effect accurate. It's much safer jinking or blasting them first before they enter my hex.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> They're only going to have 4 salvos of 4 then between

> them.

 

Yes, and that's assuming that it's only "Maverick" and "iceman".

 

If they scrambled a /squadron/, for example...

 

A squadron is a different story.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

[snip]

> Firing off *all* their missiles that quickly? Quite a risk.

 

Not at all. This scenario presumed that Firewing was near enough to an Air Force base for the ready birds to reach him... i.e. there's lots more planes a-comin' in just a short while.

 

And it's not as if Firewing is the lead plane of an enemy attack force that they have to save missiles for. He's a known loner, by reputation. i.e. -- flush the ammo racks, it's what it's there for.

 

Ok, fair enough. Although the jets don't really know if Firewing is going to be alone...

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> Especially since they'll all have to go through the explosions

> and damage shields before they reach.

 

You just switched back to Firewing having some kind of advance warning.

 

The earliest he has any real chance to know of what's coming is the same Phase he gets hit in. That's time enough for /one/ action.

 

Either an explosion to take out the missiles, or a jink. Probably the explosion first.

 

Originally posted by Chuckg

> I can fire my Explosion for 4 phases until all the missiles are

> exhausted. [snip]

 

You're SPD 7, not SPD 12. if they staggered them only one Segment apart, the second wave arrives while you're still waiting for your turn.

 

And the pilots are spd 3-4, not 12. They *can't* fire them one per segment. Completely impossible no matter how you stagger them. The best they can do is the equivalent of 8 spd, by firing on segments 3,4,6,7,9,10,12,12. That's assuming 4 spd pilots. If they were 3 spd pilots, the best they can do is 4,5,8,9,12,12.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> LL, if you are out there. I think it just comes down to this:

> Firewing isn't gonna get taken down by Hornets unless he is

> surprised. I think that "unless" is a mighty unlikely thing.

 

Right, because he's going to use that Danger Sense, or Telescopic Radar, or High Range Radio Perception, or all that other stove he doesn't have.

 

> Firewing beats Hornets.

 

If they're dumb enough to dogfight him, yes. There's a reason I've stayed strictly to using the Outer Air Battle... and that's because at nose-gun range, Firewing trashes them.

 

> Firewing beats Tanks too.

 

Actually, his best EB can't penetrate the tank on average. OTOH, they're not likely to hit /him/, either.

 

Frankly, this just about confirms what I would want to do with Firewing: add a few more dice to his EB, maybe 5-10 more DEF in his FF, and a few NCM to his Flight. (Sounds like some Enhanced Perception might come in handy, too, but I think I can get by.)

 

Throw in my house rules for Haymaker and Real Weapon and he should be good to go. Thanks!

[Chuckg]

> I'm beginning to think there are serious character design

> flaws in CKC. Firewing can fly as fast as light in space but

> flies 154mph in an atmosphere.

 

If he got an errata writeup that gave him Mach 5 worth of NC or MegaScale flight, I wouldn't complain much, even if it did mean that the USAF now had no chance. I'm just currently working with what's currently written.

 

> Warlord, the military power armor guy, doesn't have any

> telescopic vision.

 

My own theory on that is that he sees his major role in that suit as Close-Quarters Battle... if it's an artillery duel, that's a job for the Flying Fortress with him on the command bridge, not for his suit alone.

 

> Dr. Destroyer has no knockback resistance.

 

Special effect of his suit being so light -- remember, he isn't wearing big clunky power armor, he's wearing a nanotech sheath that's virtually a second skin. Helps to amp the portability and ease of use a lot, i'm sure, but it also means that he hasn't got much extra mass to soak with.

 

And if he anticipates needing any KB resistance for a certain special encounter, such as, oh, if he's fighting Knockback Boy and his dreaded 12d6 Double KB Energy Blast... well, then he just does a VPP Gadget Pool allocation called "Inertial Dampener Module", and loads up as many inches of KB resistance as he wants to pay for.

 

> It seems like some little details here and there got missed.

 

Little details always get missed, but that's not necessarily a resaon to call away "serious design flaws".

 

[snip]

> Gravitar looks like she's got the defenses to laugh off the

> conventional military.

 

Agreed, unless she's idiot enough to play catch with nukes... which she's not.

 

> Takofanes, Dr. Destroyer, Menton, heh.

 

The first two just walk through armies, the third can't be found unless he wants to be. Agreed.

 

> No problems for Warlord if he's got his Flying Fortress.

 

Which he does. The Warlord's not much of a solo villain.

 

[snip]

> I'm thinking the Crowns of Krim wouldn't have too much

> trouble either. Dark Seraph, for example, has Desolid.

 

Not to mention all those Transformations -- with the excepion of Ecilpse they can all arrive unseen in human form, morph out, rampage, morph back down, and get lost. And Eclipse, natch, has his own ways of getting around.

 

The Crowns are a good example of why hero teams still find steady work.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Frankly, this just about confirms what I would want to do with Firewing: add a few more dice to his EB, maybe 5-10 more DEF in his FF, and a few NCM to his Flight. (Sounds like some Enhanced Perception might come in handy, too, but I think I can get by.)

 

Throw in my house rules for Haymaker and Real Weapon and he should be good to go. Thanks!

He's supposed to be able to give DD pause. I'd be generous on an upgrade.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Agent X

I'm beginning to think there are serious character design flaws in CKC. Firewing can fly as fast as light in space but flies 154mph in an atmosphere. Warlord, the military power armor guy, doesn't have any telescopic vision. Dr. Destroyer has no knockback resistance. It seems like some little details here and there got missed.

I think you're right. If you want the villians to be taken care of by PCs instead of the military.

[Chuckg]

> And the pilots are spd 3-4, not 12. They *can't* fire them

> one per segment.

 

One pilot fires 1 salvo of four missiles on segment 3, let's say.

 

Another one holds for a Segment and fires 1 salvo of four missiles on segment 4.

 

When they arrive on, oh, let's say Segments 9 and 10... what's Firewing going to do? He dives/jinks/aborts/blows away the first salvo... fine. The second one will arrive before his next action, and he's already used his abort.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> And the pilots are spd 3-4, not 12. They *can't* fire them

> one per segment.

 

One pilot fires 1 salvo of four missiles on segment 3, let's say.

 

Another one holds for a Segment and fires 1 salvo of four missiles on segment 4.

 

When they arrive on, oh, let's say Segments 9 and 10... what's Firewing going to do? He dives/jinks/aborts/blows away the first salvo... fine. The second one will arrive before his next action, and he's already used his abort.

 

He uses his held action to stop the first salvo, and his abort to stop the second. And leaves his firewall as a last ditch defense.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Gary

He uses his held action to stop the first salvo, and his abort to stop the second. And leaves his firewall as a last ditch defense.

 

/nods/

 

Thus endeth the first pass.

 

Next round, he's going to get two ripples of two... from two different axes of attack. That'll take, hm, a minimum of two two-plane elements.

 

So far, I think we're establishing that *if* Firewing gets ample forewarning, he can survive a pair of fighters, but a squadron's going to really make him sweat.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Chuckg

/nods/

 

Thus endeth the first pass.

 

Next round, he's going to get two ripples of two... from two different axes of attack. That'll take, hm, a minimum of two two-plane elements.

 

So far, I think we're establishing that *if* Firewing gets ample forewarning, he can survive a pair of fighters, but a squadron's going to really make him sweat.

 

I'm not arguing that at all. And I realize that Firewing as he's currently written only fights the pair of fighters to a stalemate (unless he finds where their base is and takes out the fighters on the ground). Firewing simply doesn't have enough movement to fight air to air battles except defensively.

[Agent X]

Now for some self-aggrandizement I consider Professor Polaris vs. the military. He's gonna notice that fighter before the fighter notices him. He can be anywhere on the planet in one phase. He can create 256 likenesses of himself. He can fly behind the fighters and proceed to gently lay them down on the ground after removing their engines.